It is more like license work.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sky_Sword_II
The TC-2’s seeker head is based on Motorola-Raytheon design, initially a competitor to the AIM-120 contract, which was later won by Hughes. CSIST is reported to have purchased 200 TC-2 seeker head “kits” from Raytheon. This led to speculation that the ROCAF would have no more than 200 TC-2’s in its inventory

Only Japan has shown that it can use extensive composites in aerospace structures, AESA radar, LCD displays independtly developed along with inertial navigation system.
and Japan can certianly obtain licesnce or codevelop with far indigenous content with better quality of T-50/LCA class fighter. In production capacity with high end machining/robots they will do better.
the rest are 10 to 20 years behind.

S-400 is a dedicated SAM system with an ATBM capability, the S-500 will be the new high-altitude exoatmospheric ABM/ASAT system.

When u go to S-400 specification page. One missile is 1800KG with 200KM range and other is 250KM but with 2600KG weight. why whould u develop 50% heavy missile just to get 25% more range.
i think here they are misrepresenting the real capability of this missile interms of height.
5th generation and high altitude interception is looks two separate programes. 5th generation is mere addition of AESA to current S-400 with rockets built on new materials. as it is written in promising technology section. The wont discuss that high altitude ABM system on webpage interms of technology used.
It is order of AESA radar for Almaz

http://arms-tass.su/?page=article&aid=55304&cid=145
Beetle -[AE]” is intended to use, also, on other aircraft and ground-based systems. In particular, “synchro-cyclotron” has an order for these radars from the concern PVO (Air Defense) “Diamond- Antaeus”.

OK, you wipe out RSAF.. So what? How does that help to gain control over resources.

u dont get control of resource but u prevent others from using resources against you. Get real. Russia real aim is to get world reserve currency status and to force liquidation on Asian foreign reserves. thats why they started all that StPete exchange. Let EU/Georgia compete with Russia on Market Prices when old Soviet infrastructure is there.

http://en.rian.ru/russia/20080602/109089984.html
Gazprom proposes buying Azerbaijani gas at market prices

You wiped out Afghan AF, too and you still lost the war..

Russians clearly won Afghan war. It discredited Afghan islamic resistence in eyes of Central Asian Muslims and the end the rest of the world (look what NATO is doing. It is spending a decade cleaning its own mess). Russia have still bases in Central Asian countries but Binladen has none.201 Motorized division is rapidly modernized in tajikistan.

Misubishi F-2, CAC J-10, CAC/PAC FC-1/JF-17, HAL LCA, AIDC F-CK-1 A/B as well as C/D (Maybe KAI T-50), from the ones that have flown…

Future we should see some interesting prospects…

Possibly 2 new gen J-XX (CACJ-13?, SAC J-14)
MCA
Mitsubishi ATD-X (But facing budget cuts)

I think u should make the list of Asian aircraft alittle shorter. There is no such thing as purely Asian aircraft or Asian effort. All of the above got extensive and critical help for Outside from Desing consultance to testing to Industrial machinery and offcourse Engines. They are no more Asian than Aircraft built in Siberia just the top management is different.

You think the security of Russia will be guaranteed by a few stealth fighters?

Why not. Everywar does not need nuclear weopons. Stealth fighters have alot Sustain speed (supercrusie with low fuel consumption) and can do surgical strikes.

Russias security in regard to NATO is the SS-18, SS-19, and TOPOL and TOPOL-M.

That only with US. With smaller nations it will be using stealth fighters.

Against anyone and everyone else Flankers Foxhounds and Fulcrums are plenty good enough and will be for the next 20 years if properly upgraded.

Soviet built fighters does not have 20 years life without airframe and engine upgrades.

The Russian AF has different requirements. It needs operational some fighters. It can either give existing fighters a modest upgrade, or it can replace half of its existing aircraft and replace them with new builds to tide them over till the PAK-FA is ready and then build a whole lot more planes that are even more expensive. The tollerances of a 5th gen stealth aircraft suggest to me that most of its construction will not be a guy with a rubber mallet… it will be a guy standing looking at computer screens while a robot does the cutting and assembly.

