Get real Star! Russia is not going to use any bullying/blackmail tactics in order to get overflight permission. The easy option for the Russians this time is to use Iranian airspace as they originally planned back in 2003. With the current tensions with Russia, the U.S. will likely ask the Afghan government to deny use of airspace. If nothing else then purely for the annoyance factor. If anything Russia would use bribes to the Afghan and Pakistan governments for the use of their airspace just to annoy the U.S.
TJ
Iranain option is the most difficult one. Russia bomber overflights over Iranian airspace will give very negative signal to persian gulf monarchies who still have some influence left on global oil price. and with collapsing world demand the last thing Russian want to do is annoy them & there is some other issues. That time hasnt come yet. That will be fundamental shift in policy. which is possible but why risk it
U have to understand that Afghan government especially the Norther alliance (whose dominant part is tajik) is as much beholden to Russia as Karzai is to US.
Of course they have to ask permission for use of Afghan airspace. The Russians had to ask permission and file flight plans for the 2003 mission to fly over Afghanistan and Pakistan. All were agreed beforehand. If you hadn’t noticed it is a violation of territorial airspace if not done.
If you hadn’t noticed these are peacetime operations requiring full cooperation from all parties regarding their national airspace. Afghanistan is not a member of CSTO and that organisation has no juridisction over Afghan airspace. The Coalition and ISAF currently controls the airspace on behalf of the Afghan government. Do you not think that an F-16, etc wouldn’t be tasked to investigate aircraft not under control of the military ATC? The Coalition provides the same service to the Iraqi government.
http://ramcc.dtic.mil/afghan_AIP_12May05.pdf
The Russian Air Force commander, Vladimir Mikhailov, gave an interview after the 2003 Indian Ocean exercises. He said there were no any problems with permissions. “we asked and got it” he said. They flew using “standard international routes”. They took the route of Kazakhstan, Turkmenistan, Afghanistan and Pakistan.
TJ
And u havent noticed that Russians have Veto at UN. They could refuse to extend UN mission there and make the whole thing illegal. Afghanistan/Pakistan governments does not really have choice Russia can block even Civillian traffic for them if they refuse to cooperate. These countries need electicity from Russian build dams in Tajikistan. Russia policy is based on strict give and take. Any refusal has consequences.
Star, You are living in a dream world. Get back to me when Russia imposes a no-fly zone to prevent NATO aircraft transiting to Afghanistan. The debate is about Russia seeking permission for use of airspace in order to get strategic bombers out into the Indian Ocean. Russia has two options. Either annoy the U.S. by asking the Afghan government, or take the easy route out through Iran.
TJ
Iran route is the longest route if they didnot adopt it in 2003. there is no chance of adopting it again if they are going to Indian ocean. Russia is cooperating with NATO for its own interest to clean the mess untill it becomes more manageable. and at that time they will refuse to cooperate so NATO can neither move forward nor backward but stuck for ever. There is no need to ask Afghanistan as it has no ability to intercept Russian bombers when escorted by fighters under CSTO.
What does the Su-27 have that compares with the GBU-28? AGM-154? LJDAM? GBU-39? AGM-158?
There is nothing special about these weopons. mostly short range subsonic weopons. any high end integrated airdefense will shoot it down. u need weopons that are the longest range and highest speed for impact and decrease response time against time sensitive targets.
So what weapons are actually in the RuAF inventory? Are we just gonna assume that because export weapons are available, that there must be all sorts of other super secret squirrel weaponry, that only the RuAF has?
Multiple assumptions are being made here-
-the fact that Russian arms companies have offered weapons with X capability for export, is being used as the proof that not only does the RuAF also have these weapons, but with far superior performance.
Ruaf official has clearly said that there Flanker is the best with longest range weopons. There is no need to further challenge that statement. Similar statement is made with reference to Iskander missile. and it includes to nearly all the weopons.
I don’t dispute that export models MAY be detuned from the Russian spec. I don’t believe that Russian versions of missiles/radars have 100s of km range advantages over the export models. I also don’t believe that every weapon that is for sale, has been bought by the RuAF, or that the entire Russian inventory is updated every 18months. How many SU-35/MIG-35s are the RuAF buying exactly?
