star49India is already working on a technical total life extension- TTL- for the IAF MiG 29’s, on the same line of what has been done for the IAF’s MiG 21’s. The work is being done by HAL and NAL in coop with the IAF’s BRD 11.
Initial MIG-29 had life of 2500hrs which is extended to 4000 hrs through SMT upgrade. Do you have any data beyond 4000 hrs. I can safely assume retirement around 2010.
star49Unless, im much mistaken, US would be paying for these P-3Cs through the military aid ($1.5 billion over 5 years). So whether its costing PN 80 million, 100 million or 100 million per aircraft, it does not really matter…as Pak does not really have many other options. OTOH, US would try her best to look after her own interests.
PS. Hope it makes sense.
I think the price is right. and Pak has or will absorb weopons worth more than $1.5B in next 4 years of Bush that thing is for sure. just these 3 deals are over $1.2B.
star49But why not use the AID somewhere else where they can get more?
Do you have clue to what kind of survillance,Navigation, communication gear is inside? and how it compares to other systems in actual conditions? unless you have that specifics you cannot comment on its price. this P-3C is the best for its purpose and it was second most important item after F-16.
star49..sigh why the P-3C they are so obsolete. Even the US is retiring most of their P-3Cs from service.
Not in our part of the world. Since our rival is using ancient weopons.
PS. US will also be retiring F-16s. It does not mean that F-16 is going to be obsolete.
star49So PN is not going to buy ERIEYE or they are additional.
star49IAF is interested in the Mig29K concept but wants to see and feel a
IN prototype first before commiting to a -29 upg program. available funds are going into lots of places including the Jag and -27 upg progs. Bison upg is nearly complete.
This is not likely to happen. Either upgrade MIG-29 now or retire them 5 years later. MIG-29 has 4000HRS maximum life. So by the time you are evaluating MIG-29K the rest of MIG-29 will already part of history.
star49I know, but before you buy something new, you are briefed about capabilities and specifications.
When I red about the Iranian participation of Zuhai 2004, it came to my mind that two ex Iraqi Adnan are still in Iran. As a Chinese I would explore every opportunity to fetch all technical informations available. Why invent things/technology new, when it is possible to shorten time/money of development by that. It seems that the European weapons-embargo comes to an end. 😉
that Iraki Adnan went in 1990 to Iran and now it is 2004. So what ever beneficial data is there it is likely to be obtained by early 90s. that Phalcon project talks started from mid 90s and deal fail apart in 2000. so there is long time of evaluation and that deal was only for $250M one aircraft with options of more later. How come China much larger country than India ordered only One aircraft while India ordered 3? so the whole point seems to me is gaining the tech. Regarding ERIEYE and M2K5. China has plenty of opportunity of gaining from these tech because all these PAF deals fall apart due to financial reasons in mid to late 90s but they were not interested so it means there is nothing new in there.
star49YAKOVLEV R&D BUREAU JOINS HANDS WITH CHINA ON 3 AIR PROJECTS.
250 words
2 November 2004
RIA Novosty
English
.
ZHUHAI, CHINA, November 2 (RIA Novosti’s Mark Zavadsky) – The Moscow-based Yakovlev aircraft R&D bureau and several Chinese companies are working on three joint projects. “We hope each will be a success,” says Arkadi Gurtovoi, bureau Deputy Director General.
In particular, the Yakovlev is working on a contract to design an L15 training craft for China. “We have been involved in the job at each its stage, so we can say this is a lasting partnership. The first samples will go off the assembly line toward next year’s end,” Mr. Gurtovoi said to Novosti.
Talks are underway for China’s Hungdu Co. to take part in R&D for another training plane, the Yak 152. The bureau has its brightest hope for MS 21 short- and medium-range craft, whose design is among top priorities in Russia’s civil aviation. “We are anxious to get the project on an international footing, and so are active recruiting partners in other countries.
“Talks of several rounds are underway with the Chinese-based AVIC2 corporation, which is evaluating technical characteristics of the new aircraft. This is a very ambitious programme, and it certainly cannot be launched without a political resolution by the Chinese government,” says Arkadi Gurtovoi.
