star49-Let me understand you correctly- the RuAF fighters taking off in Russia and flying into Western Europe, are going to have longer legs than fighters that took off in Western Europe?:rolleyes:
All fighters in Western EU currently has shorter legs than Ruaf fighters.
-Are you saying that the A-50 is gonna be operating over Western Europe too?
A-50 has comparatively longer range radar than any other AWACS. it can see things further.
-Unless you’re counting on weapons that you think are operational, and with the sorts of ranges you’ve claimed(though without one iota of proof), then there’s not gonna be a range advantage of AAMs.
Why should Russian should show weopons which are not for export? We have weopons but we cannot show it.
Athens, on October 7. ([Korr].[ARMS]- TASS). Russian armaments are located on the world level and are not inferior to western analogs, corr. of [ARMS]- TASS on the 15th international exhibition of armaments and military equipment “[Defendori] 2008” the head of Russian delegation, the director of the Federal Service for the military- technical collaboration ([FSVTS] of Russia) Mikhail Dmitriev.
“We cannot each year show abroad something [supernovoe], although our developers have very interesting developments in many regions”, it noted head [FSVTS].
“As a whole we keep abreast of all remaining countries, which are the important producers of armaments. We do not have large delays on to what that determinate directions”, he emphasized.
According to [M].[Dmitrieva], Russian defense industry today has deep modernizations along many consisting in arsenal systems.
“Our industry already has the specific modifications of the existing weapon systems. Moreover, there are completely new weapon systems, which in the very near future will be shown”, he emphasized head [FSVTS
-I’m gonna have to put my money on a B-52-B-1B, B-2 force, for endurance, payload, weapon variety/effectiveness. With the exception of the B-2, no bomber is gonna penetrate the airspace in a non-permissive environment(though the B-1B’s low altitude/high speed might pose a good challenge for air defenses).
Ur putting money on wrong place. Russia test weopons in more realistic enviornment based on real life assumptions. Su-34 is designed to pentrate dense AAW environment.
-Flying in a simulator is better than nothing, but it can’t replace the real thing, and Western pilots get considerably more flight hours than their Russian counterparts, and are considerably less dependant on GCI.
Surely u know more than Ruaf commanders who put new pilots through simulators for MIG-31. There is limited ways of managing/driving a fighter. Mission planning, EW, communication, navigation and weopons are far more important. And now fighters like Su-27SM/Su-34 are equiped with artificial intelligence for automated execution of various functions.
And it is pure nonsense that Only Russian Pilots are GCI dependent. The era of MIG-21/MIG-23/MIG-29 is long gone and even MIG-29 is guided by other fighters in group action mode.
With adance datalinks and Radar upgrades they are more concentrating on independent actions with long range shots.
star49They’d have a fuel advantage, not to mention the IADS/ground based radars.
Even in neutral environment. Ruaf would have advantage over any NATO opponent. MIG-31/Su-27 simply have longer legs with longer weopons in operations both for AAM & AtoG. Same is true for high power A-50. which can see further than NATO AWACS. Most of bomber force is Supersonic so can deliver more tonnage per day basis vs B-52/B-2. Russians give raw power of sensors, speed and longer range of aircraft the most importance. So future fleet of MIG-31BM/Su-34/PAK-FA/Su-27SM2 will have distinct advantage over NATO aircraft like JSF/F-22/EF/Rafale/F-18E. And also land based aircraft are more suitable for antiship/ASW role along with fleet defence.
NATO forces assume that they will always have access to friendly airbases and airspace along with tanker/AWACS support to make up of shorter leg aircraft but Russian assumes that there economic/military power along with space based survellence will prempt that possibility fo sudden attack and neutralize the friendly enviornment.
I suspect the western pilots are much more proficient on a per capita basis though.
Western pilots are no more proficient on per capita basis just like Olympic athletes. And Russians are using advance simulators to make for certain skills.
u dont need to produce exact number of flying hours to produce the same result.
star49why they put 2014 deliveries date.It takes couple of years of training for new aircraft operational.
star49I love this – Soviets topple existing government and eventually withdraw leaving what? The basis for the rise of extreme political Islam. What a victory that was!
