building airdefence starting from commodities. new airdefence system will use supercomputers.

Almaz-Antey to deploy $500 million’s worth facility in St. Pete

ST. PETERSBURG. June 10 (Interfax-AVN) – The Almaz Antey Air Defense Consortium has taken up the first phase of the project to set up a $500 million “techno-park” on the basis of the Obukhovsky Zavod company in St. Petersburg.

According to the company’s press release, the technological area will be over 300,000 square meters large, and will accommodate manufacturing facilities for the production of both air defense systems and commodities.

Such a production center will help the consortium to improve the coefficient of using industrial facilities, exclude redundancy of production, reduce the production time, optimize management and cut non-production expenditures.

The Almaz Antey Air Defense Consortium is a large defense holding of Russia, embracing 57 industrial and research and development companies, organizations, design bureaus and research and development institutes in several regions of Russia. Its main products are air defense systems.

how this 3G and than 4G is going to change military communication with widely distributed computers interconnected.

http://eng.cnews.ru/news/top/indexEn.shtml?2008/04/25/298691
Russia: Sun to convert military frequencies to 3G
April 25, 2008, Integration

The first in Eastern Europe high-performance computing competence center has been established on the basis of the Russian Radio Research and Development Institute (NIIR), the Sun Microsystems equipment being used. NIIR invested 200 m rubles into the project. The Jet Infosystems Integrator performed the project. The NIIR Competence Centers is planned to be engaged in converting radio frequencies, in particular, releasing military frequencies for 3G and digital television.

Nobody expects stupidity. If it is perceived to be in the national interest countries will do the dumbest things.

When there is no money. u canot expect any actions. Europeans/US banks badly burnt while Russian banks are well capitalized. Infact combined profits exceeding all of West banks. It is EADS that is in takeover fear not the otherway around. Remember in capitalist nothing happens without money.

No, but if true the waste does not bode well for the future of the Russian Armed forces.

Nope he knows that the if he does not start large scale production now he will lose all the workers along with skills and experiance. thats the huge difference between Sukhoi and MIG factories.

Your solution will work though… with only PAK-FAs, Su-34s and Su-27BMs new built the Russian AF will only have about 800 planes anyway.

But those 800 planes are much better than 10,000 obsolete junk that will take all the gas and personal resources to fly them properly. it is the range, payload, sensor power, speed that matters.

Making good decisions in addition to luck. But keep in mind of those places, Japan became the west (ie Japan was basically the US for a time) and SK and Singapore are small countries. China always had huge potential and things are currently going well, and the same can be said for Russia, but it is a tight rope walk and a fall can be as simple as a new fuel source (for Russia) or increasing wages in China meaning cheap stuff is made in Africa somewhere instead.
Such things are hard to predict… but you know what I mean. A small thing can change and everything goes t!ts up.

These all countries prosper under one party system. It is not luck. they took advantage of ColdWar as West busy in military buildup with Soviets so they have to transfer all the Civillian production knowledge to East Asia. Russia is doing exactly the same. Africa cannot have production and efficiency of China. It is the strong central government that can moblise huge resources into infrastructure projects/Education/Supply chain efficiency/Skill development.

Russia needs to ignore what others are doing and decide what it wants for itself. Having a superpower armed forces is nice, but it has a social and economic cost. Better living standards, improving the lot of the average Joe and making sure those at the top remember who is below them and why.

Superpower armed forces are actually beneficial than conscript type army. All advance research goes towards Civillian production. what do u think about all those Supercomputing and wireless technologies?

For the Mig-29K? I thought the first 16 were confirmed to be built in Russia and supplied built. Any other orders will be negotiated and might include Indian assembly, but the 700 million was for an airwing built by MIG.
Local production/assembly doesn’t make sense for 16 and if they don’t buy any more then it is a bit of a waste. If they order 60 more then local assembly makes a bit of sense, but to assemble 12 themselves to have 16 aircraft is strange.

I am talking about MIG-29SMT upgrade for IAF.

Considering the condition they were probably in I would call it a near full upgrade.

Depends. when u want to keep aircraft for next 15 to 20 years. u need to change to Glass cockpit, advance communication and EW systems along with engines.

No, I think the RuAF are smart… who wants a 6,000 hour brand new Su-27SM that will operate for 50 years when what they want is an interim fighter to operate and get the airforce up to date operating aircraft with LCD displays and active radar homing AAMs… you know things a few Mig-29SM pilots, and a few Su-27SM pilots and a handful of Mig-31 pilots and a couple of Su-34 pilots might have experienced?

those 6000 hrs Su-35 also carrier 11.5 ton internal fuel along 2500L tanks. And it has only Two LCD cockpit not that mix cockpit of MIG-29SM.

Of course they will, they use the Utes 12.7mm HMG on their tank turrets too, but are gradually changing to KORD HMGs made in Russia. A lot of Ukrainian trucks are in Russian Army service too and they are gradually being replaced too. Not urgently dropped immediately, but as they are replaced they are replaced with Russian equipment when it is available. Another example is the Ansat helo, that uses Pratt & Whitney engines is going to enter Russian service in a few years time but a new engine is being developed and should be ready when the helos enters service.

When u want to give new business u better give it to your own firms as it will boost the stock price but if alternative is not available at economical price they will buy from Ukraine.

The Al-55 was suggested as an option for the Yak-130 and will likely be the engine of choice in Russian service.
When the AL-55 is perfected it is likely to replace a foreign engine on a local jet trainer… otherwise they might as well have just bought L-59s to replace their L-39s and L-29s.

AL-55 is not tested on Yak-130 and Yak-130 is more advance than L-39.

Claiming MIG is crap just because the Mig-29 has not exported as well as the Flanker is pretty harsh. Have you picked out your best son or daughter and have chosen to ignore the rest because they just aren’t good enough?

Sorry Sergei… you are a brilliant engineer but go and work in a coal mine because MIG is finished and Sukhoi aren’t hiring at the moment.