The Yakovlev bureau hopes China will make a final decision within the next six months.
The bureau is an active and regular exhibitor at the biennial Airshow China
star49World News Roundup
AIR SHOW CHINA BRIEFLY
Staff
476 words
8 November 2004
Aviation Week & Space Technology
19
Volume 161, Number 18
English
DNW, a Dutch-German wind tunnel venture, says it has concluded high-speed testing of China’s ARJ21 regional jet. Tests on a 1:20-scale model in Amsterdam were performed on a wide attitude and speed range throughout the flight envelope, examining both Mach and Reynolds number effects. Qualitative flow visualization and sting interference evaluations also were run, according to DNW, which worked on the Embraer 170/190 regional jet program. Models of passenger and freight versions of the ARJ21, which is expected to enter service in 2008, were on display at Air Show China in Zhuhai (see photo).
Guizhou has carried out wind tunnel tests of a 1:7.5-scale model of its proposed LFC-16 lightweight high-agility fighter concept. The design has large canards and mid-body strakes, leading to downward-canted end plates at the tail. Guizhou has ambitions to build two full-scale demonstrator aircraft, but whether funding is made available remains to be determined.
China is in the preliminary study stage of developing a lunar exploration and sample return program. The initial phase of the two-decade program would see China Aerospace Science & Technology launch a Moon orbiter within the next 24-36 months.
Russian air-to-surface missile manufacturer Raduga has carried out a test firing of its Kh-59MK radar-guided version of the Kh-59M (AS-18 Kazoo) anti-ship missile. The latest variant of the Kh-59 is fitted with a new power-plant, and its maximum range is now 300 km. (188 mi.). The Kh-59MK is believed to be undergoing development to meet a Chinese requirement for a long-range, air-launched anti-ship missile.
The China Aviation Radar & Electri- cal Equipment Institute has test-flown a lightweight synthetic aperture radar suitable for use on a helicopter or unmanned aerial vehicle. Test flights were carried out using a Harbin Y-7.
Avionics and component manufacturer Smiths is expanding its Chinese presence, with moves to double the size of its production facility in Suzhou. This site is used for engine component manufacture and materials work. The enlarged site is due to be completed by 2006.
China Southern Airlines wants to begin services to Japan and the Korean peninsula to expand its international route structure. The airline is also in discussions to provide an internal express delivery service for domestic mail.
Snecma continues to build on its Chinese business, signing components manufacturing agreements with Xian Aero Engine and the AVIC I Guizhou factory. The French propulsion manufacturer also is proposing co-development of an engine for China’s medium-size helicopter program.
Eurocopter has received an order for two Super Puma helicopters, plus two options, from Citic Offshore Helicopter Co. of Hong Kong. The sale was concluded under a framework agreement last month.
star49Excerpt from report by Russian external TV service NTV Mir on 9 November
[Presenter] An international air show has been held in Zhuhai, China. Observant visitors noticed that designs presented by China largely resembled Russian products. Sergey Morozov went to the air show to investigate the situation.
[Correspondent] After the Chinese have streamlined their own production of the Kalashnikov assault rifle, they have not changed its name to something like a great march. Times have changed. Chinese weapons at the Zhuhai air show are very much a copy of foreign arms. But they bear Chinese names and China is proud of them as if they were its own.
The (?J-7) aircraft is a clone of the Russian MiG-21. This is an old aircraft and there is no fear involved in putting it on display. The new (?J-10) did not take to the skies in Zhuhai. The Chinese are safeguarding this new-generation plane against intruders. It started off with an Israeli design but it was tested using a Russian engine. The Russians did bring a variable thrust engine to Zhuhai. The Chinese took a very close look at it. In the end they decided to replace the engine and the radar with their own, those produced in China.
[Yuriy Yeliseyev, captioned as general director of the Salyut plant] China’s representatives visit our plant quite often. We exchange our promising designs. It is natural that the Chinese side has been designing an engine of its own. But I believe that over the next three-five years we will still have a job to do in this sector.