As for ultimatiums, I have heard this before. You may be right, but then other ultimatiums haven’t amounted to much, so who is going to believe you?
u seem to right ur own history. Any weak government that does not standup to islamist must be toppled. and that was clear victor when u look at results.
Soviet Union was not a failed superpower. Without Soviet Science we would still be using black and white windows and 486 chips.
Utimatum works. After Russia cutoff for Ukriane in winter. Russia will continue to create such examples for others. Germany and others got the message and no further expansion of NATO.
Really, NATO is a big organisation, much bigger than a single failed superpower. Parts of it may have left themselves in an awkward position wrt Russia, but NATO is bigger than a few European countries.
PS: things NEVER change permantly – the flow of history and all that.
NATO is collection of debt ridden countries. NATO isnt much bigger than few EU countries. Russia is taking practical steps to diversify its trade along with some countries are also doing the same. Those who are left will face the consequences of next conflict. UK/France has zero role to play in Middeternain and Black sea.
http://en.apa.az/news.php?id=89768
[ 07 Oct 2008 18:59 ]
Baku hosts North-South Corridor trilateral meeting
What utter trash, though it may have played a role. Just as significant, if not more so, was US influence on post-war European policies. it was the US who put the kibosh on Suez, because THEY held the influence (money that we desperately needed. It most certainly was not the military capabilities of Eygpt or Soviets that stopped that.
Why did US did that to UK/France because it was afraid that Soviets will take advantage of it and escalate it at another place. That is the advantage of global super power rathert than small size state.
star49Sure, and turkey alone have 48 medium range and 86 short range SAM batteries that are relatively modern.
Of course they also have 218 F16’s, 123 F4’s and 87 F5’s. The F4’s and F5’s all heavily upgraded by israel.
First these aircrafts are no match to Ruaf and Russian airdefences that can deal with 5th genration threats. secon
Niether Turkey and Israel is going to fight Russia so Russia is free to go against any EU countries. those days of EU economic and security gurantees are permanently over
Plus there are not all that many Mig 31’s and their long range missiles (their only advantage) are designed for shooting down bombers not fighters.
MIG-31 is part of every exercises and they are designed to take care of any attack including from 5th generation fighters.
Wait, when you LOST in afganistan? or when you let irregular troops run riot in Chechniya to finish off the seperatists that the russian army couldn’t beat?
What do you call Northern Ireland?
They havent lost in Afghanistan. There loyal suppporters are part of government still. And that was War fully funded and supported by West against Russians. Russia is waiting for certain decision wrt to Eastern EU from EU countries before it gives final ultimatum wrt to Afghanistan. NATO cannot survive for even a single month if Russia chose to take sides. things have changed permanently. better wake up to new reality.
http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/asection/la-fg-sevastopol28-2008sep28,0,2204314.story
SEVASTOPOL, UKRAINE — Skimming the Black Sea aboard a military motorboat, Russian navy spokesman Igor Dygalo turned to an entourage of television cameras. “The dirty ones, those are the Ukrainian ships,” he said with a light smirk. “The clean ones are Russian.”
“The military budget will be revisited so that we can exploit these ships better and build new ships,” said Dygalo, aboard the Moskva. “The attitude toward the international situation has changed, of course. We understand quite well that Russia came under pressure.”
Decolonisation was going to happen anyway, it began in the 1940’s straight after World War 2, the british just stuck around long enough in their former colonies to remove the insurgent before giving them independence, and the wonderful people from Afghanistan are if anything going to hate Russians more then they hate NATO.
Decolonization would not have happened without overhleming Soviet threat to EU. EU militaries would have free to pursue the same policies just like before first second world war.