MIG-29 is crap as far as Ruaf is concerned. It may or maynot performed well in exports but that is irrelevant.

Currently the only real 5th gen fighters are the F-22 and F-35 and I agree that OAK can’t make those on its current budget.

Can it make a Mig-35 with a stealthy airframe shape that is able to supercruise. Yes, I do believe it could. And I think that would be cheap enough for rather more countries to afford it than they could afford the PAK-FA.

Why u want to spend money on MIG-35 when Sukhoi is already doing 5th generation work for past 6 years?

In fact if they can keep costs reasonable… say a single engine no VSTOL stealthy plane or a stealthy twin with perhaps 10 ton thrust RD-33s or something slightly better like 12 ton thrust RD-45s and Mig-35 AESA and avionics customers of the PAK-FA might even want it too… as a cheaper aircraft they can use to maintain numbers.

It is not gone a happen no matter how much you wish. 5th generation is much more difficult/expensive than what are u describing

So the increased cost of raw materials doesn’t matter now?

It matter but dont want to convert raw materials into inferior product.

So to direct your interceptors to targets over the battlefield (in the air and on the ground) your AWACS needs to see the ground. Even if it had a zero RCS it will emit radar waves and be vulnerable to passive homing missiles.

why do u think such powerful radar which are almost equal to AWACS are put in fighters now and it will increase with introduction GaNs based AESA.?

With few airbases the flight paths from Russian Airbases to a country can be estimated. Radar coverage is quite broad too.

Considering they will be trying to defend themselves from surgical strikes having ships near coastal targets would be enough.

Against Russia/China bringing a ship near to coast will be sucidal.

Countries with shinier toys rarely do. They usually underestimate their enemies and think just turning up will mean they will win. In western Europe that was all that was needed in WWII remember.

Western Eu does not have natural resources and manpower to put into single battle field.

I wasn’t criticising the Japanese. They might pay too much for their weapons, but they are certainly supporting their own industries by making things themselves as licensed copies so to speak.

They are not license in everything. Them make there own Radars/Composite wings/LCD displays/navigation system.

The Algerian SMTs were vastly overpriced because they were for debt clearance. If you owed me $1,000 and to clear the debt I offered to sell you something I wanted to sell then I would have to give you generous terms.
In other words I will ignore the $1,000 dollars you owe me if you buy $10,000 worth of stuff from me now. You save the $1,000 you owed me and get $10,000 dollars worth of credit to spend, but the stuff I sell you I will charge you more for each item than I would have if you had owed me nothing. You still end up saving some money but I get to sell you new products where otherwise I might have only gotten a few interest payments instead.

So what do u think about IAF MIG-29SMT?

They are working on UAVs, but that doesn’t mean they should not upgrade old MIGs. They are actually upgrading old MIGs as we speak… Mig-31s.

I told you MIG-31 has role to play and upgrade started from 1999 and it has engine commonality. when did Ruaf MIG-29 upgrade started?

By now most will be Mig-29S and Mig-29SM.

so even less range.

A Bear is a long range aircraft… it has longer range than most tankers so apart from a top up after takeoff, unless it is flying in circles near the end of its flight it will not be near friendly tankers.

Just had a look at the quote and it was 24 fixed wing aircraft plus UAVs.

I am sure they will change it when they look at current prices.

History has proven aircraft can’t win wars and there is nothing that can replace a tank… except another tank.

History is not indicator of future. u cannot lose 27 millions like world war 2 and still claim victory. it is very different times.

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Because it is beyond the financial ability of most of the world it makes sense to make a cheaper option that can be made in large numbers. The USAF is getting 189 F-22s and about 1,200 F-35s Do you think 400 PAK-FAs would suffice against that… even ignoring the NATO F-35s added to that number, plus the Typhoons, Rafales, Gripens, etc etc.

who said they will stop at 400? it is based on continous production run for next 30 to 40 years. u cannot start and stop production it will destroy the costly supply chain.

Yes… I know you will say there is no need to take on everyone at once, but what is the point of large numbers of very very expensive 5th gen fighters if you are not going to go to war with them?

Buying all top of the line is a nice concept, but unreasonable for anyone to adopt as policy. No one can afford to do that.

they can certainly afford do to that provided they concentrated resources on yearly bases.

See my response to franc about that.
You can figure it out there.

with one inflight refuelling range is increased to 5000KM. how possible to increase from 2775KM to 5000KM when there is extra 5000KG fuel in drop tanks to achieve 2775KM.

Under similar condition (3 tons bomb-load) the AR is at 900 nm for the F-111compared to 332 nm for the Su-24.
That is a difference well over 100% to stay polite.

900nm at sea level?

I am talking in terms of current and near future options. Right now there are less than half a dozen Su-34s in the Russian AF and they are fitting out and having manuals written for them. A surgical strike right now would be made by Su-24M2s. A long range strike will be by Tu-22M3s. When the Su-34s are available in numbers and are properly operational they will be the weapon of choice. Later there might be a few sneaky beak missions where secrecy is paramount and a PAK-FA might be used.

Current option is Su-27SM that has SAR mode like Su-30MK2. There is no option with MIG-29 or Su-24 in terms of numbers and sophistication and range.

And an energy war in the future it is not possible that if things turn and change that NATO might think regime change in Russia and seizing Russian resources might be necessary?
A border dispute with Georgia with Georgia as part of NATO might serve as a Gulf of Tonkin incident part III.

Nato does not have the money to do anything. It will create more debt and seeing how credit squeezed. I dont expect any stuipidity.

Su-27BM is also being called Su-27SM2.

have u read about Putin visit where he said new built fighters should be bought instead of ugprading old one.

Few airfields means fewer targets for the enemies to hit to take out your AF. It also makes mission planning for the enemy because interceptors will be coming from fewer directions… easier to plan for. Equally with fewer airfields they suddenly become very busy with everyone needing to train or perform operations… chaos.