[Correspondent] In order to create the Chinese counterpart WS10A, Chinese engineers are rumoured to have used a ruler to take all measurements of the Russian product. But after the counterpart has been assembled at a plant in Shenyang, it turned out to be hundreds of kilograms heavier and its thrust was considerably lower. They did not get it quite right. According to some sources, specialists from the Fazotron corporation helped to design the radar for the new fighter jet. For Russian experts, the Chinese radar show is a kind of manual depicting the recent past.
[Yuriy Guskov, captioned as deputy general designer of the Fazotron-NIIR corporation] These are samples of receiving and transmitting modules which are available to them at present. We did this about 15 years ago. In order to embark onto a new level, it is necessary to employ new technology which the Americans and Russia, and perhaps Great Britain, have.
[Correspondent] China’s space programme resembles the Soviet one in almost every detail. [passage omitted: China has been busy working on its space programme]
The Russian and the Chinese display stands are not on the same spot but if they were situated next to each other, the similarities would be evident. This is a purely Chinese design but Russia is offering China something similar as part of its display.
The Chinese suspected that Russia was aware of their copycat potential and for purposes of licensed assembly was delivering to them parts not entirely the same as those used for example to assemble Russian aircraft. Their concern may have been justified.
[Mikhail Pogosyan, captioned as general director of the Sukhoi holding company] The quality of our aircraft produced in China meets quality requirements. But naturally we have not been stalling. We are moving forward all the time. We are making decisions in favour of better quality for our products. Not everyone can keep up.
[Correspondent] Russia’s strategy is that its research will move further ahead during the time it takes for the Chinese to copy technology. But if progress is believed to be money multiplied by time, the fact is that China has been investing greater amounts and that time is running out on us.
Source: NTV Mir, Moscow, in Russian 1900 gmt 9 Nov 04
star49Show Report: News
CompetitionChinese jet trainer pair square upLocal manufacturers face tough competition as they prepare for domestic and export push for aircraft.
Max KJ
389 words
9 November 2004
Flight International
15
English
Two Chinese factories are developing new advanced trainers to compete for an expected domestic requirement and potential exports.
At Zhuhai, Hongdu Aviation Industry unveiled a mock-up of the supersonic L-15, featuring a wing-fuselage blended body, twin turbofan engines and fly-by-wire controls. Guizhou Aviation Industry displayed a model of the FTC-2000, which was unveiled at the Beijing exhibition in October 2003 and flew for the first time last December.
China has not agreed to acquire either aircraft, but both manufacturers are hopeful of domestic as well as international orders. They plan to market their aircraft in Africa, eastern Europe, the Middle East and south Asia, but will face stiff competition from Aermacchi, BAE Systems and Korea Aerospace Industries, which already have established advanced trainer products.
“We want to sell abroad, but up to now there is no contract,” says Guizhou senior engineer Tang Qi Rong.
Guizhou projects a market for at least 150 FTC-200s, including 80 in China. Tang acknowledges China may instead opt for the L-15, but believes Guizhou has the edge because the FTC-2000, equipped with mechanical flight controls, is cheaper and has already flown.
He says Guizhou is planning soon to start manufacturing a small batch of four to six production aircraft. These will be used to get air force input, after which the aircraft will be modified if necessary and followed by a larger batch of 10-20 production units.
Hongdu has experience producing the K-8 basic trainer and PT-6 primary trainer, but is new to the advanced trainer arena. Guizhou is more established in this area, having produced about 200 FT-7PG advanced trainers.
Guizhou is still producing about 12 FT-7PGs annually, but hopes to phase this line out in favour of the FTC-2000, which offers better landing and take-off performance, plus the ability touch down at a slower speed than the FT-7PG.
Guizhou is part of China Aviation Industries I and Hongdu is part of China Aviation Industries II.
china’s trainers compared
FTC-2000L-15
Wingspan8.32m9.48m
Max speedM1.6M1.4
Range2,500km3,100km
T/O distance400-500m*N/A
*at 146kt
star49I forget do add that JANES is now completely worthless publication after blowing tha RD-93 story two times with unamed sources and both times Russian publicly denied it.
star49It seems there is no customer for Su-30MK3
fightersChina considers changes to Su-27 Sukhoi assembly deal.