All Islamic countries are very gratefull to Russia as the first to recognize and fight the Islamic threat which destroys there social fabric. U will not find a single criticism from any islamic country with respect to Russian action in Georgia and for that matter gas price increase for EU. Russia has all the support. As soon as Russian port and transport infrasctructure is built. It will deal very differently with countries of Middeternian and Black Sea. These countries economic expansion and depression will solely depends on Russia as Russia has choice but these countries dont.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/10/05/AR2008100501252.html
You mean a miscalculation by President [Mikheil] Saakashvili was behind the events in August?
The miscalculation was made by all parties involved in the military action. Including Russia?
Of course not. The miscalculation had everything to do with [Georgia] not expecting the Russians to deal with this in such a fashion. And the supporters [are also at fault].
star491) and your pipelines, airforce bases and naval ships are under their nose.
Surely if u can pass the ring of MIG-31 and mobile SAMs system of Russian air defence while Russia is practically free to maul the whole Middleast along with tankers in open seas.. EU is completely at mercy of Russia. Turkey knows it and Israel knows it but deluded politicians of EU havent catchup with this reality. Always find themselevs in situation with pants down.
http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,577920,00.html
And whenever the Europeans criticize his government, Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan grumbles that Turkey has an alternative and could align itself with another country. There’s little doubt he’s referring to Russia
2) And how long were they in the field for? having them jump out of an aeroplane and spending 1 or 2 days out in a relatively tame (non-combat situation etc) is slightly different then several thousand men combat jumping out of an aircraft, then having to be supplied completely by air, in an area completely dominated by opposition air cover.
One thing is for sure they are far better than any EU force anywhere in the world. They spent 10 to 20 years fighting wars that EU can only dream off if Russia chose to take on the other side.
3) Play the numbers game, then look at the quality of the equipment both sides have and maybe you wont be so boastful.
Dont have the money to moblize even 100 tanks.
4) Which carriers did Russia find? Wait, your 4,000-5,000 landing force on poti and 10,000 or so soldiers coming from overland did not outnumber their adversaries? Most of whom were probably still sitting in their barracks around Georgia (not that georgia is a big place, its absolutely tiny by australian standards). What Russian supported enemy can’t the UK and France defeat?
Read Iran/Algeria/ Suez canal crisesVietnam. It is Soviet Union(Russia) efforts that decolonize the whole Africa.
Once Russia put its foot on Syria and turn the screws on afghanistan there is little West can do but ask for mercy.
star49IMF 2007:
Germany $3,322,147 million (world #3)
UK $2,772,570 million (world #5)
France $2,560,255 million (world #6)
Russia $1,289,582 million (world #11)Next. And yes, i know you’re actually talking about growth rates. Very long way to go.
This is pure nonsense. It is based on same economic principle that led to current credit crises. Where debt creation is equated with Wealth.
UK/France/Germany are very poor countries. There GDP cannot exist without debt. And IMF will be the least credible authoirty as far as Russia is concerned.
http://www.rbcnews.com/free/20081003182420.shtml
star49What? You’re joking, aren’t you? Either that, or you have no idea how many commercial airliners are operating in Russia nowadays, & how the number compares with W. European countries.
Russias civil air fleet nowadays is dwarfed by W. Europe.
Your military budget figure doesn’t prove what you think it does. What it shows is that despite spending a much higher percentage of GDP, Russian spending is of the same order of magnitude as one large W. European country. Count them. How many are there? And than add in the middling & small countries.
Like the civil air fleets, it places Russia on the same scale in terms of economy & mobilisable resources as one major W. European country.
Russian Civial fleet is Soviet vintage but still very large. Much better financial condition than bankrupt Western EU fleets. didnot Alitalia tried to sell to Aerofloat. Russia has much larger real GDP than France/UK/Germany combined. These countries have negative GDP on real basis. Debt increase per year is more than GDP increase per year.
$100K S- Class does not mean $100K GDP as it included input from energy/labor/materials.
star49Meaningless gibberish from someone all too adept at it.
You cannot drop paratroops unless you can:
a) provide, at least, a neutral air environment
b) support them logistically
what is mean by neutral environment. russia can create neutral enviornment as its oil fields are far away but all the neigboring nations pipelines and sea fleests are under its nose.