Russian airforce clearly knows its requirements thats why it is concentrating on Su-27SM/BM/Su-34/PAK-FA. Both in terms of suppliers base/industrial commonality/engine commanality etc. I can assume new built Su-35BM will take the role even from MIG-31 as it has supercruise, long range sensors, better range etc.

Yes, soviet aircraft were built for war not peacetime. However just changing from timetabled replacement of parts to inspection and replacement of parts when they actually need replacing has doubled or tripled the life span of many parts without any actual changes in use… the original lifespans were simply too conservative in the first place.
New built in diagnostic equipment will add to the life span of parts too as will new replacement procedures.

Soviet methods depends on large conscript personal which may not be available so only centeralized maintaince at few places can be done. u cannot spread maintainance personal on hundreds of airbases where aircraft land.

And what is your position exactly within the Sukhoi marketting department?

MIG… which is not MiG anymore BTW, could change its management team every two weeks… it doesn’t matter. The business model they follow from this week to the next is irrelevant as they wont be managing the business for much longer… it will be part of another company soon enough. The issue is the workers and the assets… computers, robots, materials skill. etc.

When u dont have continuity of management. No bonuses, no Experiance workers left, no foreign country training,no updating of production equipment, no continuity with supplier bases etc.

Why on earth do you think that? If the upgrade is properly funded it should take 3-4 years to upgrade 200 odd Mig-29s to SMT level.

so ur upgrading 3 or 4 years to upgrade 200 MIG-29SMT? it isnot gone happen. It will take alteast 5 years to upgrad IAF 60 MIG-29s with already engine agreement in place.

Perhaps you are confusing a properly maintained Russian radar for a Serbian aircraft radar whose replacement parts were sold off in a criminal racket to make someone rich. The Germans didn’t seem to have anything bad to say about the radar of the Mig-29. Just its radius of action was a problem for them because they going a downgraded export model and didn’t bother with any of the upgrades… the T in SMT means fuel BTW.

T in SMT also means more MTOW which needs airframe beefup with better engines.

Evidence?

Evidence is clear with Chinese export contracts. AL-31FM has similar price as RD-33 series 3.

The SMT upgrade reduces maintainence costs of the Mig-29 by up to 40%. The fact that they haven’t chosen to upgrade till now suggests they were prepared to pay increased maintainence costs because they didn’t need the extra performance.

SMT needs new engines.

Why would they transfer all their engine production to a foreign country? Motor Sich is in the Ukraine. If the Ukrainian government gets its way it will be a NATO country too soon enough.

MotorSch make alll the engines for Klimov helis. and it will take time to bring production back.

Over a longer timescale the pervious Sukhoi fighters have been mediocre at best. And their habit of new designations for basically the same aircraft is not something new either. The Su-9 and Su-11 are not that different (and both look like Mig-21s). Su-7 is similar as well and it became an Su-17 and then Su-20 and Su-22 for no apparant reason. The Su-15 and Su-21 differ mostly in their wing planform. Otherwise their better aircraft, the Su-24 and Su-25 are actually good planes and do what they are advertised to do.

Sukhoi fighers are always better than MIG. Su-24/Su25/Su-27 are staying and have role to play. where is MIG-27/MIG-29 role?

Exactly… you have factory managers running design bureaus now… if that isn’t the horses **** leading the way I don’t know what is. What would a factory manager know about anything other than upgrades of existing designs… by your business model the PAK-FA will be the last Russian fighter and all future Russian fighters will be upgrades of in service types and the PAK-FA.

Factory managers all that matters. PAK-FA will be the last man fighter in Russia.

By joining hands with other design bureaus they add depth to their product range. Kamov would add Naval helos for example, Mil would add Army attack and transport helos, Tupolev would add bombers but might also contribute to UAVs and also transport aircraft… Antonov is in the Ukraine and couldn’t join…

Those design bureaus have nothing to offer to Sukhoi.

Mig factories have been upgrading East European Mig-29s and also producing some Mig-29s and upgrading others too. I remember reading that one Mig factory also made a light transport that was being bought. Mig is also making the Skat stealthy UAV too.