Craig Hoyle
340 words
9 November 2004
Flight International
China and Russia are considering changes to a government-to-government agreement covering Beijing’s licensed production of 200 Sukhoi Su-27SKs, to encompass a more advanced version of the single-seat interceptor.
China signed a deal over a decade ago to acquire 200 aircraft in kit form in batches of 105 and 95, and the first of these has now been delivered in full. Sixty aircraft are believed to have been assembled to date, with a further 10 scheduled for completion by year-end. All 105 aircraft from the first production batch are expected to be in air force service by early 2007, with all 200 to be in use by 2010-12.
Consideration is now being given to acquiring the second batch in an enhanced configuration, with China’s earlier aircraft to be upgraded to this standard later. Russia is offering China the upgraded Su-27SKM, which includes a glass cockpit, precision navigation systems, in-flight refuelling equipment and the ability to deploy advanced Russian precision-guided weapons.
Consultations on a possible specification change for China’s second batch of aircraft must be concluded by year-end to enable Sukhoi’s KnAAPO plant to order mission equipment. China is the company’s only customer for new-build Su-27s. China is, meanwhile, also considering placing an order for additional Su-27UBK twin-seat operational trainers from NPO Irkut’s IAPO plant to support its future Su-27s.
Meanwhile, deliveries of the Su-30MK-2 twin-seat multirole fighter are continuing from KnAAPO, with 24 set to enter service with China’s navy from early 2005. Sukhoi is also promoting its upgraded Su-30MK-3 to China, with this able to carry the Raduga Kh-59MK anti-ship missile, which has a range of almost 300km (160nm). The company says Su-30MK-3 testing has been suspended following an initial series of weapons trials and will resume only if a customer is found for the aircraft.
star49Project No. 2 is the Project 129. This is probably intended for the Russian aircraft or Chinese aircraft with Russian fire control systems in Chinese service, and combines a Russian seeker and datalink into a Chinese airframe identical to the SD-10.
I have russian read about R129 but cannot find the news report in my hard drive. they describe it as next project (ram jet).
star49Chinese Defense
Chinese Fireworks; Guided-weapons sector grows independent after long reliance on copied technology
Douglas Barrie
8 November 2004
Aviation Week & Space Technology
57
Volume 161, Number 18
The latest flurry of U.S. political activity concerning the Taiwan Strait–and the provision of advanced air defenses to Taipei–is likely sparked by Beijing’s moves toward deploying land-attack cruise missiles.
Two programs, the DH-10 ground-launched cruise missile and the YJ-63 air-launched weapon, appear to be heading into the final phases of development. Their entry into service will effectively mark the People’s Liberation Army (PLA) debut in the long-range precision strike arena.
The two programs are emblematic of the considerable progress China is making in the development and deployment of tactical guided weaponry. There are notable ongoing programs–and substantive investment–not only in long-range strike weapons, but also in air-to-air, short- and medium-range air-to-surface, and surface-to-air weaponry.
Both the military and the country’s government-owned missile research and manufacturing sector have been considerable beneficiaries of the collapse of the Soviet Union. The resulting struggle of Russia’s guided-weapons industry to survive provides China with a conduit to technology and personnel, bolstering and expediting its own efforts. Similarly, the USSR’s breakup provided access to expertise resident in Ukraine, a key missile and subcomponents manufacturer in the Soviet era.
Russian design bureaus such as cruise-missile manufacturer Raduga, tactical air-to-surface specialist Zvezda-Strela, and air-to-air missile producer Vympel have been involved in Chinese efforts. Subsystem manufacturers, such as radar-seeker specialist Agat, have also found willing customers in Beijing.
China has yet to release any formal information on either the DH-10 or the YJ-63 programs. Both, however, are certain to be priority developments, given China’s interest in showcasing its regional influence. The efficacy of this class of weapons in various conflicts involving the U.S. and its allies over the past decade also have been carefully noted by Beijing.