TMC head has clearly stated that Kh-31AD range for export is twice with biggger warhed for export. So why do u think Russian versions will not far exceed it. Most of weopons for sale are export derivates of Russian own developments. There is no such thing as separate export product.
In summary- lack of publicity, is not proof of existence
Su-35/MIG-35 are not in state defense order. Su-27SM/Su-34/MIG-31BM/Tu-22 upgrades are included.
Even the HMS are improved. Su-27SM has longer range, faster acceleration, longer engine life, further radar and IRST ranges, more EW, communication and navigation system. more automation than any export Flanker but cost fraction of them. It is Russian way of doing business. There is no such thing as so called offsets or high end technology transfer. And they openly say so that export fighters are inferior in combat effectiveness. So they may have canards/TVC/phased array/heavier weights but end result is different. There will be alot other unknowns as they have clearly said there fighters upgrade potential is limit less.
http://www.royfc.com/news/nov/1805nov01.html
The avionics was upgraded for increase the aircraft’s survivability in conditions of intensive electronic countermeasures on the part of an enemy, the cockpit’s instrumentation was revised owing to the assembly of multifunctional liquid crystal displays, an in-flight refueling system was installed, and the ejection seat and the helmet-mounted sight were improved
http://www.royfc.com/news/jan/1405jan01.html
The airplane’s highly intelligent computer complex allows performing this work in an automated mode. That is, the pilot can concentrate his attention either on flying or on destruction of the targets. The computer does part of the work for him. In which connection, as the designers say, it is so independent, that it will be able to correct a man’s actions for more effective accomplishment of the combat mission. The Su-27SM exceeds the most modern export works of the Sukhoy firm in its combat effectiveness – the Su-30MKI and Su-30MKK fighters being delivered to India and China, but it costs an order less than them
It is among first fighter with dual glonass/navstar navigation system with groupd action mode.
http://www.royfc.com/news/jan/2405jan01.html
The effectiveness of the airman’s operation is assured owing to the creation of new cockpit instrumentation, the increase of the targeting and navigational system’s precision and the use of servicing regimens which are resolved via the use of two additional SUV-P computerized weapons control systems, and the installation of the A-737 satellite navigation system (SNS) which works with the GLONASS and NAVSTAR systems
Telecode ((TELEKODOVAYA)) communications apparatus provides communications with controllers and between airplanes in the air, the exchange of information between airplanes of a group, assessment of targets and target designation in combat and even control of the relative position of a group’s airplanes is realized in “group actions” mode.
http://www.royfc.com/news/jan/1905jan01.html
Take that upgrade into the Su-27SM variant. The aircraft lifts 8 tonnes of ammunition – air-to-air and air-to-ground missiles and guided and unguided weaponry – any missions are within its capabilities. They have strengthened the landing gear and other elements at the plant, and it, having left the enterprise, receives a life span of 12 years. Almost like a new one. And the expenses for it, in comparison with a new aircraft, are seven times less. But it, this upgraded Su-27SM, meets all the requirements of a new airplane and even, if you will excuse me, spits further than the Su-30MKK and Su-30MKI taken together. Because we put into it all the best of them. And this is the optimal variant of an upgrade.
And how much of them are operationally used and not just mock-ups or prototypes which never made it into service?
These are all cleared for export. offcourse Ruaf inventory is different matter as no one will know just MIG-31BM missiles. If they didnout use it in Georgian war it does not mean that they dont exist like Iskander/Smerch.
That’s great if your target is a ship. Now let’s talk about land attack weapons options available to the F-15E vs. …..
Kh-31PM, KH-31AD, Kh-38, Kh-58U. Infact Kh-58 is Mach 4 weopon with range upt 250 to 300Km. KAB-500SE glosnos guided bomb. Klubir airlaunched version of club.
ktrv.ru
During the recent two decades China and India were the best export markets. However, both countries create their own industry, capable of producing the controlled weapon. The special progress in the development of weapon “air-surface”, “air-to-ship” and “air-to-air” attained China. The produced in C.P.R. (Chinese Peoples’ Republic) version of aircraft Su-27 (under the designation J -11b) is equipped with Chinese radar, avionics, engines and weapon. Thus, R -77 (RVV-AE) and R -27 on this “Chinese [Flenkere]” are substituted to the rockets PL-12, and YJ-91 are the version of rocket X -31[p]. Which strategy of company, directed toward the successful development and the access both for the Chinese, and Indian market?