Those upgrade are not upto sukhoi standard. and every customer knows that.

So you want Russia to become America… why? And after you shoot down that countries AF what do you intend to do? When in history has a country suddenly been friends with another country and traded with it after that first country had wiped out its airforce? And if you want to say Germany or Japan then you forget the required invasion and reprogramming of the public necessary.

I am not going into further discuss it. If Russia has to successful it will follow American way.

An economy that imports raw materials and processes them into high value, high tech material sounds like Japan when it was economically powerful. A country that exports only raw materials sounds like any third world country being stripped by a foreign colonial power.

u need energy and workers to process raw materials into final product. Which needs global supply chain of parts for export and import. Raw materials country with strong military industrial complex will always have the upper hand on consumer societies like China/Japan.

Of course it benefits most. Its problem is range and inflight refuelling makes range no longer an issue.

so do u think Su-35/Su-34/MIG-29 has the same range with on one inflight refuelling?

Because there is a huge range of technologies in a modern fighter aircraft. Sukhoi is in a good political position merely because the plane they made was bigger. If the MIG design bureau had built the bigger plane then it would be the flanker that you were talking about removing from service. The fact that the Su-27 was bigger than the Mig-29 does not make it better in every way. The Su-35 does not have the EO capabilities of the Mig-35 and would need a targetting pod to engage ground targets with its EO system above its nose it is in the wrong place for ground targets.

The plane was not only bigger but better produced also in parts and manufacturing quality. compare AL-31 with smokey short life RD-33 from 80s? Every thing inside Su-35 surpasses MIG-35 that include IRST. and u can always order French targetting pod just like Ruaf and RMAF has done with Su-MKM.

There is just as much room for growth in the RD-33 as there is in the Al-31.

There is no money to invest in RD-33 to bring it upto AL-31 level.

You make it sound like the RD-33 has been standing still and has not been improved too.

Certainly not produced in numbers and improvements to level of Saturn/Salyut.

Which made it cheaper to make than a more indepth change like the Su-34.

Su-34 has its own role to play thats why the program continued for 15 years. There is no such thing with MIG-29 and Ruaf.

But you said UAVs need fighter escort… so fighters are burning gas and the UAVs they are protecting are burning gas. Why not just send the fighters with a targeting pod to do the job of looking for the enemy? If you have airsuperiority then a plane like a Tu-22M3 with some sort of optics surveillance package in its bomb bay would make much more sense it could loiter for hours and run away if needed. Or an Il-76 AWACs model with added EO sensors in pods under the wings. Powerful radar and jammer and EO capability all in one… or M-17 Myasechev (spelling).

u can buy and maintain much greater number of UAV to maintain 24hr observation over the battlefied. But u need just few fighters in vicinity to protect them from fighters coming after them. Fighters have low loiter time and can only be dispatched in emergency. they dont have to stay 24hrs with UAV. only when radar detects a threat coming after them. AWACS is even more expensive to put every where.

The quality of optics you can put in what is a disposable aircraft like a UAV is limited. A proper manned aircraft could have much better optics and fly much higher than a UAV… except for the really big UAVs but they cost a small fortune.

Not on future UAVs. that will be comparable to fighters in sensors but not in speed, weopon load, high-g maneovering etc. UAV is still cheaper than 4.5 to 5th generation fighters.

If the fighter is better than yours… ie it was a Russian UAV and the Mig-29 was a Russian plane escorting it into Georgian territory and the Georgians only have the Su-25 to intercept, then they would have to use SAMs or simply smoke on the ground to hide targets they don’t want to be seen.

Good UAV can maintain long time coverage over the area and u cannot put smoke for days. Its good observatonal equipment. Only long range SAMs can reach expensive UAV altitudes with there small rcs.

Most radar guided missiles can operate in home on jam modes. Most Russian radar guided SAMs have a TV guided backup mode too. With an autotracker it can be easily effective at high altitudes.

Only S-300 class missile.

