star49Haven’t seen any photo of the Russian Il-76s at Cheng Du.
OTOH, the PLAAF has organic Il-76MD.
Haven’t seen any photo of the Russian Il-76s at Cheng Du.
OTOH, the PLAAF has organic Il-76MD.
here u go in cheng du
More about Mi-26.
http://www.mchs.gov.ru/
In China at present continues work helicopter Mi-26 of MChS of Russia. Crew carries out work on the delivery of heavy technology into the injured regions. Are already executed 52 flights, it is delivered to 473 T. of load.
Russia will be and further to render aid in overcoming of the consequences of earthquake and in the restoration of the destroyed objects in China. “Now this question is studied together with the Chinese side and according to the results of this work will be formed joint program on exchange of experience between the specialists of our countries”, noted Yuri [Brazhnikov]. According to him, Chinese side, in particular, needs training of specialists in the Russian technologies. “The group of Chinese experts already soon will arrive for the instruction to Russia”, it noted hawk-moths. It refined that this understanding was achieved between the head MChS of Russia to Sergey [Shoyg] and him by Chinese associate.
Furthermore, MChS will form the group, which will study the experience of [sychuanskogo] earthquake. “This experience will enter into the practice of warning and reaction to similar cataclysms”, it explained hawk-moths. It noted that MChS constantly improves preventive measures and unique experience of [sychuanskogo] earthquake it will compulsorily prove useful to Russian specialists
star49PLAAF Il-76s and civilian cargo/passenger planes were drafted to deliver supplies to the civilian and military airports in and about Cheng Du, plus Romanian AF, Russian AF, and USAF (but not JASDF) transport planes
Those IL-76 and other were russian emergency ministry planes with that red line. Mchs rossi not Ruaf.
star49Based on that thinking…China can’t afford any sort of military either…or the Olympics…or? Pick your “or”. You also hopelessly missed the sarcastic point of the faked moon landing.
they can afford certain level of military for self defense based on duly paid licenses (Not developing everything by themselves as it will too costly and reinventing the wheel) and Olympic is good if it give them more revenues in tourism/infrastructure etc but if not it is another failure.
Also, you need to take a look at the economic and social condition of the U.S. in the 1950’s. It was anything but nirvana and whatever you think the conditions are currently in the U.S. or where it stands in relation to Western Europe or Asia, I can assure you that the situation is far, far better now in every category than it was then.
Money spent on scientific exploration can always arguably be diverted to some other grater social need. No one will ever argue that saving a child from a typhoid epidemic should be secondary to sending a man to the moon. The fact is though that technological pursuits, such as space programs, inevitably raise the entire society and ultimately help solve those social issues.
Take ur pick. If Euro/Japanese Yen becomes world reserve currency what will happen to dollar and standard of living? There is difference between production based and consumption based GDP.
Investment in Men Space program has very little benefit relative to investment and tieing of top scientist but since Chinese one is not indigenous so i am not expecting huge investment.
star49I completely disagree….no one will ever master everything else. You can place almost every domestic or international need in front of a space program. That’s so very short sighted. Many of the greatest achievements in technology were as a direct result of needs required by putting a man in to space. If the same money had been spent on almost anything else, the return on that investment would nothing in comparison.
However I could be wrong seeing how the moon landing was faked 🙂
The issue is not of moon landing was faked or not but when US started the Space race in response to Sputnik. US was the World wealthiest/Advance country far ahead of EU/Japan combined in almost every field and certainly ahead of Soviet Union. They could afford Moon landing and man space shuttle (it is another issue that they lost that lead in other fields later on and created debt).
But China is no position interms of Space/Arms race because so much other things are left behind. which are far more necessary
So in order to save money for other fields they have to illegal obtain technology through joint venture and employing scientist but not paying legal fee upfront to the firm
http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showthread.php?p=1060498&highlight=china+space#post1060498
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061226/…ia_china_space
The Chinese are still some 30 years behind us, but their space program has been developing very fast,” Perminov said at a news conference. “They are quickly catching up with us.”