But it is much better defended when sophisticated airdefence and underground protection. There is personal shortage already which is getting worse.

Which is silly. How do you get a wealthy society in the first place without good decisions?

How Singpore/SK/Japan/China got wealthy at much faster rate than West?. Russia has to maintain even faster rate than them.

What makes you think that? They have about 68 aircraft. If it takes 3-4 years for one then it would take 100 years for all aircraft. You are talking rubbish.

First 4 will be upgrade by Russia the rest is HAL job. and it may take upto 2013 to complete.

Serbian aircraft were upgraded in less than 3-4 years. They knew what they wanted and paid for it and got it in the timeframe they wanted it.

Serbian aircraft nowwhere at Su-27SM level with new engines, fbw, IRST, EW , datalinks etc.

Indeed they are, which makes it all the harder to say one is better than another based just on a few parameters like flight range, radar size and number of weapons pylons.

Sukhoi has much longer life than any MIG plain built. do u think Chinese/Indian/Malaysians/Algerian/Ruaf are stupid?

Of course they will, but they are not going to use a Ukrainian component when a Russian component is just as good if not better. Especially if they have to start paying in Euros for things.
The Russians have introduced a lot of Russian kit to replace items formerly from other Soviet Republics. Some of the kit is even joint developed with western firms… if they are going to pay Euros and deal with a foreign country for parts or weapons why not deal with Rolls Royce for engines instead of Motor Sich?

They will continue to use Ukrianian components as long as it is economical. There is no AL-55 on Yak-130 for next 5 years alteast when all Ruaf planes will be deliveredl.

Might find that if they were designed by Motor Sich that pretty soon they will be made in Russia. If not then the AL-55 made by Saturn might be used instead for the Russian Yak-130s.

They are using MIG-AT test bed for AL-55. Yak-130 engine contract is with Salut. These are long term contracts.

Company managers just need to know how to manage companies. It is the company that contains the human and material resources that design aircraft.

You were claiming that it is design bureau that are incharge. But now it is factory that is incharge and design bureau is a subcontractor.

But if they kill off their aircraft design companies and destroy competition within their own industry they will end up without an industry. For every aircraft competition in the Soviet Union there would ususally be 3-5 contenders from different design bureaus depending upon the type. Some can be eliminated quickly as obviously being too outlandish, but there are usually two serious competitors to keep the designers on their toes.

Those design bureaus will close down with time anyway when no one wants to join them.

If you allow MIG to die then the next fighter project for Russia will be a one horse race. Who will push Sukhoi?

The government will push Sukhoi to deliver.

Have you told OAK this?

According to this:

http://www.ato.ru/rus/cis/archive/20-2008/def/def3/

Specifically this:

Now if the role of MIG within OAK is to be UAVs why would the head of OAK mention that MIG is working on a light 5th gen fighter?

can he say that he is building 5th generation for Ruaf? The answer is no. It is just make impression in IAF tender regarding MIG future. It is beyond the technical and financial ability of MIG to make 5th generation fighter on its own. not even external partern can afford it.

Yes. You know. Take 10,000 empty Al drink cans and melt them down and make new aircraft from them instead of buying more Al. Same with other metals and various types of plastics etc etc.

nope. It is maintaining and flying aircraft that is huge expense. U only need the best to fly.

An AWACs is a powerful sensor but also a very powerful jammer too. No point in hiding your sensor assets if they are too far away from the battle to see what is happening.

The otherside also got AWACS and AWACS has huge RCS signature. The only point for AWACS is to guide the aircraft to battlefield and use fighter radars in last moment for execution.

You can use tankers anywhere there is no threat. The point is that most oceans are international waters so if you are attacking someone they could park a ship in international waters and deny you the ability to operate tankers there.

Oceans are pretty big. u cannot cover that with Ships. there is always space for airrefueling at safe distance and long range of Flankers gives that flexibility.

You haven’t justified why Su-35 is necessary either.

It is clearly related to PAK-FA both for testing and industrial reasons.

So who had the Shinier toys… the US or the VC?

do u think US used all its power in right way?

So you want to learn from Japan? They make the most expensive stuff… their F-16s cost twice as much as American F-16s. But Japan just takes American stuff and makes it with their own components at two to three times the price. Means they are investing their money in their own industries but at the end of the day their armed forces really don’t get value for money.

Japanese have the right idea of introducing composites, LCD and AESA radar but external influences make the project expensive. Russia doesnot have that hinderance. They have to implement Japanese manufacturing techniques. why do u think they machinery from Mitsubishi? because they want to implement those procedures of efficiency and quality.
http://www.npo-saturn.ru

So now Flankers are cheaper than Fulcrums?

compare knapo Su-30MK2 price with Algerian SMT for same year? i am not even going into new built MIG-29K/M price. IN agreement was signed in 2004

The only UAVs in Russian service right now are the artillery spotting Pchelkas and of course the Tu-143 Reis. Neither have the endurance or capabilities anywhere near what you are talking about. Right now a Mig-29 could do the job and a Mig-29SMT could do a better job but no UAVs or UCAVs are currently available that could do that job for Russia. Till the Skat is operational of course.

It does not mean they are going to waste money in upgrading old aircraft. they will better spent that money in developing UAV which takes less time than upgrading old MIGs.

There are no short range Mig-29s with limited sensors. Mig-29s are medium range aircraft with datalinks to ground based radars that give them excellent sensor range. Their onboard radars contribute to that radar picture by adding low level features.

There is MIG-29SMT in Ruaf?

Americas greatest problems in its global reach is foreign basing. Do you really think if lots of tankers were the solution and you could get away with not using aircraft carriers or foreign bases that they would? Three B-52s set out on a round the world flight to set a record. They needed over 60 inflight refuellings to make that nonstop flight. The Soviet Union could not have done that at that time. Russia probably couldn’t do that now without a lot of planning and preparation and foreign good will support.