How many countries have such weapons. And when was the last time such a weapon was used anywhere near its max range?
Any Russian fighter shot down near its border while trying to intercept a UAV of any nationality over Russian territory could be considered an act of war… exactly which country would risk that?

ur assuming too much that Russia builts only weopons for defence. It is capitalist country and it has interests far away from borders.

No, in Russia there are really only 2-3 companies that could manage a 5th gen fighter… Mig, Sukhoi, and possibly Yakovlev with their Yak-43.
But you want them to have only one… Sukhoi.

Yak/MIG can only draw 5th generation fighter on Paper.

Of course you can… some of the best ground radars the Russians have at the moment are part of the S-300V and S-400 SAM systems. In some terms they are directly comparable to AEGIS radars.

And when they get around to building 6 carriers they will need AEGIS class like cruisers to support such carrier groups.

We are only discussing near future untill 2015 at most. One Those Six carriers only PAK-FA derivative will land. nothing to do with MIG.

Only you say the Mig-29 are not. Show me some reports declaring the Russian AF will get rid of all its Mig-29s in service and in storage and I will start believing what you say.

Show me report that Ruaf has given large order for MIG-29SMT just like Su-27SM?. u have to assume that they are not putting new engines on MIG-29 they will retire with time.

The Mig-21 is actually easy and cheap to operate and maintain. That is why there are a few privately owned Mig-21s. You will never see a privately owned Mig-29 or Su-27 because they are just too expensive to justify.

MIG-29/Su-27 takes alot of fuel and expensive parts and skill personal to maintain but they fly longer than MIG-21 after maintainance.

Su-24 upgrades continue till there are sufficient Su-34s to replace them. Just as I would suggest the Mig-29 and Su-27 will be upgraded and used for the decade or more it will take to get the PAK-FA into service.

But MIG-29 upgrades are not continuing just like Su-24/Su-27SM? show me single report of upgraded MIG-29 entering Ruaf?

There was nothing at all wrong with the Mig-29SMTs delivered to Algeria. Algeria just assumed they were getting new aircraft. The returned aircraft were tested and found to be perfectly fine.

Do u think Algerians are stupid that nothing wrong with MIG-29?

Just flying normal patrols without accelerating to high speed at low level, or pulling high gs is the bread and butter of any fighter aircraft… it should extend the life of the fighter rather than shorten it. The fact that the Mig-29 has only operated as a patrol aircraft around Russia in rather harsher weather extremes than in northern Iraq (when was the last time it was -40 degrees at sea level in Iraq?) suggests there are plenty more flight hours left in the Russian aircraft… unlike the US aircraft, whose wings are falling off.

US aircraft hours are far higher than any other airforce in the wrold by wide magnitude. there is not even a comparsion.

The Su-35 might have faster acceleration but that will just burn more fuel. The point of an interceptor is to intercept. If you try to reduce the number of bases and lengthen the distance the interceptor has to fly then you increase the size of gaps in your defences for enemy to exploit.

The point is Su-35 can do its intended role much better than MIG-29. Su-35 is fast, longer life engines, longer range sensors, longer range weopons, higher altitude, more weopons etc.

Needless to say the Su-27 and Mig-29 have the same top speed but if you make the comparison with missiles, an SA-17 might only reach out to 50km range while an S-400 might reach to 400km. You don’t deploy SA-17s 50km apart… they need an overlap so if you put them 40km apart that gives you better coverage. If you think you can replace those SA-17s with S-400s by putting them 300km apart then you have to keep in mind that if both missiles travelled at the same speed that a target flying directly between two S-400 sites will be 300km from either set of missiles. By the time the missile has travelled out 300km that target might be well past the danger area and at the edge of the engagement zone… especially if it is supercruising.
With the on paper less capable SA-17s the distance to the target is shorter but the distance to the next airbase is also shorter too so the target, unless they are an SR-71 is not going to be as far through the airspace when the interceptor arrives. Equally an SA-17 can be based much closer to the border without creating problems than the S-400 can.

MIG-29 and Su-35 does not have the same top speed. Su-35 is tested with weopons and can reach Mach 2.25 at 36000 feet. MIG-35 will barely rech Mach 2 in clean configuration.