– This is a simple question. On my opinion, YJ-91 – this is our rocket X -31[p], but under the Chinese designation… China continues to manifest interest in the purchase of our rocket. I consider that the rocket cannot be copied. Speaking about the markets of China and India, in the first place, necessary to note that it is possible to be enraptured by these countries, since they grew up and they possess very serious technical-engineering potential. To them cannot be sold the obsolete rocket.
During the work max -2007 [KTRV] it demonstrated three “new” in the development – X -31[Ad], X -58[UShKe] and X -38[Me]. Could not you describe somewhat in more detail about each of these systems?
– Rocket X -31[Ad] has approximately the same application, that the rocket X -31[a], but has more powerful warhead and increased (two times) distance. Antiradar missile X -58[UShKe] is equipped with wide-band [GSN], the folding aerodynamic surfaces make it possible to place it during the inner fuselage suspension.
Rocket X -38[Me] is intended for destruction of different protected, armored targets, it can be equipped with different (modular) types [GSN].
To what extent is important the success of family X -38[Me] for future [KTRV]? When rocket is proposed for the export, taking into account that X -25 is already “ripe” product?
X -38[Me] – this is modular type rocket. With its creation entire that experience, which the enterprise in these years accumulated was used. If we recall the history of the creation of rocket X -25, then it replaced a number of the rockets of previous generation, such as X -66, -23, -27. We continue to use the principle of modularity. It would be desirable to leave with this rocket for the market already today… I hope that this will occur as early as possible.– Rocket R -73 established new standard for the rockets of close battle with the IR- guidance, when it entered into service approximately in 1987. Are since then past twenty years, and competitors propose the more advanced rockets, such as Asraam, IRIS- T, Python 5, AIM-9X. What in this situation does undertake [KTRV]?
– You mentioned the number of our competitors, who are widely known. I think that in spite of “honorable” age of rocket R -73, she still can itself show, if it adapts in the specific situation. Although in the West appeared the new generation of rockets, R -73 it remains competitive. Certainly, we deal with a question of its replacement by the more advanced models. Works are conducted in the direction of an improvement in the characteristics: noise protection, the possibility of applying at any time of twenty-four hours, omnidirectional action.– It seems that the development of new rocket K -30 engaged sufficiently much time. This one example of ruinous influence the 90’s?
– As soon as we will obtain permission to mention the designation of this rocket, we will be able about it to speak. The development of armament – this is not that sphere, where it is necessary large “transparency
Yes I opened up that China-issue, but maybe You don’t want to read !!
I said that an Indian version of the PAK-FA will be much delayed and that I expect (YES, in my opinion) that this version will probably be later than the Chinese XXJ. The Russian T-50 will fly next year … but when will flight testing be finished ???
And also the Russian PAK-FA is … and most likely will be delayed.
Why shouldl PAK-FA be delayed? Compare the monetary and infrastruture resources available now to 90s? difference of light and day.
Regarding the other delays … some of You guys always quote performances and so on of the Su-35 as the rurrent “top-Russian” fighter to date !
Top fighter is MIG-31BM and than Su-34. Su-35 is export product when Sukhoi funded it from 2001 just like Sukhoi SSJ.
That may be true but it is currently under flight testing, if I’m correct the second prototype just made its first flight a few days ago (http://de.rian.ru/safety/20081002/117390559.html). None of these performances, which are quoted in several glossy Suckhoi advertisments are prooven or its weapons system integrated, esp. these ultra-long-range AAMs.
Sukhoi always tests its various subsysystems on other aircraft. Just because weopons are not shown officially it does not mean that they dont exist. No one other aircraft manufacturer can boost internal fuel capacity and FBW controlled 3D TVC like Su-35.
How could You expect the T-50 to be fielded in substantial numbers in Russian service at around 2015 if this current top-Flanker-version will only be ready (following this link above) in 2011.