It is better to spend money in building tankers than wasting money on foreign bases. . how do u think Bear manages 20 hr patrol? or Su-34 10 hrs?

Why not? How many aircraft do you think the Brits had on the Hermes?

How many fighters do you need to protect a carrier group?

How many carriers are in a carrier group?

when the price of labor, energy and raw materials goes through the roof. No one in right frame of mind will built a carier for 30 aircraft? 30 aircraft just dont have any impact on large battfield.

Yes, you are very westernised. Airpower won WWII afterall… and Kosovo…. Oops no it didn’t. In fact when was the last time airpower did win a war? It hasn’t.

Airpower can win wars when used in right way and in future holds for airpower alone. Tanks are going obsolete.

They are easy to hide from. They can’t take or hold ground or sea. They are flashy showoffs of no use. If you think using only airpower would have helped in Chechnia or Afghanistan then you are dreaming the dream… but the bad news is that that is all it is… a dream.

without airpower things would be alot more difficult. Why do u think they want to increase helicopters/UAV/aircraft production but not not ground sysems in same proportions. Future is for airborne troops that u can drop with speed.

I don’t have any evidence the Su-35 will be ordered either.

there is no need for some thing so obvious.

Because they don’t need them. If the AF gets lots of stealth fighters, the Army will demand T-95s in large numbers too. The Navy will want more as well. How can you justify wasting money on lots of fairly useless stealth fighters when so many other things in the Russian military need money too.

I told you so. Tanks are obsolete. These are bought in small numbers just for industrial reason. no one is going to waste steel on building them. aircrafts both civilian and military are going towards composite.

Twice range compared to old smokey inefficient old engines. Besides fuel is not included in maintainence costs. 2,500L fuel tanks can fit on Migs as well.

2500L tanks and MIG? show me on MIG website.

Because JSF is stealthy Buccaneer, not a real fighter. You can use a smaller cheaper 5th gen fighter to deal with the 1,200 odd JSFs and B-2s while the PAK-FA can cross swords with the F-22s.

Cheaper 5th generation is oxymoron. there is little cost difference between single and twin engine and twin engine atleast gives you more safety, acceleration, supercrusie and bigger space for radar and power supply. no one is going to waste money on small 5th generation fighter. Why do you think bigger AWACS is preferred over smaller one?

If they had Mig-27s operational they could have flown them low and slow over Chechnia to observe instead of using big Su-27s. Mig-27 is better armoured than Su-27s and probably wouldn’t have been lost to small arms fire like the Su-27 was.
It would have also been much more effective and accurate in a strike role in Chechnia.

MIG-27 does not even have range and payload of Su-27 and more than likely they would have lost in greater numbers because of there unsophisticated nature.

If by redundant, you mean in service doing a good job, then yes it is redundant… just like the Flanker.

why they are deploying Flankers to Kant airfield but not MIG-29?

Yes. Monopoly is good. That is why Russia should give up its 5th gen fighter program. Only USA should have 5th gen stealth aircraft. In fact the US should keep all the foreign funds invested in JSF and not export that either so that only the USA has 5th gen fighters.

Brilliant.

I am telling building and operating twin engine 5th generation is beyond financial and technical ability of most of the world. so whats the point of lowering the bar with single engine with less performance.

If Russia needs to attack targets outside Russia then the Su-24M2, Su-34 or Tu-22M3 are what you would use. Not an interceptor.

U need Stealth airplane that is fast the can achieve the maximum element of surprize. and PAK-FA full multirole. u should not automatically assume that just Su-24 is upgraded its systems are at Su-34/PAK-FA level. no one put expensive stuff in old airframe.

It is a collective defence agreement. They are bound to support each other in the case of an attack. Turkey didn’t support the US in its invasion of Iraq simply because Iraq never attacked the US.

Again ur assuming too much. Russia has enough economic attraction that prevent any bigger war remote possiblity.

The Su-35 is not operational. It will be integrated into the Su-35. It will probably also be integrated into the Mig-35 as well. The point is that currently it is integrated and operational on only one aircraft type… the Mig-31BM.

It will not be integrated into MIG-35 unless there is export customer. u havent understood the difference between Su-35 and MIG-35 programs. One is new built aircraft and the other is old aircraft with new subsystems.

Some do. A lot just need to be upgraded. Having too few operational airfields makes planning attacks much easier and defence harder.

Few airfields u can provide the required number of personal training, latest airdefence equippment and safety procedures.

Starving people tend to make the most sensible decisions… but what has starving people to do with managers and governments? Aren’t they opposite sides of the same coin?

Starving donot make sensible decisions. they based decision based who ever provide direct hands out without thinking too much.. U need very wealth society to make intellectual decsions.

So how did MIG upgrade those aircraft for Algeria, and Serbia, and make those Mig-29Ks for India or agree with India for the upgrade of existing Indian Mig-29s, or offer the Mig-35 for the Indian MRCA competition?

These are pathetic upgrades. The first serious upgrade is IAF MIG-29 but that will take 3 to 4 years for first aircraft to complete. MIG-29K took 4 years but it is not at Sukhoi standards.

If I buy an expensive car and a really cheap car, if I find the top speeds of both cars is similar, as is fuel economy… should I be surprised that the engines are similar and cost the same?

There is other things like weight(safety, comfort) and aerodynamics beside engines for top speed and fuel economy. Aircrafts are alot more complicated.

According to Russia’s Arms 2004 MotorSich is the manufacturer for the R179-300, VK-21, R-95TM-300, and R125-300 aeroengines.
The R179-300 series is the engine for the Yak-141, the VK-21 is an engine designed for supersonic passenger airliners (11 tons thrust), the R-95TM-300 and the R125-300 are a tiny 360kgf and 380kgf engines weighing 95kgs and 65kgs respectively designed for use with cruise missiles and UAVs.
The Klimov plant is listed as the manufacturer of the VK-2500, and the TV3-117 standard helo engine.

ur still living in 2004.