Why do you think the Su-27BM will carry a longer range missile than a Mig-29SMT could carry? Remember the longest range AAM in service in the RuAF is on a Mig, not a Sukhoi.

that is MIG-31 not MIG-29 and it is going to change with Su-35/PAK-FA.

Because the RD-33 is intended for a lighter fighter than the PAK-FA is going to be. Just as the makers of the AL-31 talk about increasing thrust by several tons per engine the makers of the RD-33 talk about future 10 ton and 12 ton thrust models.

They can talk all they want. It is the Salyut/Saturn that will reach with better funding, better and larger quantity production.

But the Mig-29SMT is one of those post Soviet designs that is less maintainence intensive like the Su-27SM

SMT is not even accepted by Ruaf and Su-27SM will already reach two regiments by this year.

Because there are other users of the engine including currently the Russian AF. Don’t you think that while the Al-31 makers have been working on upgrades that the makers of the RD-33 have been working just as hard on their engine?

RD-33 makers didnot have the same kind of funds lik AL-31 and they are 10 years behind.

Figures I have show 3,400km for Su-35 and 2,100km for Mig-29SMT. Whip out the calculator and that shows 2.765 ratio for the Su-35 and 2.61 for the Mig-29SMT… win to the Mig-29 it seems.

Su-35 is 3600KM with higher powered engein.. MIG-29SMT is 1800KM. but MIG-29SMT is only good for half weopons of SU-35. Su-27SM is for 4000KM (better AL-31FM engines).
http://www.migavia.ru/eng/military_e/MiG_29_SMT_e.htm.
MIG-29SMT with 3 drop tanks will reach 3000KM.

Even powerful radars are not used all the time. Giving your position away like that is bad for your life expectancy.

Everything is not used all the time.

4,000 airframe hours = 40 years of flight. for 15 years of operations they just need 1,500 hours left on the clock… and that is without any overhaul at all… and these aircraft have very few hours on the clock… no northern no fly zone to police etc etc.

MIG-29 has only 2500hrs airframe life. 4000hr will need some serious work.

The Mig-31BM doesn’t come into it because it is an interceptor only. It will hardly be used in short range strike missions.

There is no such thing as short range strike missions. Even for Short range strike missions will need Su-25/Su-34 combo depending on target.

If you say so. (No sarcasm there, you know more about it than me, I’m just not seeing it.) The kinds of things that make me wonder is they don’t appear to have an exoatmospheric capability, or even testing such a system, while the US has five such systems in various stages of developement (six if you count MKV), three of them in early deployment. The US has things like SBX, and the THAAD/Mobile X-band radars, and is hooking all that together with space based assets (one report mentions THAAD being able to be cued by satellite ALONE). Add in things like THAAD Block II, NCADE, and so on and it seems to tilt it even more. Is Russia doing ANY work on KKVs? Obviously they could be doing as much missile defense work as the US and somehow hiding it all but the US has poured a LOT of effort into missile defense over the last 20 years or so. Russia doesn’t appear to be working on a 3000 mile range GBI analog, nor a KEI equal, and they certainly aren’t working on a sea-based SM-3 Block II equal. At BEST it seems they are working on a possible THAAD equal for the S-400 system albeit without exoatmospheric capability and maybe something like a land based SM-3 but much bigger because it needs to loft a several hundred pound explosive warhead and it’s exoatmospheric manuevering system. But, like I said, I don’t know what you know.

Russia does not need the amount of tests, funding and work as compared to other nations for similar product. It took Japanese 40 years with latest equipment to reach the same conclusion what Russian did under communist times. nano tech weopons are much beyond in material science thsn

http://www.nanowerk.com/spotlight/spotid=5706.php
A pair of Russian physicists first discovered carbon nanotubes in 1952. However, little attention was given to their discovery, since it was published in the Russian language at the height of the Cold War. It was not until 1991 that these unique structures first gained widespread attention among the world’s scientists, when Sumio Iijima of the NEC Lab imaged them with a high-resolution transmission electron microscope

Pricipally saying weopons to defeat Radiations.(atomic war).

http://www.foresight.org/nanodot/?p=2593
Principally new weapons based on nanotechnology will be designed in Russia within 15 years for combating radiation, chemical and biological terrorism, the chief of the Russian Radiation, Chemical and Biological Defence Troops, Colonel-General Vladimir Fillipov, told ITAR-TASS on Tuesday.

