star49I’m the one making assumptions?:rolleyes:
Why shouldn’t I assume that 400km is the ballistic range. I’ve never seen a figure for maximum range that wasn’t under the most optimal conditions, so it’d be an assumption for me to think any differently in this case.
MIG-31 shot of 1994 was only from 8000m height. Why 18 to 22km height should have the same range. and what about all technology developments of past 15 years? so ur assumptions are clearly wrong.
You didn’t address my issue with regards to effective ranges being based upon detection. You can’t fire a missile if you don’t know there’s a target to shoot at, no matter how far your missile could potentially travel. When the detection ranges are 90km for a .1-1m^2 target, it doesn’t matter that the missile can shoot further.
These are general specification for export customer nothing to with even real performance for customer who pays the money. for BARS and Zhuk-ME the range is only 120 to 160km but real life performance is way higher than that. only who pays for this thing will know the real performance.
TVC of any kind(2D or 3D) isn’t gonna outmanuever a missile, unless it’s outside its NEZ. It helps at extreme high altitudes, for supersonic trim, and at low speeds/high AoA, when there isn’t enough lift from the wings alone. Why should I put any more credence in what the RuAF chief says, than you give claims by the USAF chief? You can’t have it both ways.
TVC can change front end attack into tail chase rather quickly. When pilots have the confidence there jets can dodge long range BVR shot they will be more agressive in there tactics. Ruaf cheif has alot more credibility than anyone else when it comes to fighter matters. Just look at idea behind hight altitude/high speed/Conformal LRAAM carrying MIG-31 (It is not F-14/F-15 with limited fuel capacity). And that was fro 1960s. similar look at space program. and those were from times when they were far behind in computer and industrial technology. Now no such hinderance interms of money or equipment to pursue the most outrageous ideas.
Russians are very good in managing big things effectively and efficiently for very long time.
star49The delay is due to the avionics equipment coming from the US. As you know, these have to pass export restrictions and require approval. These equipment is needed for the plane to meet the standards used in international and US airports.
avionics is hardly reason for flight test delay. And first 200 to 300 are for Chinese market. So you wont this outside delivery in next 5 to 8 years atleast. and US government has open office right in China for its certification. It means there is alot of pressure on US government from US based suppliers to get it certified as soon possible to get more money by selling parts to this jet for Chinese market.
http://rc-europe.com/news/page8116.html
Rockwell Collins announces first delivery for ARJ21 regional jet
CEDAR RAPIDS, Iowa (July 27, 2006) – Rockwell Collins announced Thursday that it will complete this summer the first delivery of avionics to AVIC I Commercial Aircraft Co. (ACAC) Ltd. of China for the new ARJ21 regional jet. Officials from both companies celebrated the milestone with a formal acceptance ceremony at Rockwell Collins headquarters in Cedar Rapids
star49dude, it was delayed because the suppliers couldn’t get the parts delivered on time. Can you read at all?
blame suppliers? It is the manufacture responsibility to built every thing on time. This planes does not include carbon fibre composites from Italy/Japan or new engine development. So the question of supplier simply cannot arise.
look at dates.
http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/90001/90776/90881/6496921.html
The first ARJ21-700 went off the general assembly in Shanghai Aircraft Manufacturing Factory in December 2007.
star49Wouldn’t Russian military drones be using the Russian GLONASS system instead of the American GPS? Based on its size, I would also guess its pretty short ranged. Would the Russians not like run over some police cars/ policemen with their tanks if the Georgian police did shoot one of their drones down right in front of them?
If this does turn out to be a BT pipeline surveying drone, I wonder if BT would say anything publicly.
American GPS is called Navstar like Glonass and galileo.All Glonass devices should work on Navstar incase some thing fails.
http://pro.magellangps.com/en/support/apptechnotes.asp
2. GPS and GPS+GLONASS RTK
This paper presents not only two new RTK products, but also a major breakthrough in global positioning technology, taking RTK where it has never gone before. The first new product is the Z-Sensor, a single board implementation of Magellan’s reknowned Z12 receiver. The second product is the GG-RTK receiver, the world’s first GPS+GLONASS RTK product.