Seems to me to make MotorSich the weakest link in this case… especially as it is in what is likely to be a NATO country soon enough anyway (they want the Russian Navy out of Sevastopol by 2017… you can’t get much clearer than that…)

Russia will continue to do business with ukraiane whether they join nato or not.
Motorsich is the strongest link. Yak-130 engines are also made with there cooperation.

Only if they follow your growth path. It seems they are not however.
The Russians can’t copy the US’s model for military aircraft design because in the US military aircraft makers were complete entities… they were design bureaus and factories all in one. Soviet Design Bureaus worked with factories but the Design Bureaus have the testing facilities and design talent. By joining the design bureaus with the factories and parts suppliers (engine and radar and weapon makers traditionally) you can create viable Soviet aircraft manufacturers comparable with anything in the west. Some of those companies don’t compete directly so combining those that don’t compete you increase their range of products. For example Beriev is selling a few Be-200 amphibious planes as water bombers and naval patrol aircraft. In the near future they might sell a few A-42 and A-40 albatrosses to the Russian Navy. It is also upgrading the A-50 AWACs aircraft and might even be working on a smaller cheaper model, perhaps for land use, perhaps for the new carriers for the Navy. Yakovlev don’t make float planes and nor do they make AWACs aircraft currently. They make jet trainers and also prop trainers. They also have an interesting range of UAV designs. Joining Yakovlev with Beriev will not cost the Russian AF in competition. If Mig and Sukhoi joined they could offer one fighter between them both and the Russian AF will have no competing design to compare it against… unless Tupolev entered something etc.
More to the point with Yakovlev making money by selling Yak-130s to the Russian AF and probably a few exports as well that money can help improve Yaks products and Berievs. When Beriev gets contracts like for AWACS or Naval amphibious planes like a PS-90A powered Albatross replacing the Mail and the May in the short the medium range patrol aircraft. Perhaps a big four engined stretched version to replace the Tu-142 Bear in the long range patrol role. A four engine Amphibious plane wouldn’t evoke claims in the west about Russian bombers flying all round the place when they are actually Tu-142 MPAs.
The point is that joining companies together carefully you can strengthen them and give them more reliable income streams without reducing competition within the Military Industrial Complex.

Joining companies that have intellectual and industrial capital left to contribute to others. MIG is run by former Irkut managers. how a factory manager is running a design bureau? ever though about that.

And what are Russias options in that regard? Who will sell Russia a 5th gen fighter?

thats why they have too built there own and not waste time and money on old projects.

Have you noticed my spelling of MIG? The aircraft company… the original design Bureau was called MiG. The MIG company today includes factories and other enterprises too.
Now it is part of OAK and OAK don’t want to flush all of Migs work down the toilet. They want to sell Mig-35s abroad and to the Russian AF. They also want to continue work on 5th gen fighters for Russian use and for export.

MIG will join this year to OAK and will mostly be relegated to UAV stuff. have u show me any link for MIG-29 upgrades for Ruaf?

Recycling and reusing is one option. Looking for raw materials in places no one bothered to look before is another.

recycling and reusing with raw materials?

If you can’t defend your tankers then how can you defend your AWACs or ground radar stations… or anything?

AWACS and tankers are better to be far away from battlefield with Meteor/AIM-120D coming up.

Tankers in wars are vulnerable. You can reduce the threat but never eliminate it. Flying your tankers over your airspace protected by your SAMs and your fighters is about as good as you can do.

U can use tankers over the oceans when there is no threat. SAM coverage ranges are increasing.

Wanting lots of tankers means needing more interceptors to escort them. A typhoon firing a Meteor at a tanker from long range doesn’t require an Su-35 to stop it. A Mig-35 with late model BVR AAMs should be able to lock on to and engage the incoming missile. Sending out Su-27BMs to get rid of those Typhoons or Gripens or Rafales makes sense but not every job requires an Su-27BM… just as every job doesn’t require a PAK_FA either, though if that was available and the Su-27BM was available and the Mig-35 was available which fighter types would you send into enemy airspace to take out those enemy fighters and which would you leave to support the tankers?

Su-35 has the range, speed, weopons,sensors to detect and intercept typhoon far before it will become threat to Tankers. MIG-35 is not part of Ruaf. Su-35 contributes towards PAK-FA as it is built in same factory but not MIG.

I’d say having Mig-35s would be rather useful in that case as they can detect and track incoming missiles using EO sensors alone from long range.

u can put bigger EO sensors on Su-35. u havent justified why MIG-35 is necessary?

War isn’t won by the army with the shiniest shoes… and never has and never will.

War is won by shiniest toys provided it is backed up by proper training and correct political and economic policies.

Those that ignore the past will repeat the mistakes of the past.

Past was a mistake so it is better to learn from West who make the most expensive stuff.

Of course it does. The Mig-29 also has a role to play… numbers.

u can built much more Flankers with same amount of money.

Fully agree… no point at all… just like there is no point in integrating any new BVR missiles into bog standard old Su-27s either. Only the upgraded aircraft will get the new missiles and weapons… PAK-FA, Su-27SM, Su-27SM2 (BM/35) and Mig-29SMT2 and Mig-35.

But MIG-29 isnt upgraded in serious manner nor new built untill this point for Ruaf.

A UAV has a role but there is no UAV for that role as yet.

UAVs/UCAVs roles will be greatly expanded against low threat targets. u dont need fighter.

Let me disagree. You reduce an aircraft to its base elements and pile them up by metal and non-metal type and there will not be $60 million dollars worth of material there… I guarantee it.

For single aircraft but u need alot of energy and labor to convert raw materials in meaningful way.

Russia is not in a position to try to use force to protect its interest world wide. Won’t be in that position for a while yet. Aircraft carriers will however be part of that solution… not getting rid of Mig-29s before their time.

Short range MIG-29 with limited sensors is not part of any solution. Aircraft carriers are not part of solution either considering the costs and time to deploy/support.