“In the conditions of the increasing threat of radiation, chemical and biological terrorism, specialists of the troops take an active part in the development of systems and complexes for ensuring safety of facilities of state importance,” he said.
“The result of interaction of the troops with research organisations of the Russian Academy of Sciences and the industry has been the creation of a scientific-technological basis that allows looking with cautious optimism at the development of arms and means of radiation, chemical and biologic defence within 15 years,” Filippov said.

He said he pinned hopes on the Programme of Coordination of Work in the Field of Nanotechnology and Nanomaterials that “will allow developing advanced arms and means of radiation, chemical and biological defence at a new qualitative level”.

The Russian AF is in the same boat as the German AF… they have already decided what aircraft they want to move forward with… ie PAK-FA/Typhoon. There is no point in building brand new aircraft for the role of interim fighter if they already have aircraft that can do the job on hand. The have Mig-29s and Su-27s in large enough numbers to operate both for the two decades it will take to get PAK-FA into production and in service in sufficient numbers to cut existing types.

Russian AF is not at same boat as German. Protection of EU like Japan is guaranteed by US. Just look at European investment in US.
Russia has to look after its own Interests and they want the best of fighters. Interim fighter is necessary for preserving Industrial infrastructure along with Supply chian. U need train and experianced workers all the time.
U cannot jump all of sudden to the final product. MIG-29/Su-27 does not have two decades. At most 10 years. They are soviet built aircraft designed for low flying hours.

What other company anywhere around the world provides products or product upgrades to the government for free in peacetime? A companies job is to make money. This new company will be no different.

Sukhoi is government run firm with best designers left. Just look at how many managment changes in MIG in past 10 years alone. they have no continuity nor investment in production process.

By using up the engines they do have they can delay the time they need to buy new engines. Having an extra 400 Mig-29SMTs in service will guarantee extra aircraft are available for extra flight time at less cost than making an extra 400 Su-35s from scratch.

It will take 40 years to upgrade 400 MIG-29SMT. u need new radar with MTBF (not non functioning units of Soviet era), Engine wont survive. why do u think IAF got RD-33 license before MIG-29 upgrade sign up. It is very weak point.

Every type of aircraft needs maintainence and overhauls. Part of the SMT upgrade reduces maintainence costs by introducing onboard diagnostic equipment and replacing some parts with more durable materials.

That reduction in maintainace cost depends on producing new engines and that is costly part. AL-31FM engine has the same price as RD-33 because AL-31 is mass produced on new machinery.

That is very short sighted. Ignoring what you already have and spending money on something new when what you already have can do the job is stupid. If you have a Pentium III computer and all you do is play Solitaire on it then there is no need to upgrade the computer. Many people have more than one computer anyway, but you don’t throw out all your computers and buy all new ones… you buy a new one for the latest games and keep the older computer for the kids to use (wreck).

What u already have needs alot of money to fly along with maintaince cost and it is draining money from other projects.

The Klimov Plant – Federal State Unitary Enterprise in St Petersberg is listed as a manufacturer of the RD-33, the RD-133, the TV3-117, and the VK-2500 engines. The Motor Sich plant of the Ukraine makes R179-300, VK-21, R95TM-300, and R125-300 aeroengines.
Other manufacturers of the RD-33 in Russia include: Chernyshev Moscow Machine Building Enterprise JSC, and Omsk-based Baranov Motor Building Production Association.

Only Chernysev plant can now produce RD-33. The rest are just on paper capability. Helicopter engine will be only produce after 2010. It is all with MotorSch.

With the Russian AF not even considering new Mig-29 like aircraft where is the incentive to improve engines in the Mig-29s weight class?

Incentive to improve came from Exports and buit over 15 years experiance. There is no way Russian AF is going to fund something from the bottom.