Russia has no power projection capability over water and, without that, any air-dropped bridgehead is doomed to fail. You cant resupply anything more than light infantry by air alone and that is IF Russia had the capability to establish local air parity over a distant location. Which I dont see how they would accomplish without real carriers…not an overblown ‘aviation cruiser’.
Surely u havent been to this year crimean exercises. Thousands of airdrops were involved.
Other than that they can go overland West and see what Poles with long memories would do to them until NATO jump in, South West and see what the Turks would do to them until NATO jump in or South East and let the Chinese chew them up.
These countries will not survive for single day for full frontal assualt. Turks knows it and Isrealis knows. Poles have 5 decades to go to match these two countries. Chinese are living on left over pieces of Russian science. Simply no match for them.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/israel/3146921/Israel-to-press-Russia-not-to-sell-air-defences-to-Iran.html
Ehud Olmert, on his final foreign trip as prime minister before a new coalition government is confirmed, flew to Moscow to urge Mr Medvedev not to sell weapons to “irresponsible elements”.It is feared Israel will see the proposed sale of a sophisticated version of the S-300 surface-to-air missile system as a reason to expedite plans for an attack on Iran.
“We will remind them again of matters that trouble us greatly,” Mr Olmert said
Still this is from the chap who imagines 50 Russian ocean recon sats are in orbit (still waiting for the launch dates on those!) and that the Russian armed forces are bound to be able to find USN carrier groups because they can find Japanese fishermen fishing illegally!.
This from person who claimed that Russians cannot find carriers. didnot they collapsed the Georgian army in less than 3 days without overhelming force in mountainous train. which UK/France cannot do in a decade when opponent is supported by Russia.
star491) Please compare the combat strength of the russian airforce with that of Turkey, Greece, Germany, Italy etc combined. Same for Army.
Even if NATO some how manage political and economic will these aircrafts are no match for MIG-31/Su-27. and they have decades of experiance on them. All these countries including Israel now live on good will of Russia.
2) Russia has around 260 Transport aircraft total, the most of which would be either down for maintenance or because the aircrew don’t have enough hours up. <– UK has 59 counting the 6 C17’s but not counting the 57 BA 747’s which can carry over 17,000 people at a time if all in the air at once plus the numerous freight companies. France has 81 Transport Aircraft (most are smaller though), again not counting Air France or the aircraft of any other airlines.
Yeah. Russians still operate Tu-154. u working on dubious assumptions. Russian transport fleet is the best in the world.
3) Most of the Russian Cruise missiles are not sea skimming so plenty of warning would be given from AWACs aircraft if a missile strike from long range was attempted by russian submarines (a launch from surface forces would be suicidal). Oh, and a launch by the black sea fleet would have to fly over turkish airspace and would be a declaration of war on all of NATO, not just the UK + France.
Provided that AWACS survive MIG-31BM.
star49In 2007, the IISS reported that Russia had 210 Il-76, about a dozen An-124, & a few An-22 & An-12. The serviceability of the last two is uncertain.
EU countries had 4 C-17, 190 C-130, & 148 Transall. NATO Europe had slightly more, about 200 C-130 & 160 Transall.
Adding in civil transport aircraft would change the balance considerably against Russia.
There are total 500 IL-76 in service with Russia that include aeroflot/polyt/volgdenpr with 80 service centers and there is alteast 30 An-124 in total. I am not even going into IL-96 fleet. Russians aircraft are more suitable for rough field performance. There were 120K para drops this year. And in very short notice they can moblize 100K troops. u dont have anything on this scale.
star49France and the UK both have the will and capability to oppose Russia both in the eastern mediteranean as well as the black sea. The UK have an Airbase and naval base in cyprus for one thing, a base that could match any proposed russian base in Syria.
ur seriously mistaken of either Turkey or Greece will chose UK/France over Russia. Infact Turks have thrown out French from any business project because of Armenian issue. It is the enormous economic and military power of Russia that it cannot do anything.