RTK has represented the peak of GPS performance for several years, but there have been severe limitations – with fewer than 5 GPS satellites in view, RTK does not work at all, or works so slowly as to be almost no better than DGPS in many applications. Now, by combining GPS and GLONASS in an RTK product, you can use RTK in places such as open pit mines, urban canyon, river valleys, etc., where GPS-only RTK simply will not work.
star49Assuming the AAM has a 400km ballistic range, the NEZ will be considerably less, especially against a manuevering target that’s using ECM. It doesn’t matter how long the range is though, as what’s important is how far away the host fighter can detect its target. This determines the optimal effective range of a missile, as you can’t shoot what you can’t see. The fact that the SU-35 has 3D TVC is irrelevant in BVR, and only moderately relevant in WVR. It has a higher RCS than 2D, which is why the Raptor wisely went that route.
I wouldn’t want to bet the farm on shooting down incoming AAMs, especially if there are multiple incoming AAMs, assuming that the Flanker is even aware of them. Lastly, I don’t think that you can (ass)(u)(me) that the RuAF Irbis will have a detection range increase of 200-300km, unless the standard of proof is that “anything” is possible. You also have to take into account that the LO/VLO is supposed to be effective against ground based radar as well as fighter radars, and the ground based radar has considerably more power, and antenna size, than any fighter.
Ur making too many assumptions. why should be 400KM billistic range. when ULRAAM is 4 times heavier than MRAAM? Second u dont know 3D TVC performance so why asssume it is not for BVR escape? Third. SU-27SM range has been increased both in radar and weopons compared to MKI/MK and it directly comes from Ruaf Chief. The statement is right on this forum. So the same procedure assumption will be true for Su-35 Vs Su-27SM2
Fourth. EF hasnt officiall released brochure of 185Km tracking range or openly stating supercruse. Sukhoi test pilot is now backed but by Sukhoi now for amazing supercruise ability from various heights of 5 to 11km. EF people are just not confident about so it is all hear say. fifth. Groud based radars are more powerful but fighter radars can look further due to altitude and MIG-31BM/Su-35 are powrful fighters. Radar power of 3 to 6 times of EF is not out of reach. sixth. There is massive internal fuel capacity. So it can actually utlize its supercruise ability at considerable distance after required altitude is achieved.
star49Yea, yea – Russia uber alles. This contribution was mainly raw resources (like today) mined by all but not russians.
So it is Ukranians that are launching rockets into Space from Baikanour or mining Uraninium mines or running the space tracking station at Orak or protecting countries from Afghan border. ur seriously deluding if they can manage to built a rifle by themselves.
Those people will find a job in another country, but what russians will do without 20-30% of workers resources? What a percentage of lets say weapons constructors are russians? 10 or 5%?
And “well established Russian train and pipeline network” is a joke, right?
Joke. So which pipelines Gas from Central Asia is transferred to EU?
Russia has hard currency. they can invite whom they want. Just like Thales/samsung/sagem.
Exactly as Russia.
when u have hard currency. there is less change of immigration and more moNEy to raise wages. so less chance of population decline.
star49I see – so more PR talk and nothing definitive star 🙂
Have u seen the long range missile of new MIG-31BM or 3500-5000km new missile of Blackjack. Certain things which are not cleared for export are not even shown.
star49For guiding a missile first must you detect your target.
Tracking and detecting ist a different thing.
And again, when your tracking range is 600km than can a RWR detect you in 1200km and more.
When a AIM-120D has a range of 180km than has the Meteor a greater cruising range with it ramjet.:rolleyes:The famous last words of a General: The have not the range! Plop
The detecting distance is much lower as your tracking distance!
When your Su-35 is in maybe service than is Meteor avaible.:rolleyes:In fact the DLR claimed the Typhoon ist not stealht but invisible in the front quarter for RADAR in A2A!:diablo:
ramjet does not automatically give more range. ur confusing Export range of IRBIS to what is available to Ruaf that will be totally different performance level. There is very little possibility that Metero will be integrated by its time of 2015 Judging by slow and costly development of EU projects.