They are not engine companies in the accepted sense… they are merely factories that made engines… there is no real competition as they both are working off someone elses product. The makers of Su-27 and Su-27UB make money from making the respective aircraft, but the design is from Sukhoi. What you are saying is that two factories that make these two slightly different flankers have enough expertise and experience to take over from Sukhoi… the company that designed the aircraft those factories merely made based on information supplied by Sukhoi… just because it was those factories that earned money from making those planes for foreign customers.

It is the factories that are in power now. how u explain Sukhoi SSJ at Knaapo and MS-21 at Irkut. why not chose a MIG factory or Illysin factory?
Look at this statment. It is the President of a Factory whose is in charge of project with all the money and is subcontracting design work to Sukhoi for Wing design. It is the factory that has the money not the otherway around.

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2008/05/28/224128/ila-2008-irkut-prepares-to-diversify.html
ILA 2008: Irkut prepares to diversify
Traditionally associated with the production of military aircraft, the Irkut Corporation’s President, Oleg Demchenko, used ILA as a platform to highlight his company’s strategy for diversifying into civil aircraft production.
Irkut is putting out a tender for engine proposals in August, with engine selection scheduled for 2009. The company has already identified suitable engines from Pratt and Whitney and Rolls Royce, though Belchenko hinted strongly that the type would eventually be offered with a choice of Russian or Western engines.

The Sukhoi Design Bureau is expected to provide the composite wing, while Irkut anticipate that the fuselage will incorporate some international participation.
Irkut has received sufficient funding to launch the project, and Belchenko claimed that this was: “the first generously funded programme since the fall of the Soviet Union.”

It makes rather more sense to join design companies and manufacturing companies along the lines in which they used to work together in. Tupolev didn’t make fighters so join them with a fighter company like Mig and you get a company that can still make fighters and bombers. Join Illusion with Yakovlev and Sukhoi, so the Yak component of the new company can work on prop trainers and jet trainers, sukhoi can work on the 5th gen fighters and light strike aircraft and CAS aircraft, and Il can work on transport… there is little overlap and where there might be some at Yak working on fighters they can go over to the sukhoi department and help with any VSTOL designs they might have. The Engine and Radar and Avionics design bureaus can join the companies of the aircraft designers they tend to work with… Klimov = Mig, Saturn/Salyut = Sukhoi etc. This maintains the knowledge base of each company and retains competition because the former competitors are still in seperate companies. There might even be room for some direct competitors to join forces on some projects where the Russian AF benefits most from cooperation rather than competition.

The point is Sukhoi factories along with Salyut/Saturn factories has all the expertize and money to hire the best and outsource the work to suppliers base. They arent interested in joing hands with some one which doesnot bring anything to the table. It is just waste of time and money.

There is an economy of scale but lets not lose our heads. Simply making more does not immediately guarantee it will get cheaper to make each one. Trying to make too many at once will lead to a short heavy cost, while making them too slowly but saving money by reducing the number of factories that are tied up making one aircraft will lead to taking too long to get enough planes into service to make them viable. They need a balance where they are made in reasonable numbers… especially initially when the aircraft itself is largely an unknown.

there are three large Sukhoi factories Knaapo/IAPO/NAPO and it is enough for most of the work. It is these factores along that exported 500 flankers not MiG factores. and it is these factores that are modernized to produce more than 1000 fighters along with upgrades. There is no point in giving money anywhere else to start from scratch.

Besides even if they made 1,000 of them… what on earth are they going to do with 1,000 stealth planes? It would be great at airshows… but what exactly are they going to do with that number of expensive large planes?

1000 Stealth will give Ruaf alot of confidence to deal with alot of countries at same time and they have plenty of business rivals around the world. When any third world country with natural resources try to play hard ball with Russia they can send this stealth planes with impunity and shoot down the whole airforce with no losses.

If they can do the job you need them for then they are not obsolete. You sound so American. If it isn’t state of the art then it is junk and we don’t want it even though it is mostly paid for already.

I think u havent wakeup to new reality. Russia is now even more ruthless capitalist country in policies than US/China combined. It is just the military readiness not there to implement.