Russia sold China the technology that formed the basis of its manned space program, which launched its first astronaut in 2003 and two others in 2005. The Chinese Shenzhou spacecraft closely resembles the Russian Soyuz
“We aren’t transferring any technologies to China now,” Perminov said. “This issue has been under special control of the government.”
He added that some Russian scientists who violated this ban have been punished
http://www.chinaembassy.bg/eng/dtxw/t215698.htm
Under the co-sponsorship of Changchun Municipal S&T Bureau, Changchun High-tech Park, Changchun Branch of the Chinese Academy of Sciences, Jilin University, and Changchun Polytechnic University, the S&T cooperation center was founded on August 2000. With a planned area of 100,000 m2, the center mainly works on collaborative activities in three key international cutting edge areas: optic-machinery-electronic integration, new materials, and pharmaceuticals. Under the cooperation framework, China has signed 52 cooperation agreements with Russia, from which derived some 30 S&T businesses, with 27 projects in negotiations. S&T projects relating to stem cells, coronary stents, and laser mask processing, have gone into preliminary commercial applications
star49Star49 I really don’t understand you.
Why do you take any development or independent decision by China as such an insult?
where i said that they shouldnot do independent development but they will only pay for license when they cannot copy.
China has every right to spend its money and develop a space program as well as move forward with indigenous aircraft.
Sending person to Space is for those who had mastered everything else. I does not make sense when other critical needs are left for decades.
In the defence arena it makes utter sense to develop their own fighter aircraft in the form of the J-10 the shear size of their defence replacement program dictates that. That China has used western and Russian technology for this shows a pragmatic streak by the local aviation industry, why reinvent the wheel?
It does not make sense to have two fourthe generations fighters at same time when they have pretty much similar role. If some one else make mistake in 70-80s there is no point in repeating it.
As for the civil sector China wants thousands of civil airliners, getting licence production for the A320 makes sense its very succesful. Its a popular type and Airbus can make a far more attractive partnership offer then the makers of the TU204. In the end whilst the TU204 isn’t bad it is in effect a Russian Boeing 757 with a very small user base. The IL96 underperforms in comparison to Airbus and Boeing types, I wouldn’t regard it as an attractive type for local production.
China want thousands of airlines but they could have got licenses of Tupolev/Illysian in late 80s and by now they would have been in second genertion manufacturing by themselevs. Now they are three decades behind by taking a wrong turn. and China does not gain anything from A-320 license when it is under Airbus control thats why they have separate 150 passenger project.
Finally Star49 I have some advice:
Please Please Please! can you stop using the “Quote” option for every single line of someones post you don’t like! Reading your posts are enough to give anyone a headache:confused: You don’t need to rebuke every point line by line. Its difficult to follow and frankly after a while I don’t bother reading your posts. I’m sure you have a good point to make but it gets swamped under the single line quotes. What you need to do is use one block quote at the beginning of you post so we know who’s post your talking about then write one or two paragraphs clearly to explain your point.Also can you stop google searching random news reports to proove you point it drags the thread away from the main issue as we start having to read obscure news items about machine tools!
Believe me if you made those changes I think people would give you far more respect here which is something you seem to crave.
OK 😀
Fedaykin
Bringing Machine tools issue is critical otherwise People start claiming that J-11 quality is better than 1980s Su-27SK.
The main point is China will only buy licenses when It cannot copy or most of time starting believing on themselves just look what happened to helicopters/advance trainer/transports and i have no doubt the same will happen to Civilain airline production.
star49you just can’t accept truth, that’s your problem.
Because you dont have any data of sorties and flight per hour and to what altitude.
alright, why is nobody buying these Russian aircrafts then? Why do the Russians need to create a smaller superjet 100 just to break into the Western market? Clearly, these are not built to modern commercial airliner standards. There is a huge difference between airliner and transports. I don’t even see how ARJ-21 is fitting in this conversation. It’s not a transport, it’s an airliner.
From where this information comes from? There isnt a difference in making a transport and civil airlines. The only difference is Civil airlines are supported by banks with creative leases and Transports are bought by Government money in most countries. China had the opportunity in early 90s with big state owne airlines to build its own manufacturing capacity.