And u have to take all this 185km range of EF with grain of salt. I would have no doubt that even MIG-35 radar will beat EF radar in IAF competition. Trials are less than a year away. There is no maybe in Su-35. there is fundamental changed happened for Ruaf procurement. they have clearly accelerated Su-35 tests. So by next year everything with weopons will be done.
In 2009, end trials Su-35, in 2010 they will begin mass production, Venezuela has expressed interest in Su-35 – Sergei Chemezov
star49Yeah but is the R-77M/ER funded? I heard its RnD was shelved in 1999!!! While if the EF can maneuver effectively at supersonic speeds – it surely will have the advantage from an NEZ aspect!
It will take some time for articles to be published in arhives. Newer versions of R-77 are already there but they are not allowed to reveal it.
http://www.ato.ru/rus/cis/archive/22-2008/
Russia & CIS Observer №22 (August, 2008)
Sukhoi Su-35 Achieves Supercruise Flight
Russia’s new Sukhoi Su-35 fighter is already showing its high-performance capabilities.New Approach for Russian Missiles
Russia’s Tactical Missiles Corporation (TMC) has begun marketing a number of new and upgraded air-to-ground guided weapons, while other new-generation systems — including air-to-air missiles — await clearance to be revealed publically
star49When your IBRIS-E can detect a target with a RCS of 3m^2 in 400km distance than can a RWR detect a IBRIS-E minimal in 800km and more.;) This is simple math!:rolleyes: Your Su-35 ist with a working IBRIS-E a loud screaming target, bring me down, bring me down.:diablo:
With a RCS in A2A of 0.1m^2 for the EF is your SU-35 long before in the non escape zone for an AIM-120C or a Meteor converted your Su-35 to a meteor.:D
I highly doubt EF has 0.1sqm RCS and It wont be getting Meteor untill 2015.
Meteor is 100Km to 150km class weopon. Nothing on scale of 400KM that Su-35 is getting. It can guild 4 semi-active missile at ranges greater than 300KM. 400KM IRBIS is for Export Su-35. Su-27SM2 is more likely to be in 500 to 600KM class lock on range. Just like difference betwee Su-27SM & SK.
It will even able to shoot hypersonic missiles just like MIG-31BM so incoming AAM will be shoot down. It is radar power that will make lock on almost anyting flying in air possible no matter what , RCS, height and speed. Radar raw power is the key. Su-35 has standard wingtip ECM system. It is much larger aircraft so large amount of electronics can be fitted inside it. It has 3D TVC and very extensive used of titaniums as compared to aluminium/composites. so supermanevorability at any height and speed is possible without breaking airframe It has higher top speed, fuel so it can engage and disengage from battlle field at will. EF is not in that league and it was duly mentioned by Test pilot of Sukhoi that only MIG-31/F-22 can be compared to Su-35. F-18E is close competitor but not equal. the rest does not matter.
star49There is of course no point in a one-to-one comparison of these conflicts. Let’s remember that the Russian ground forces effectively did the job in a matter of days, so no war of air attrition like in Serbia.
I just wanted to point out that there are major shortcomings (you talked of the planning, how come that the air force wasn’t prepared for this likely scenario? Russia knew it would step in if Georgia threatens the autonomous regions). And these shortcomings are not solved by investing into the MiG-31 fleet.
If S-300 would have moved into Serbia, that wouldn’t have crushed NATO Air, but it would have slowed down the campaign. If we imagine Russian ground troops haven’t progressed that well and they would have been the need for more air assistance, there is a chance that we had seen more losses, maybe leading to a suspension of aerial attacks under certain conditions.
Again, my point is that before money is wasted on MiG-31 it gos into relatively low profile investments of Suchoi 24 and 25 countermeasures and increase of training for those units.
I highly doubt that MIG-31 will be affected. MIG-31 is usefull incase they want to enforce No-Fly zone over BlackSea/Caucaus. And they are going to invest further money into Spy satellites.
http://www.moscowtimes.ru/article/1009/42/371090.htm
Budget Sees Boosts For Arms, HousingDefense Ministry officials and military experts have said Russia’s war with Georgia last month exposed vulnerabilities, including a lack of high-precision weapons, drones and other intelligence equipment.