The UK controls the entrance to the mediteranean sea because it holds the rock of gibraltar where it can base both aircraft (big RAF base there) and surface ships to blockade the entrance to the mediteranean. The UK has two carriers with a third available with notice, and the french have one, a total of 4 carriers available with warning, 2-3 without warning.
UK does not control anything. Russia has 500 Strategic airlift capability. It can airlift massive amounts of troops and supplies to libya and Algeria and its submarines/ships/fighters are equiped with much longer range cruise missiles. Not only date real time space assets that it can quickly concentrate on zone of interest.
Additional to that, as turkey is a NATO power, both the UK and France could potentially also base assets in turkey itself, not to mention when you add in Spain, Italy, Greece and Turkey with several dozen frigates and 3-4 Aircraft Carriers between them.
Yeah try to base it in Turky against Russia anything. Even US will be not allowed to do anything against Russia. U havent seen 3 visits of Turkish leaders in less than 5 months to Russia.
By the time Russia was able to find the funding and men to reactivate and modernise that base, the UK will probably have all its T45’s in service, the FSC ships will be entering service, CVF will be entering service and most of the Astutes will be in service.
France and Italy will have all their FREMM’s by then as well.
(sorry for the bad grammer, posted in a hurry)
Russia is doing it very fast and can airlift stuff. I doubt US can spare airlift capability for UK/France on scale required. as it is tied down in Irak/Afghanistan.
star49Well, we all know now where the awards for ‘most ridiculous post‘ and ‘most ridiculous poster‘ are going! :diablo:
I think that title is more appropriate for starting this ridculous thread. Both UK/France combined do not have the will and capability to oppose Russia in Blacksea or any other place in the World nor they are increasing marine. these can only fight small scale wars on there tiny budgets. No mass invasions. On other hand Russia taking practicall steps for next Blacksea/Mediterrnain conflict by first building port and transport infrascturcture in North and far east on massive scale. u dont do trade where u want create warzone and blockades. Other Black sea nations donot have that choice. they have to live with it. what i read they want put 11 SSK permanently. It is very likely peace agreement between Israel/Syria as Israel doesnot want to take sides in this conflict and has initiated visa free travel with Russia so Russia can obtain and exploit Western technology much easily.
star49100 Warships? I assume most of those will be FAC’s with SSM’s and no Air Defenses that will receive the same treatment as Iraq’s FAC’s in both Guilf Wars? Sea Squa and Penguin FTW!
Russia is creating Supershipyards with South Koreans firms and will give employments to NK. There is no shortage of men/material/capital/transport route to transform into world largest shipbuilding nation overnight and make EU competely depended on Russia and economically irrelevant as for Russia own prosperity is concerned. It is totally unique economic system.
http://www.korea.net/news/news/newsView.asp?serial_no=20080930017&part=101&SearchDay=&page=1&source=Cheong%20Wa%20Dae
Korea, Russia agree on upgraded strategic cooperative partnership
Yes Irak had hundreds of unlimited range antiship missiles backed by MIG-31/Su-27/backfires/A-50/Satellites. In any event of escalation Russia will impose premptive blockade on anything commercial. Batteries of S-400/MIG-31/Su-27/Bation costal defensce system in Syria could hinder airtraffic and marine traffic hundreds of kms into Mediteranian. Newer version of long range SAMs are both for air and surface targets.
http://rusnavy.com/news/navy/index.php?ELEMENT_ID=5645
Navy chief says Russia could have 100 warships in Ukraine
30.05.2008
Source: en.rian.ruThe Russian Navy commander said on Friday the Black Sea Fleet could increase the number of warships at its base in Sevastopol, in Ukraine’s Crimea, to 100.
“The base agreement enables us to have up to 100 warships in the Black Sea Fleet, compared to the current figure of only 35; we may also have up to 25,000 personnel, while currently we only have 11,000,” Admiral Vladimir Vysotsky told reporters in Bishkek, the capital of Kyrgyzstan.
He said Russia needs the Black Sea Fleet to protect its national interests.