Russian Civil airlines have so much orders that they cant produce them per year. (New production capacity is coming in 2010).The same is happening with helicoptors. new export deliveries are pushed back to 2011. Sukhoi SSJ was Sukhoi started as Private venture with western firms hav risk sharing agreements. why do u think Snecma invested $500m just in engine alone and Thales made
this has to be the stupidest thing that you’ve said. That China should neglect the most important two projects in its technological field so that it can have more of an army aviation wing? We abandon the future of our air force just so that we can buy more of your mi-17s? You do realize that they bought over 200 of them, right? You do realize the army and the air force and the space all have their separate budget, right?
why it is stupid. when ur entire airline industry is based on foreign airlines and with all associated costs with spares, pilot training etc but have to send man to space without any benefit and build a 4th generation fighter when another license of Su-27SK was in negotiation since early 90s. Chengdu could have been changed into Civillian airline business. Only one manufacturer is enough for Fighter aircraft for same generation.
the cost part or the tibet elevation part? the second, i have a poster proving that. Ka-32 is a different story, but the Mi-171 we get is definitely cheaper than Z-8.
MI-171 with VK-2500 engines are not exported to that many countries. so how can any posters know about its capability? And it is expensive with 9000hr engines with FADEC etc.
star49from all Chinese reports coming out of the relief, blckhawk were the best helicopters we had.
Chinese reports? Most of it is just nonsense.
why would we want planes that can’t compete with Western airliners? If your Tu-204/il-96 was so amazing, all the major airlines would be buying them instead of A-320 and B-737. Are you so ignorant that you don’t understand countries would rather develop their own plane than buying ToT of someone else?
First they are not inferior and Second i am talking about manufacturing in China in 90s. And I am not ignorant. China cannot make even ARJ-21 by itself let alone some thing bigger 15 years ago.
Two things: cost of helicopter and pilots. PLA doesn’t have enough of either to get 1000. You clearly don’t understand the kind of problems PLA faces.
It is the misplaced priorities of PLA like making a stunt of sending man into space or developing J-10 instead of what was needed in 90s and was available at low cost.
Z-8F with the new PW engines has no problem with flying in Tibetan altitude. The problem with it is the cost, not the performance.
You dont have any data to back it up. and new MI-171/Ka-32 are also very costly.
star49From TMC.
http://www.ktrv.ru
The aircraft modular controlled missiles of the type X -38[Me] are intended for the defeat of the wide nomenclature of the armored, durable, highly vulnerable ground-based single and group, and also above-water objects in the coastal zone.
The extended combat capabilities of rockets X -38[Me] it is ensured due to the creation on the basis of different types of the guidance systems and different combat equipment of a modular number of the rockets:
– X -38[MLe] – with the combined guidance system, which includes inertial guidance system and semi-active laser [GSN];
– X -38[MKe] – with the combined guidance system, which includes inertial guidance system and satellite navigation;
– X -38[MTe] – with the combined guidance system, which includes inertial guidance system and thermal-vision [GSN];
– X -38[MAe] – with the combined guidance system, which includes inertial guidance system and active radar [GSN].
With the starting mass of rockets to 520 kgf the mass of warhead can comprise to 250 kgf and be equipped with different types of combat equipment.
Launching range – to 40 km.
Basic dimensional dimensions:
– length – is 4,2 m;
– the diameter of housing – 0,31[m].
Aircraft and helicopters of different types can be rocket bearers
Kh-58. Mach 4 speed. 70 to 245 km range.
The antiradar missile X -58[UShKe] of inner fuselage and external arrangement with the broadband (combined range A, [A]’, [v], [V]’, [s]) passive radar homing head ([SHPRGS]) and the system of navigation and automatic control on the base of platformless navigation system ([BINS]) is intended for the defeat of the ground radar, which work in the mode of the pulse emission of in the range carrier frequencies 1,2… 11 GHz and in the mode of continuous emission in the range a.
Rocket can be used both from the external points of the suspension of the contemporary aircraft, [osnashchennykh] by the system of aim designation and equipped with aviation catapult installation of the type [AKU]-58, and from the inner fuselage points of suspension (from the ejection device of the type [UVKU]-50).