Part of the additional defense expenditures will pay for the construction and deployment of spy satellites to permanently monitor areas of interest, a Defense Ministry official said. More detailed breakdowns of defense spending are classified
star49developing a commercial plane is a lot harder than a military jet. The Russians had delayed first flight of RRJ. Boeing and Airbus did the same thing too.
It is not true of Commerical bening harder vs Military. A400/C-17/C-130 models had alot of delays and cost over run. even the new A-50 for IAF had one year delay for structural testing. which is even more complex than simple transport. so u can finally put to rest all indigenous claims related to IL-76.
RRJ has problem with engine development and slow funding in beginning.
ARJ-21 does not have any problem as nothing new is developed for it.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122039785023492809.html?mod=googlenews_wsj
Even the U.S. government is involved. The Federal Aviation Administration, citing safety and the participation of so many U.S. firms, opened a bureau in Shanghai last year to help the Chinese win certification for the ARJ21 to fly in the U.SBoeing and Airbus already are offering a new generation of larger jets built from fuel-saving lightweight composite materials instead of the ARJ21’s traditional metals. The ARJ21 is “an important airplane for Chinese industry,” Boeing Commercial Airplanes President Scott Carson said at the Farnborough International Airshow in July. But he added, “It’s not a very exciting airplane and doesn’t take you very far into the future.”
star49Blackjack is pretty fast at low altitude. I wonder the planes went to Venzuela are the upgraded ones with enhanced engines and avionics .
http://www.kommersant.com/page.asp?idr=1&id=601683
Then we got the information that the first two missiles had hit the target—some small, hut was eliminated from the face of the earth. Two minutes later, a Tu-160 (without the president onboard) showed up over the military air base of Olenegorsk. That was the one that was promised to fly 200 meters over the earth with promised 900 km/hour and 30-degree angle. And if somebody had to be persuaded that our planes are the loudest planes in the world, that somebody would have no doubt after that. The second Tu-160, with Putin onboard, flew, thanks God, a bit higher and without an angle
Russian Air Force to get 2 Tu-160 strategic bombers next year
14.12.2004, 19.26MOSCOW, December 14 (Itar-Tass) — The Russian Air Force will receive two Tu-160 strategic bombers next year. One of the bombers will have digital equipment to upgrade precision of bombing, 37th aviation force commander Lt. Gen. Igor Khvorov told Itar-Tass.
“Modernization of this Tu-160 will be so profound that it will only look like its prototype. The jet will have absolutely different avionics,” the general said. “The bomber will be also have the most advanced radio-electronic equipment for the broad use of space-based means of communication, navigation, reconnaissance and targeting. That will upgrade precision and efficiency of bombing.”
“We are working on the future strategic jet. We think that the Tu-160 will generally preserve its exterior, but develop into something new. That will be cheaper and quicker, because the Tu-160 gives us 75% of what we want. We must thank the designers, who gave the jet a big modernization potential,” he said.
It is also planned to modernize the Tu-22M3 strategic bomber, the general said. “The jet will have modernized targeting systems and some new other parameters. Financing is not sufficient, so the modernization will take longer but we will do that eventually,” he said
star49Mate – your response is full of errors – from the AWACs to the EF simply not being fit enough to fufill its advertised SS envelope. RCS – comes into play and so does Captor. Don’t always underestimate non Russian gear!
Raw power of radar is the most critical aspect of Russian systems. They use it as antiradar jamming system. And they do shoot down stealth cruise missiles at low altitude. EF RCS is not problem. u cannot have high altitude system unless its backed up by required weopons/radar/fuel capacity/speed that no one can match it. as at high altitude radar envelope expands just like Satellites from Space.
star49Star, pleas learn what the word “niche” means and you will understand why, for all intensive purposes, the Mig-31 is useless.
Not saying it isn’t an amazing plane with great capabilities, but I think its days are over, the “Flaker” series has much more potential at this point.
MIG-31 is certainly not useless. it is part of pretty much every exercise that Ruaf conducts and will remain so even with PAK-FA. Flanker series cannot replace its capabilities.
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