The DH-10 may be deployed on a three-launcher road mobile platform, if a model of what appeared to be the associated transporter-erector launch vehicle proves representative. A test-launch program for the 1,500-km. (930-mi.) missile is underway. Guidance is likely based on inertial and mid-course updates, possibly using GPS, coupled with an electro-optical package for scene-matching and terminal engagement.
The YJ-63 is carried by the venerable H-6, a license-built variant of the Tupolev Tu-16 Badger. The YJ-63 designation is associated with a derivative of the YJ-6/ YJ-61 family of antiship missiles, but is fitted with a turbojet powerplant, and an electro-optical seeker for terminal engagement. The H-6 appears to be capable of carrying two such missiles.
A FURTHER DEVELOPMENT of the aircraft has been shown, with four rather than two underwing weapons pylons. An indistinct image of a prototype of this variant carrying what were possibly “size-and-shape” models of a new standoff missile has also been displayed.
While it is uncertain what “help” has been provided on either the DH-10 or the YJ-63 from Russian companies, Raduga officials have previously confirmed they have provided support to China in this area.
Alongside ground- and air-launched weapons, the People’s Liberation Army navy is also developing an extended-range missile, initially for the antiship role. The latest of the navy’s Type 52 destroyers is being fitted amidships with up to eight large launch-tubes. These are potentially related to the YJ-62 missile program thought to be for a long-range, sea-skimming antiship cruise missile. The exact status of this program is uncertain.
Presently, the Chinese navy is reliant on Russia for its surface-launched, long-range antiship missile capability in the shape of the Raduga 3M-80 Moskit (SS-N-22 Sunburn). This system is fitted to the Sovremmeny-class destroyers bought by the Chinese navy. The navy could eventually field at least two derivatives of the Sunburn, the basic export version and an extended-range derivative, which may correspond to the 3M-80MVE designation.
While the YJ-62 would provide an indigenous capability, the system is almost certainly subsonic, rather than supersonic like the 3M-80. However, a supersonic antiship missile design, associated with the YJ-12A designation, has also been displayed in model form.
In addition to developing long-range antiship weaponry, Chinese industry has also been working on short-range systems suitable for small attack craft, as well as for air-launch. Test firings of the C-701 lightweight antiship missile have already been carried out. This a 100-kg. (220-lb.) electro-optically guided weapon suitable for helicopter launch. This missile appears to have been developed in competition with the FL-8. Alongside these there is also the FL-9, a somewhat larger radar-guided antiship missile.
All three missiles are being offered for export–and possibly license production–to Iran. The Iranian Kosar family of weapons includes both the C-701 and the FL-8, while a missile project dubbed Nasr corresponds to the FL-9. A radar-guided derivative of the C-701, known as Kosar 3, also appears to be in development.
Whether this corresponds to a Chinese requirement, or is specifically for Iran, is not known. Indeed what remains to be determined is whether the C-701, FL-8, or FL-9 will actually enter service with the PLA–though the C-701 would appear the most likely candidate at present.
The People’s Liberation Army Air Force’s (PLAAF’s) short- and-medium-range air-to-surface missile (ASM) inventory is now heavily reliant on Russian systems. As well as acquiring Su-27 and Su-30 Flanker variants from Russia, the air force has also purchased complementary weapons packages. These include the Vympel Kh-29 (AS-14 Kedge) TV-guided ASM, and the Raduga Kh-59ME (AS-18 Kazoo) turbojet-powered standoff missile, as well as the KAB-500 and KAB-1500 guided bombs. The Zvezda-Strela Kh-31P (AS-17 Krypton) antiradiation missile (ARM) has also been provided.
BOTH THE KH-31 and the Kh-59 may also have been the focus of development programs specific to China. Zvezda-Strela worked on a program known as Kitai-Rossikaya 1 (China-Russia 1) for a development of the Kh-31 optimized for specific Chinese requirements. A handful of missiles were delivered around 1997, but the project appears to be in abeyance. There are reports China is also working on an indigenous antiradar missile (ARM).
Raduga, meanwhile, is working on a radar-guided variant of the Kh-59M, the Kh-59MK, and brochure material for this weapon identifies the launch platform as the Su-30MKK, a variant of the Flanker destined for Chinese naval aviation. Along with a radar seeker, the Kh-59MK is also fitted with an improved powerplant, the 36MT, which increases the missile’s range to around 300 km.