Is ensured the application of a rocket both on the programmed RLS- purposes and on the purposes, operationally discovered by the system of the aim designation of carrier aircraft.Developer – joint stock company “Of [gosMKB] “rainbow”
Fundamental tactical-technical characteristics
Altitude range of the flight of carrier at the moment of launching of rocket, km – 0.2 km to the service ceiling of the flight of the aircraft
Speed range (Mach numbers) of the flight of carrier at the moment of the launch of the rocket:
– from the external points of suspension – 0,47… 1,5
Maximum launching range of rocket with the maximum speed of carrier for the altitude range of launching [N]0 = 200… 20000 m:
– from the underwing points of suspension, km – 76… 245
Target aspect angle at the moment of the launch of rocket deg. – ±15°
Minimum launching range of rocket from the height Of [n]0 of =200 m, km – 10… 12
The maximum speed of rocket flight km/h – 4200
System of control – [SNAU] on the base [BINS]+[SHPRGS]
The probability of hit of rocket into the circle of a radius of 20 m, in center of which is located working RLS – is not less than 0,8
The warhead:
– type – explosive
– mass, kgf – 149
Starting mass of rocket kgf – 650
Overall sizes of rocket with the folded consoles of wing and tail assembly, m:
– length – 4,19
– width – 0,4
– height – 0,4
Span of wing – 0,8
Diameter of housing – 0,38
With the creation of new models we consider forecast studies of the development of the armaments, which show that next decade the appearance of promising weapon they will determine new materials, engine installations (including hypersonic), information and telecommunication technologies, nano-technologies, technologies of imitation and simulation, technology of decision making. Already today onboard systems with the elements of the artificial intellect are capable of solving target-assignment problems under the conditions of interference situation, of building the optimum of the maneuvers of overcoming antimissile defense and so forth Decrease in overall sizes and mass component product, reaching of contemporary microelectronics open the new possibilities of improving of technical flight characteristics, reduction in distinctness. And nevertheless main direction – unification. It is significant, that because of the unification this known rocket, as X -25 replaced a whole series of rockets and, until now it is found in arsenal. X -35[e] in an even larger volume repeats the history of rocket X -25. It is used both on dry land and at sea, also, in air. This is a reduction in the cost of production and operation.
– Is it possible in more detail to describe about the universal rocket X -38[Me] and about the state of works on other new articles?
– We showed and described that, to that we have permission. The universality of rocket X -38[Me] is ensured due to the realization of the principle of modularity, which we successfully realized in the family of a model number of the type X -25[m]. On the base X -38[Me] can be created the family of the rockets, which have different principles of guidance, which will ensure their effective application on different purposes under varied conditions. Today X -38[Me] is located on the preparation stage of prototypes, rocket X -31[Ad] and X -58[UShKe] undergo flight tests. – In 1980-1990- X years in a number of the countries of world conducted active work on the creation of the hypersonic rockets of those, including damaging purpose by kinetic impact.
– How your relation to the weapon, built on similar principles?
– Partly this principle we have long ago realized. Rockets X -31[a] and X -35[e] on the beaten purposes relate to one class, but warhead X -31[a] is one and a half times less. Identical effectiveness is reached due to additional kinetic component of rocket X -31[a], due to the higher flight speed. The introduction of hypersonic technologies will considerably reduce flight time and will lower the level of losses from the air defense weapons. Will increase the destructive properties. Our experience of the mastery of ramjet engines (X -31 3[M]-80[E]) allows for us news systematic works on the mastery of these promising technologies.
star49Z-8 has the same payload as Mi-17.
Z-15 as utility chopterOr better yet just buy more AS332L2
god knows PLA already owns them.
what is its altitude vs Mi-171V5? China should have decided a decade ago about Mi-17 license. considering hundreds have been bought anyway and now assembling in 2008. Poor decision making.
http://en.klimov.ru/production/helicopter/VK-2500/
Improved Safety
Should one of he engines fail, the flight safety is greatly enhanced owing to the emergency power feature (2700 hp) of the VK-2500 engine.
VK-2500 engines as components of a MI-17-V5 power plant passed tests in the mountains of Tibet.