PAK-FA is state funded program with completely new infrastructure built for it. Now in one year Russia spends more money on Aviation and aerospace as 10 years in 90s. From 2011 to 2015. Russia alone will spend 50 to 100 times money on Aviation as compared to 80s and 80s. Ur no seeing this difference.
This whole different game.
Again bringing China into that game … I never said that China’s XXJ will be better nor do I want to say Russia can’t build such a fighter esp. with keeping in mind Russia’s history of developing fighters. But by comparing the progress and speed of progress of the Chinese avaition industry and the Russian in its current state I would say in the distant future – esp. as the Chinese aviation industry isn’t that divided – I expect greater steps again from China.
China and progress?. There is no progress at all despite spending all the money. J-10/FC-1/L-15/ARJ-21/Antonov clones/IL-76/Soyouz replica. Allmost every thing uses substantial foreign help from radars/engines/fbw etc. China cannot even fly 3D TVC aircraft and Russia has been doing this for 10 years now under minimal state funding.
Yes, the J-10 had a very prolonged, troubled and assisted development, … but the J-10 has a secured future.
Yes, the same for the FC-1 … but just take a look of its current form, it already is flying in numbers, something no-one would have expected from China during the last decades.
I don’t compare both to other fighters other countries have developed decades before … but I try to compare with each country’s projects before !
Yes no one could have seen Soviet Union breakup and all the expertize available for sale just when China start accumulating hard currency. Chinese projects are overpriced and delayed for the amount of technolgy they represents.
J-8 to J-10/FC-1 and maybe XXJ
MiG-23 – MiG-29/Su-27 and now PAK-FA
J-8/J-10/FC-1 are air superiority fighters. Russian spend the 90s tried to make the fighters multirole for export markets. which is no longer priority now and there is no external help involved with minimum state funding in 90s. U cannot compare Chinese imported development with hard currency with Russian developments in 90s but still they manage to upgrade MIG-31/Su-27. China simply cant built IRST like Russians nor engines nor FBW sytems nor extensive use of composites/titanium in airframes.
And Russia; Your mighty aviation giant ?? The Su-34 is delayed, the Su-27SM is flying in how many regiments (1-2 ??), the Su-27BM (alias Su-35) is flying in two prototypes without flight testing finished … and You want to tell me that the PAK-FA won’t be delayed ! (and Yes no more or less as other top-military projects all over the world like the F-22, the Typhoon, the Rafale, the JSF, … and esp. the LCA)
That’s all … just read what I wrote.
Deino 😉
Su-34 is not delayed it was 4 times upgraded completely take into light the changine requirements. If sukhoi spends 10 years on some thing under no funding in 90s. Any other manufacturer will have to spend 100 years to achieve the same result.
Russia to build 8 nuclear submarines by 2015
MOSCOW. Oct 2 (Interfax-AVN) – Russia plans to build eight nuclear submarines by 2015 armed with Bulava strategic missiles under a new armaments program, a top admiral said on Thursday.
“The navy has gone over to building ships and nuclear submarines by the batch. A new state armaments program includes a plan to build a batch of eight nuclear submarines that would be armed with new Bulava strategic missiles,” Navy Deputy Commander in Chief Adm. Alexander Tatarinov said, answering a question from Interfax-AVN.
“Deadlines set by the new state armaments program, which is to be in effect until 2015, ensure the maintenance of the sea-based nuclear deterrence forces at a level that makes it possible to defend the security of the country in a guaranteed way,” Tatarinov said.
The admiral said the navy would start being supplied with Bulavas in 2009.
Yes … but why is it so impossible for anyone of You only to admit it is a very delayed programme without pointing to China !???
Deino
U brought China that it can built 5th generation faster. when China hasnt developed anything on scale of Su-34.
J-10/LCA/EF/Rafale/Gripen are examples of delayed fighters for there intended role. while Su-34 is not as Sukhoi has claimed that it is completely immune to airdefence systems.