As with other areas of its guided-weapons inventory, China is bound to be building up its own capability to produce tactical ASMs. In terms of subsystems, Chinese industry is making progress with electro-optical seekers. An electro-optical (E/O) seeker assembly designated KD-63 has been displayed, and may be related to the JY-63 cruise missile. China has also shown the KD-88 E/O seeker, although to which weapon this is related is not yet clear.
Another arena reflecting significant progress is that of the beyond-visual-range (BVR) air-to-air missile (AAM). China has struggled to develop either a semi-active or active BVR AAM; attempts to reverse-engineer the AIM-7 Sparrow, then use the Aspide as the basis of a semi-active, or latterly active, radar-guided AAM, were at best lackluster. Whether the semi-active Aspide derivative–likely designated the PL-11–has entered service in any significant number remains unknown.
Russia again seems to have provided the key to a significant improvement in the PLAAF’s capability. Along with the sale of the semi-active R-27 (AA-10 Alamo) and the active R-77 (AA-12 Adder) as part of the weapons packages for the Su-27/Su-30, Russian industry has been closely involved in China’s latest indigenous effort, the SD-10/PL-12.
At least four successful test firings of the PL-12 were carried out earlier this year, and, barring unforeseen difficulties, the missile could enter service by 2006-07. The 180-kg. weapon has a claimed maximum engagement range of 70 km., with a maximum lateral acceleration of 40g. Fitted with a dual-pulse solid rocket motor, the missile is also capable of being flown using a lofted trajectory.
Chinese industry officials have previously confirmed some “foreign help” on the program, also known as Project 129. Russian industrialists have also admitted involvement. Missile specialist Vympel participated early in the program, while radar-seeker house Agat has also been involved.
Although China has been working on its own active-radar technology, there remain questions over its present level of maturity, and Agat is likely providing the front-end for the PL-12. A derivative of the 9B-1103M seeker developed as part of an upgrade program for the R-77 may well be the base-line for the PL-12. Such technology would also give China further valuable insight into the development of active-radar seekers.
The PL-12 is likely to provide the primary BVR AAM for the Chengdu J-10 fighter now in flight trials, as well as for the FC-1/JF-17, and also the J-11, as the Shenyang license-built version of the Su-27 is known. A derivative of the F-8II may also be a candidate platform for the missile.
The successful introduction of the PL-12 into widespread PLAAF service would mark a significant enhancement in its air-to-air capability. While the air force already has an active BVR AAM in the shape of the R-77, this is believed to have been procured in limited numbers, and is also platform-specific. The PL-12’s kinematic performance is also considerably greater than that of the basic AA-12.
The Chinese missile threatens to emerge as a competitor to the basic R-77, not only for further air force needs, but also in the export environment. The PL-12, or the SD-10 as it is designated for export, is being offered to Pakistan as part of the JF-17 light-fighter co-development package. The first prototype of this aircraft flew in September 2003. Given the links between China and Iran regarding tactical antiship missiles, Tehran must also be considered as a possible customer. The Iranian air force would certainly welcome the opportunity to introduce an active BVR AAM into its inventory.
There are indications Chinese industry is already weighing further development of the missile, with both a surface-to-air derivative and extended-range variant being contemplated.
While it is comparatively clear as to how the air force plans to meet its future BVR needs, its corresponding requirement for a next-generation short-range AAM is far less transparent.
Previously, the PLAAF has acquired French and, more recently, Israeli technology to meet infrared missile needs. The Rafael Python 3, referred to as the PL-8, was supplied to China during the early 1990s, and is in widespread service. In parallel China developed the PL-9 family, the latest of which is the PL-9C.
Development of an imaging infrared short-range AAM is also underway to succeed the PL-8 and PL-9C. A number of foreign manufacturers are eyeing China as a potential export or development partner for a new dogfight missile, as well.
While in the past, the Chinese military has had to accept simply what was offered, its growing indigenous capability gives it greater leverage in discussing foreign weapons acquisition, and an increasing portfolio of systems for export.
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