The service life of a VK-2500 may reach 9,000 hours
u need this thing.
http://www.kamov.ru/market/news/prese.htm
The Ka-32A Multipurpose helicopter presented on MAKS has no equals in its class and it is capable to lift bulky cargo of up to 5,000 kg on external sling from mountain platforms of 2,500 m above sea level. The helicopter still retains the world record 8,215 m of horizontal flight.
Ka-32 helicopters of various modifications are successfully used in Canada, South Korea, Switzerland, Malaysia, Papua-New Guinea and other countries.The Company is planning to design new modifications of the helicopter with more powerful engines that will allow to increase its carrying capacity up to 7 tons
here is the certificate that was given now.
http://www.royfc.com/acft_news_old_jun2.html#11jun
MAK Concludes Certification of Ka-32 Helicopter for PRC((Certificate of type Number VTC0215A issued on 21 May 2008 for the KA-32A11BC and Number VTC0090E for the TV3-117VMA engine installed on this helicopter.))
Source: 09.06.08, AVIA.RU
star49News for you.
June 11 (Bloomberg) — China’s military commanders said they
will push for the development of rescue helicopters for use
during disasters because a lack of equipment hampered their work
after the country’s strongest earthquake in 58 years…may need 1,867 helicopters worth $4.9 billion by 2013, according to the government’s forecast….State-owned China Aviation Industry Corp. II agreed in 2005
to invest 600 million euros ($931 million) with European
Aeronautic, Defence & Space Co.’s Eurocopter SA unit to build
helicopters in China.
Eurocopter and Avic II plan to produce a medium-size
helicopter capable of carrying 16 passengers by 2011, according
to a September 2006 European Commission statement approving
French government aid to the project.So basically Cheap Mi-17 doesn’t cut it anymore. PLA is going to get funding for better planes.
16 passenger helicopter in 2011 is not in Mi-17/Ka-32 class. u need 30 passenger to match that with single engine power in emergency to lift loads to high altitude.
I am not even going into heavy lift Mi-26.
star49What would happen if China decided to assert themselves in their quest for sovereignty? Russia is one of the first neighbors that would have to contend with the problem. Right now China pays for things from Russia because it has to in order to get them. If China suddenly changed places in the global pecking order things would get quite ugly for Russia, and quick.
Right now Russia has China feeding out of their hands. They can stump Chinese industry by feeding them the solutions that are little to no effort to reverse engineer and leak them ways to do things that look right but are actually quite wrong from a effort-reward perspective. And since China is effectively riding the coattails of Russian technology there is less chance of a change in the status quo.
Actually Russian want to help Chinese in there Aviation development by offering various projects like making big Jumbo couple of years back or Sukoi its Regional jet but it is the corrupt military/industrial complex of China which want to copy mix-match of east and west without paying the rightful price to both sides and the end result is obvious. Russian government is far sophisticated than anything can up from Chinese or for that matter any other country.
http://www.isn.ethz.ch/news/sw/details.cfm?ID=19071
Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov argued that “for the first time in many years, a real competitive environment has emerged on the market of ideas” between “different value systems and different models.” In other words, there is a newly vibrant power-driven and authoritarian model of development.
star49what the heck are you talking about? Do you know about the performance of the helicopter in the earthquake? Do you know that blackhawks were still the best helicopter through the crisis despite the recent Mi-17 purchases?
where is the evidence. show me sortie rate and per hour costs? For third world countries Soviet/Russian equipment are the best because of simplicity and price. u tried to jump directly into first world and see the result now. there is alot of other stupid decisions that Chinese made.
Why would we want tu-204 or il-96? We already got the license for Mi-17 and we got ripped off on IL-76.
I mean building your own Tu-204/IL-96 in 90s when Oil was cheap (economics of airline was not a big factor) but it would have given big lift to Chinese manufacturing ability and by now u wouldnt even need license for A-320 or ARJ-21 sitting on the ground. and U cannot make 60 tons IL-76MF with 60000 to 80,000 flight hours with ICAO 4 noise and 15% fuel efficiency. here is new models
http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2008/06/09/224495/red-wings-takes-its-first-new-tu-204-100b.html
Red Wings ordered six Tu-204-100Bs in August 2007 and in October added a commitment for four Tu-204-100SM1s. The latter variant is equipped with more efficient Perm PS-90A2 turbofans, two-pilot flightdeck, upgraded auxiliary power unit and conditioning system and lighter wiring. Aviastar expects to deliver eight Tu-204s this year.