“Russia has strategic interests in the world’s oceans, and it will defend them. We will be enlarging our presence.”
“The Black Sea Fleet will remain in any event. And it will not simply remain, but will develop,” he said, adding that Russia does not intend to withdraw its fleet from Sevastopol before the base agreement expires in 2017.
The Black Sea Fleet currently uses a range of naval facilities on the Crimean peninsula under an agreement signed in 1997. Ukrainian President Viktor Yushchenko recently ruled not to extend the lease for Russia’s Black Sea Fleet beyond May 28, 2017.
Frequent disputes have flared up between Russia and Ukraine over the lease of the naval facilities on the Crimean peninsula. In the latest row, Moscow Mayor Yury Luzhkov was barred from entering the former Soviet republic over his vociferous calls for the disputed ownership of a Russian naval base in Sevastopol to be transferred back to Russia.
Ukraine has been seeking NATO membership and EU integration ever since pro-Western President Yushchenko came to power on the back of the “orange revolution” in 2004.
Russia has repeatedly dismissed Ukraine’s NATO bid as a violation of bilateral friendship agreements and said it will do all in its power to prevent Ukraine from joining NATO.
Admiral Vysotsky arrived in Kyrgyzstan on Thursday to discuss the expansion of military-technical cooperation and strengthening of regional security with Kyrgyz top military officials.
Russia currently has 41 intergovernmental agreements with Kyrgyzstan on security cooperation. Both countries are members of the two major regional security blocs in Central Asia – the Collective Security Treaty Organization (CSTO) and the Shanghai Cooperation Organization (SCO).
http://www.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idUSLR39985220080827
DAMASCUS (Reuters) – The Russian navy will make more use of Syrian ports as part of increased military presence in the Mediterranean, a Russian diplomat said on Wednesday
star49They may be able to base some equipment in Syria, but they would be pretty limited by that. If this were the RN thread, I would suggest putting a couple of Nimrods and Typhoons on Cyprus, to go out and sink them. Since this is the MN thread, I suggest pretty much the same thing; put a couple of Atlantiques on Cyprus (or similar) along with a few Rafales. Even if they put submarines in their Syrian base, that can be dealt with, a combined Turkish, Greek, Italian, French, Spanish, British and American effort would see literally dozens of MPAs flying over the whole of the Mediterranean. In effect, with modern sensors, I don’t expect a few Russian subs to last very long in the enclosed waters.
If and when Russia enters Syria it wont be limited. It will have all the airsupport/airsfence support with thousands of tropps permanently stationed with long range billistic and cruise missiles. Russia has recognized that Syria is the choking point for all Black sea states epecially Eastern EU.
Russian Admiral has clearly stated that Black sea fleet at Crimea alone will be increased to 100 Warships and 25,000 armed men. u cannot expect Turkey that has bend on its knees without even Russia cutting gas supplies to do fighting for West when bankrupt EU cannot economically support Turkey when Russian tightens screws.
http://www.worldbulletin.net/news_detail.php?id=28689
The Turkish foreign minister said late on Tuesday that every one should be aware of Russia’s power
In effect, we can, for a variety of good reasons, pretty much discount the Russian Black Sea and Baltic fleets, and any potential Mediterranean fleet. The two fleets that actually represent any true threat are the Northern (Atlantic) and Pacific fleets. Pacific fleet will be left to the Pacific nations, and there are plenty there. The Northern fleet is the true threat, and it still faces a heck of a lot of difficulty doing anything. They face a much better equipped Norwegian fleet, probably the German, Dutch and even Danish fleets, plus the British, American, Canadian, French and even Spanish fleets. Unless the Russians can assemble the kind of fleet they had in the bad old days, then it can be dealt with.
How u can discount black Sea fleet .where the whole purpose of Black sea fleet is to contain EU trade and energy supplies? Russia will never again allow EU to stand on its own feet for the same purpose they entered libya to control gas supplies to Italy. and will soon support Oil and gas pipelines from Iran/Irak to Syrian ports bypassing Persian gulf and Turkey.
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