They know how big the shipyard will be… the shipyards for building carriers are not in Russia anymore. They are building a shipyard to make large crude oil carriers and gas tankers. That is the yard they will make their carriers in and they will be nuclear powered and carry approximately 30 aircraft plus helos each.

u dont build nuclear aircraft carrier for 30 aircraft. considering the cost have sky rocket just recently. I am not even going into steel prices. This whole Naval power theory is going into dustbin. Only Fast moving Stealth bombers, aircraft are the solution. They consume less energy, they are fast to deploy, less personal are required to fly and maintain them, sensors can see further because of height and with Nano technology u dont need big radars or jamming equipment of Battleships either.

One of the articles quite clearly shows a Mig-35 in flight with its EO system on board. In fact go to You Tube and look up Mig-35… in fact do a search on the internet for this filename:
MiG-35-OLS-NIIPP.wmv
It is just over 30MB.

That EO suite can also be put on Su-35. u havent provided any reason why MIG-35 is necessary or has already been ordered?

Pressure from an external rival company… when I first read it I assumed it was the French… wanting to sell Rafale… but then if it is external pressure from a rival company and the country gives in and returns one type and asks for Su planes… it is fairly clear who the external pressure was coming from… …but why? Sukhoi have the Russian AF all sewn up according to you… Su-35s and PAK-FAs are going to replace everything…

u forget Su-34.:)

The reality is that if the USAF can’t afford a big expensive 5th gen fighter then the Russian AF probably can’t either. Smaller cheaper planes make sense. A mixed force is more affordable and allows you to shift your force where you need it without exposing your bare a$$.

The reality is that Russia has smaller population but bigger natural resources with no debt to pay every year from Government budget. so why it cant afford Stealth fighters in greater numbers?

Drain what industrial capability down the road? Mig claim the SMT upgrade reduces operational costs by 40%. The original Su-27 wasn’t cheaper to operate. What makes you think upgraded Su-27s are cheaper to maintain and operate than upgraded Mig-29s?

When u order new engines for MIG-29 than cost goes down but Su-27 ranges are already given on website. It is twice of MIG ranges with less than twice of fuel and longer life engines with better payload flexibility and now there is 2500L tanks also so even more flexibility interms of range.

A single engined 5th gen fighter that is smaller but still stealthy and able to carry more than 4 missiles internally would be perfect for engaging JSF type enemy aircraft.

Why u need to create a separate aircraft to engage JSF?. U create one Best aircraft to engage all the threats.

Agree regarding the Mig-27, but the Su-34 has not been in service the last 18 years, when the Mig-27 could have been available for the role.
The Su-25 is a different matter… it is a tactical fighter that is operated by the Russian Army rather than the Russian AF to directly support Russian Army operations.

Maintain MIG-27 would have required money to operate. They just get rid of it.

Lada vehicles were mostly based on Fiat. Now Mercedes could be made in Russia… if it isn’t already.

I was giving example of Renault that Russia is ready to cooperete with West so to get Shortest, cheapest route to modernaiztion on its own terms. Russia is not prepared to waste money and time on companies like MIG to bring at par with Sukhoi. This is not going to happen.
This is the highest research level interms of semiconductors with possible transfer to Intel the nanotech.

http://www.eetimes.com/news/semi/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=208402746
BERLIN — Intel’s Craig Barrett has signed an agreement with Rosnanotech, Russia’s state nanotechnology organization, for co-development in several areas including sub-45 nanometer ICs.
The agreement was signed at the St. Petersburg International Economic Forum, held June 6 to 8.
The joint research work is in several nanotechnology areas and will include the development of new materials for the production of sub-45nm ICs, according to Rosnanotech. Additionally, Intel and Rosnanotech plan co-research in multiprocessor and multicore systems, as well as in software for modeling nanomaterials. Management training and technology commercialization are also part of the agreement, which also aims to spark Russian startup activity from the research.

To throw everything out would be childish. Improve quality control. Upgrade the manufacturing tools and systems, improve management techniques. A TV that works and can be afforded by most of the population is a rather more important product than the absolute best. The absolute best is obsolete in a month… if you don’t sell it within that month then you have to drop your price and you lose money. There is no gain in being on the bleeding edge of technology.

MIG-29 is redundant. money can be spent on newer better products. Absolute best is not obsolete in a month. infact it is very hard financially/Technically to overcome for otherside. We are not talking about consumer goods where there a several players in same industry. 5th generation fighter is monoply over the others.

Well I’m a Russian Tech fan, but I’m not to impressed with the 35’s Radar, the F-22 can tracka 3^2 target at 240km/149mi while what I’ve read the Zhuk-AE can trach a target note (it doesn’t say 3^2 it just says “fighter size” target) at only 130km/80mi:rolleyes:

In final tests they are saying it will reach 300 to 400KM. which is pretty good for 11.5 ton fighter.

the distance of 300-400 km is real for this radar. Of course even on [BRLS] Zhuk we today ensure the distance 200 km, but in radar with AESA it will be even more. This radar gives to fighter new military characteristics, significantly enlarges its possibilities”, said [Yu].[Guskov].

MIG-35 has following advantages over Euros/F-18E.
1. TVC
2. IRST for both roles.
3. Likely to have Glosnoss guided weopon as Glosnoss is completed next year globally.
4. Much longer range high speed missiles like updated Kh-31 along with Klubir
5 AESA radar with full TOT.
6 Customization of Indian content.

I am also assuming that updated version of R-77 and long range BVR just like Su-35 will also be offered.
So in Weopons it will be top notch. Euros/F-18E has to offer Meteor/AIM-120D.

But down side is It will take India IAF 3 to 4 years to arrive at some conclusion by that time prices would have gone up considerably for kits supplied even if licensing fees are the same. Best solution is that to start production of MIG-35 on Flanker production line at HAL when they are done with Flanker. No need to build separate industrial facility.