F-22 is not delayed program as there is atleast claim with that it can defeat all air threats. Su-34 is even more so that it has unlimited upgrade potential without changing aerodynamics and still doing Strike & ASW/EW platform.
http://www.space.com/news/081002-nasa-soyuz-waiver.html
Bush Signs NASA Budget, Soyuz Waiver Into Law
Russia has no say over NATO overflights of Central Asian Republics. It is the CA governments themselves that have the say of the use of their airspace. For example NATO flights into Afghanistan can route over Georgia, Azerbaijan and Turkmenistan. Azerbaijan and Turkmenistan are members of NATO’s Partnership for Peace. In my opinion the Russians won’t even bother to ask for the Afghan route, but simply ask the Iranians.
TJ
More than 90% of Turkmen gas (exports) pass through Russian pipelines and the rest to Iran. Entire airforce is made of Russian parts. So if Ruaf wants to impose no fly zone. they can do so at time of there chosing. Remember Uzbekistan is strategic partner of Russia.They can choke it anytime. No one can built pipeline over Caspian sea as its status is disputed.
The AIM-120D will be online in the very near future. Any guess as to when the 600km AAMs are gonna be deployed?:D
What is MIG-31BM currently flying with? Ruaf needs Flankers for Strike purpose.
Agreed … but that may be as correct as the heaven is blue !
My point was only that the Su-34 is a very much delayed programme with a lot of time between each aircraft delivered … You can’t ignore that even if there my be reasons for that.
I also said only that I expect an Indian export-version of the T-50 only in the far future – long after the Russian model is already flying … and that maybe the Chinese XXJ is then flying too.Wrong is Your statement about a project “China has only shown (in) artistic renditions without a company supporting them” as it is accepted and published that the XXJ will be developed in cooperation by CAC (leading the design) and SAC … how long it will last until it will fly – maybe 2012 – was not to debate ! I said only the Indian version is IMO onyl very far away.
And anything elso about the hundreds of MiG-29 and Su-27 and the few J-10 has nothing to do with that.
Deino
Unless u know what is inside Su-34 u cannot assume it is some simple task. China cannot built mulitrole fighter like Su-27SM or Su-35 with complex FBW controlled TVC and increased fuel capacity in lighter airframe.
http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showthread.php?p=1060518&highlight=Su-34+computer#post1060518
The Su-34 multirole strike aircraft, series production of which began at the Novosibirsk Aviation Production Association (NAPO) in 2006, has “limitless” potential for further upgrades, according to chief designer Rollan Martirosov. Martirosov was speaking to journalists in Novosibirsk on 15 DecemberThe chief designer noted that the electronics of the aiming and navigation complex had been completely replaced on the No 6 experimental aircraft in 1999, while in 2004 high-quality LCD displays, newly produced to the required standard by Russian manufacturers, were installed on the No 8 experimental model, replacing display tubes
In a third report, the agency quoted Pogosyan as saying that after the first Russian air force formation equipped with Su-34s is set up, “we shall be setting our sights on the export market”. He said existing Sukhoi customers in Southeast Asia, Latin America, the Middle East and Africa were all showing interest in the Su-34.
Pogosayan talked up the Su-34’s on-board computer system, its electronic countermeasures, which make it “practically invulnerable to enemy weapons”, and its titanium armour.
He said the Russian air force had a requirement for 200 Su-34s, while 300-400were planned to be built in total, with series production spanning approximately 15-20 years.
Source: Interfax-AVN military news agency website 15 Dec 06
The F-15E can carry AIM-120Ds, while also carrying a wide variety of A2G ordinance. The range figures I mentioned were from one of the Sukhoi brochures you’ve posted. The combat radius is in the 1500km range though.
AIM-120 is not opertional. I am specifcially referring to AtoG Mach 3 weopons.
That range is estimation for SU-35. Not validated by actual flying. Su-27SM range with newer engines hasnt been posted. It is on flankerman website.
I would expect that the Russians will use Iranian airspace this time to route into the Indian Ocean. With the current U.S./Russian tensions I don’t think that Afghanistan will be used this time. I think that the U.S. will put some pressure on the Afghan government to not permit use of airspace. During 2003 the Russian filed a flight plan initially through Iran, but chose in the end to route through Afghanistan after U.S. officials gave the green light.
TJ
Russia permit US/NATO aircraft to fly over CA republics. Russia has bases/economics to block them. I think they will chose the shortest route to there.