From the europeans, we got Z-15 project, got help on Z-10 project, got Z-8, Z-9, EC-120, CA-109 ToT and our Z-11 is developed based on Squirrel. Everything we have right now is thanks to the Europeans.
how many do u have in operations?. If u had got Mi-17/Mi-26/Ka-32 license in 90s. By now u would have more than 1000 of them. u lost big time. Just Russia exported more than 1000 in mean time.
star49And where the hell is it written that OLS can detect missiles? Oh no where what a pitty. Honestly I give a sh!t on what you interprete in the or that news release/article. Of course it’s theoreticaly possible, but there is no single word lost about it. Your own intepretion won’t change that. So tell me why there is the SOAR if the OLS is already capable of missile wanring?
As usual you quote much stuff which answers no real question at all, nor does it prove anything. Of course you are free to believe what you want. But me likes to see some evidence and not articles which you can interpret a lot, but which prove nothing in the end. Let alone that those articles are known to me as well.
where is my interpretation. shapes of both air and ground targets.
Optical locator system should work in 360 degrees. and if you are asking about sosar than i may ask why radar is necessary when IRST is 10 times more effective?
http://www.aviapedia.com/video/new-mig-35-ols-video
MiG engineers have defined basic points of the optical locator system development:
– multispectrality. System should work both in visible and IR ranges
– integrity. TV and IR systems, laser ranging system should be united in one solid construction
– system should work on wide angles, up to 360 and identify shapes of aerial and ground targets
star49this very funny story. Spending 7 years on negotiation just to bring the price down and than start believing on your own industry that they can deliver the product on time, cost and similar capability. China missied big in 90s when Russia was more than willing to offer licenses and joint projects like Mi-17/IL-76/Tu-204/IL-96 etc but Chinese spent hundreds of billions on Western airline s and eurocopter projects which had no relation with military, strategic airlift and local expertize development. So end result caught with pants down in earth quake. i dont think Chinese helicopters are equiped with navigation and infrared systems that can see through clouds. and offcourse not putting money to fund oil pipeline that alone save costs 20% in transporting oil through supertankers.
http://upiasiaonline.com/Security/2008/06/10/china_to_renegotiate_russian_aircraft_deal/4507/
China to renegotiate Russian aircraft deal
star49Show me a single source which suggests that the OLS-K & UEM are used as MAWS!
they said detection of air objects even with stealth. now where it is written missiles cannot be detected. and it is 10 times better than previous one and is further going to improve.
OLS-UEM with 360 deg coverage? Lol you inventing new physics!
http://www.aviapedia.com/video/new-mig-35-ols-video
All the units are united into one system with help of interface unit. Complex is checking aerial field constantly and is able to detect dangerous objects by itself.Viktor Sumerin, NII PP deputy general designer: “In addition, our system has high-level calculation unit. As a part, there are three CPUs of the Pentium4 level. They help to analyze the picture, allow system to work in overview mode, detect targets on long distances and on the sun-lighted clouds background.”
In the first time this complex uses fiber channel for the data transmission. Fiber was adopted especially for this complex. It passes digital signal and the transfer speed reaches 600 Mbit/s – it’s brilliant parameter.
Viktor Sumerin, NII PP deputy general designer: “For example, this is one of the IR detectors. This is narrow-field detector. Here all the data are being passed by the fiber channel.”
Besides, new fiber channel is very reliable – by the words of the engineers it will work even if heavy tank goes over
OLS created in NII PP is not just another modern instrument. This is the totally new device which completely fits the idea of 5th generation combat plane. Already today parameters of the OLS are about ten times better then the ones of old systems. But NII PP is not going to stop. The next stage of the development will be to upgrading the optical complex intelligence level and to combine it with onboard radar.
Using high technologies engineers are going to improve their OLS. “Space-born” eyes of the newest Russian MiG-35 fighter will become even more sharp.
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