Russia doesn’t need surgical strikes. It needs sufficient numbers of fighters to get to points along its border to defend its airspace.

Russia does not need Surgical strikes? from where this assumption comes from.

With NATO the reply will be nukes… that includes most of Russias European area except the ‘stans. Which hardly require stealth fighters.

With smaller nations stealth fighters are not necessary.

only few countries in NATO has Nukes and they are not going to sacrifice themsevlves for smaller countres.

The Mig-29s currently in service weren’t made in the 90s. It makes no sense to continue to operate aircraft that haven’t had an upgrade in 15 years. Especially when upgrades are cheaper than building new aircraft.

??

Except it wont be in service till 2010 and the Mig-31s are getting upgraded now. No point in upgrading the Mig-31s so that they can be retired. The Mig-31s can carry R-37Ms… something the Su-35s can’t do.

Ultra long range BVR is part of Su-35 of weopons. It is right there on Knaapo website.

A Mig-29 airbase will have support equipment and personel to operate Mig-29s. In places where there are a lot of bases that are not far away from each other then it makes sense to have Mig-29s there.

Alot of bases needs closing with personal retired.

So Democracy doesn’t work… every 3-4 years government can be changed…

Democracy works but first country has to be reach for efficient functioning. Starving people cannot make right decisions.

Would suggest that is because it is an Indian upgrade that includes items from foreign countries that needs to be integrated, and is done for minimum profit. For Russian AF it will be all Russian components and an upgrade that has already been tested.

But still u need new engines, Radar, glass cockpit, airframe extension at miniumum. and u cant put MIG-35 engine into old aircraft so the end result is still inferior to new aircraft.

Why better engines? How often will a Mig-29 pull 9gs? With a helmet mounted sight and high off boresight missiles why does it need top manouver capability.

The original idea behind 9g manouver capability was to be able to outmanouver relatively slow tracking missile seekers like the seekers in the Sidewinder. Now that more sophisticated seekers with higher track speeds and of course thrust vectoring such manouvering is for airshows.

Those engines are practically done and it is more than likely there maintaince personal are either retired or left for other jobs.

So the Chinese are prepared to pay a higher price for the RD-33s… but hang on… how many Mig-29s do the Chinese have in service? Work it out.
The extra cost of the RD-33 is because they know they are selling to a country that wants and engine that can be fitted to a non-russian aircraft for sale to third parties. If they were supporting a Chinese purchase of Russian aircraft then they might drop the price, but selling the Chinese a component of a Chinese aircraft they will sell for profit you recognise they need your engine so you charge as much as you think you can get away with.

Than why J-10 engines are same price as FC-1? Chinese can even export J-10 at certain point. It has nothing to with aircraft but production behind engine.

MotorSch make alll the engines for Klimov helis. and it will take time to bring production back.

Klimov don’t make Helos, just engines. What about the TV7-117V series of new generation helo engines at the Omsk based Baranov Motorbuilding Production Association and Chernyshev Moscow Machine Building Enterprise JSC?

so who design VK-2500/VK-800 etc?

Then the Russian aviation industry is dead. All we can hope from them now is upgrades of existing types.

Communist era industry is completely dead. ,

Yeah… the British claimed the end of the manned fighter aircraft more than 40 years ago… SAMs will do it all. Where are the British SAMs now?

British can always piggy pag US. No need for them to maintian a arms Industry.

Sukhoi is not a factory either… it is as dead as MiG.

But Sukhoi people runs factory and can always subcontract work to Sukhoi for design.

What American way? Spend 1.2 billion on every new bomber they make so they are ready for a war that will never come and make them further unable to fight the wars they are involved in right now?

It is there economic system that make things expensive. it has nothing to do with end product.

And when the raw materials run out… or made obsolete?

when Raw materials run out world will stop producing.

No, but if you can refuel once then refuelling twice is not a big concern… even if it was necessary.

Refuelling twice will put tankers in harms way of long range missile of enemy. u want to refuel far away from battlefield.

It is a tool of war, not a fashion parade bimbo.

I guess the T-34 was crap… some of them weren’t even painted!!!

Time has moved on.

The original Al-31 didn’t have a huge lifespan either.

Still much better than RD-33.

The Russian AF has a policy of using foreign components only where they are clearly superior to the available local product. The company that makes the EO component in the Mig-35 also created and made a laser communication system currently used in Americas GPS satellites and many other satellites.

MIG-35 is as expensive as Su-35. so whats the point even considering it.

So the T-54 series tank must be the best in the world… it has been made in the greatest numbers.

Past has no revlance to future.

The program continued for so long for two reasons… firstly the Su-24 was doing the job so a replacement was not actually needed. Second for most of those 15 years there was no money to put it into service anyway.

thats the reason of existence. It has role to play.

The Russian AF wasn’t interested in upgrading the Mig-29 because it already did the job they wanted it for. An SMT upgrade would be nice, but they had no money for lots of new guided air to ground missiles. The only improvement that would have brought would be a wider range of AAMs for some of the aircraft in service. For most, they could already use the R-27T and R-27ET and R-27ER so the SMT upgrade would just add the R-77 to the AAM inventory and they hadn’t accepted the R-77 into service so what was the point?

Except Ruaf will be introducing new BVR missile with Su-27SM/Su-35 and PAK-FA. So no point in going with integration with old MIG-29.

Over a real battlefield such targets will be engaged and probably destroyed in numbers. Unless the enemy is like the Taleban in which case they could certainly use some long range high flying UAVs… except the Russians don’t currently have any. But that really means nothing because Interceptors like Mig-29s are not recon aircraft in the first place.

The flow of money will go towards system what is needed not necessary maintaining current sytem which have no role. UAV certainly has role.

And much easier to deal with. 90% of the cost of a modern fighter is sensors and self defence suite. Put those on a UAV and you make a UAV you can’t afford to lose.

90% of cost of fighters in engines and raw material that are so expensive. electronic components are getting cheaper when u have modern Fabs to build them. UAVs are mostly made from composites.

For the next 20-30 years it is not going to benefit Russia to be bombing countries like the west currently is. Right now it needs to set up a solid base for itself before it starts taking on commitments elsewhere.

Russia needs very high prices of natural resources so if West/Asia got those resources cheaply from those countries it is not in russisa interest. So Russian Mining companies have to be backed up by credible force.

The Mig-1.44/1.42 was not paper. Apart from the US no other country in the world has even gotten that far.

Those doesnot satisfy 21st century requirement.

They are going to be small carriers in the 20-30,000 ton class… there is no way they will carry Flanker or PAK-FA sized aircraft, and carry the projected number they want on board.

It hasnt been decided. and It will be PAK-FA derivative.

I just bought the few month old issues of AFM, Air Int, and Combat Arms and they have articles about the Russian military and both talk about the future of the Mig-29. They mention the incorporation of Mig into another company and talk about Mig-35 based upgrades and Su-35 upgrades tiding the Russian AF over till the entry into service of the PAK-FA and beyond.
They also talk about the procedure to enter Russian AF service as being a three stage thing and that the Mig-31BM upgrade entering its third stage.

It is just talk. the fact that there are three prototypes for Su-35 in one year but no prototype for actual MIG-35 will tell you some thing. They cannot wait for actuall MIG-35 to be flown in 2010 and inducted in 2012. that is India schedule.

The 14 Mig-29SMT aircraft Algeria has rejected are likely to go to the Russian AF.

They have nowhere else to go as there is $250m involved that will get back to Irkut for Flankers.

In Air Int and AFM the Algerians admitted that the decision to return the Mig-29SMTs was internal politics and pressure from an external rival (which remained undisclosed). In Combat Arms, Tom Cooper claims it was inferior workmanship or some such rubbish, but then Tom has always hated the 29.

what ever they say. It does not change the fact they could have increase the MIG-29SMT order and cancelled Flanker.

Which shows that if they are going to continue to use existing fighters with upgrades along with 189 F-22s there must be a reason for it. It can’t be because they are conservative and don’t like to throw stuff away, because quite clearly they do throw stuff away… perhaps it is because 5th generation fighters are so incredibly expensive and not clearly completely necessary that they don’t want to invest in trillions of dollars worth of them just at the moment.

What USAF does is not example for Ruaf. Ruaf have too many strong countries near its borders like China/Japan and Europe is not far way.

Why not compare the Su-35 to an F-16A and say the Su-35 is superior to that as well? The Mig-29 is also fast and the life span of the engines is not important as long as they do their job. Long range sensors is irrelevant in a GCI intercept environment as the interceptor will have its radar not transmitting for most of the intercept anyway. Which exactly longer range weapons are you talking about? Current in service weapons for interceptors are the R-27 series… which are both used by both aircraft. High altitude might be nice for a spy plane, but for an interceptor it has more interest in getting to point x as quickly as possible… not time for sunbathing.
More weapons would be important if more weapons were needed. If the Mig-29 hasn’t hit a target with 2 R-27s and 4 R-73s and 150 cannon shells then having 4 more missiles is not going to mean much.

do job is not enough reason for maintaining some thing which is going to drain Industrial capacity down the road. Every thing has to take into consideration Industrial capacity along with functionality. And Russia is no spending money on current in service weopons.

Mig-29s top speed is Mach 2.35. Interceptors have no business at 36000 ft except against Boeings.

Nope. only MIG-35 with new engines can go that fast with weopons. The rest are just paper specification.

Duh, which makes it ideal… the Russian AF wont want Mig-29s or Su-27s in service in 40 years time… they are interim fighters till the PAK-FA is in service. They will then probably decide if they want only the PAK-FA or if they might want a smaller 5th gen fighter to compliment the PAK-FA in service… and also if a pure interceptor is necessary to replace the Mig-31 or if the PAK-FA could do that job too. Personally a nice swing wing Tu-22M3 sized super cruiseing bomber/interceptor would be nice along the lines of Sukhois S-60. Mach 1.7 supercruise with rotary internal weapons bays for 40 500kg bombs or 40 400km range AAMs with a huge AESA radar in the nose…

There is continous production of Su-34 that has engine commanlity with other Flankers . smaller 5th generation does not make sense. and they are desigining a new bomber.

Most of the targets that need attacking the most are in the enemies immediate rear, very close to the front lines. Su-25s support combat, they are not really strike aircraft, though that was where the Su-25TM was heading. I am talking about the targets the Mig-27s would have hit like forward airfields, HQs, forward assembly areas for troops and armour, supply columns etc etc.

Su-34 can to that with much less passes than Su-25/MIG-27.

You will also notice that the New Russian president visited first Kazakstan and then China. India might be looking to Russia but Russia is also looking south and east more now. It is perhaps sick of getting told how undemocratic it is and told of its poor human rights record…

It has more to do with economics. But Putin drives Mercedes and lada brand has been sold to French. So it means they are not interested in continuing communist era products.

The interim aircraft debate is worth it I think. If the Russian AF clearly only wants the best and have nothing to do with anything that is not the best then at least half the military industrial complex of Russia will fail. It is only a matter of time before Colt start making the next Russian assault rifle.

That industrail base of previous era is already a failure as u cannot raise wages of workers who makes inferior products and if wages are not increased they will leave for private sector. so only the most expensive products will survive.

It will also help us guess what the PAK-FA will be used for. If Star is right then the US ABm system in Europe will be critical, simply because a large powerful radar looking directly into Russian airspace will give them excellent radar data on Russias new stealth fighter before it even enters service. Deploying the PAK-FA and Su-27BM to every Russian Air base will mean the radar aspects of the design will be compromised almost straight away.

ABM system is still few years away and looking into steath fighter does not make aircraft less stealthy. peace time and war time stealth is different.