Who is going to bother buying Russian stuff if anything less than the best gets no money? How many Mig-29s are there world wide? What happens when the new 5th gen engine is available… what export customer is going to want to buy a 5th generation fighter engine for their Flankers… especially when that engine costs probably 3 times more than the aircraft they bought it for?
Why would India keep Mig29s in service when the Russian AF wont? Why should it bother with Mig-35s… even though they can do the job… if the Russia AF doesn’t want it?

Russia isnt bother by export customers when future product line up is concerned. Even they want to decrease helicopter exports from 2011 after. Hightech machinery are for domestic use only and for Export just raw materials or Civillian stuff. No more high end weopons or charge price for high end weopons that no one can pay.

Letting the US or France sell aircraft to India might be the biggest mistake Russia ever makes… their only alternatives for large sales have traditionally been the Russian AF and the Indians. When the Cold war ended and they were short of money and the west started giving the chinese the cold shoulder regarding military sales the Russians used chinese sales to keep some companies alive. Now you want to destroy those companies because they were supposed to make the small fighter in the large/small fighter competition. Mig gave the Russian AF exactly what it wanted in the Mig-29. When money has been scarce over the last decade and a half and they only had upgrades on existing aircraft to deal in both Mig and Sukhoi have only had their respective aircraft to work with. I would suggest that the Mig-35 is much further advanced than the Su-35. Its all round EO system and air to ground capability is much better even if its max flight range, max payload, and radar aperture are smaller the question is what difference does it make? When was the last time you saw an F-111 with 11 tons of stores on its way to a combat mission? How about the last time you saw an F-16 with 7 tons on its wings?
Never?

Both US/France will lose money in long term selling fighter to India. They dont have any idea what is coming up. There is no doubt Su-35 is better fighter as far as sophisitcation and build quality is concerned.

You talk about a new emphasis on inflight refuelling… surprise surprise… the smaller lighter planes with fewer weapons pylons benefit the most from inflight refuelling… because inflight refuelling extends flight range indefinitely and frees up weapon pylons.

Smaller fighter does not benefit the most. u to refuel them multiple times due smaller internal fuel capacity.

Hypersonic long range weapons sound very expensive. If you look at the weapons shown with the MIG stealthy UAV… Kh-31 and Kh-58 with folding fins. Ironically the Kh-31 flys at 1km per second and Kh-58 is a mach 4 plus missile so they are actually close to hypersonic already.

Weopons shown are for export for smaller fighers/UAVs. What is the weopons tested with Su-34?

MIG doesn’t make avionics, and those pilots are going to need that training either way. They don’t need new engines right away. They could upgrade aircraft in storage and then swap out in service aircraft with upgraded machines. There doesn’t need to be much disruption.

This today report. Why he is not deploying MIG-29?

http://arms-tass.su/?page=article&aid=55533&cid=25
MOSCOW, June 4. (ИТАР-ТАСС). (ITAR-TASS). The Russian air base in Kyrgyzstan Kante added in the near future several new aircraft Su-27, told journalists the Russian air force chief Colonel General Alexander Zelin.
“. “I have decided that the base shortly be reinforced with four training-fighting vehicles from Krasnodar aviation school – he said. – In the near future we will be able to proceed with the preparation of active pilots among youth at the airbase.” По словам главкома, “”. According to glavkoma, “Kante deployed in several aircraft Su-25 and Su-27, training aircraft L-39 and Mi-8 helicopters.” “В скором времени мы ожидаем поступление транспортного самолета Ан-26, нескольких новых самолетов Су-27”, – подчеркнул Зелин. “Soon we expect the flow of transport aircraft An-26, several new aircraft Su-27″ – stressed Zelin

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So spending money on SMT upgrades will also benefit production technologies within MIG.

And whats the benefit for Ruaf in learning by MIG when Sukhoi already got these a decade ago through exports?

The Mig-29 is an interceptor, not a stealth bomber. Half the time it will be in AB to get to an interception point rapidly… which means no smoke.

MIG-29 is equiped with Soviet era engines that are even worse than original AL-31F let alone AL-31FM-1. No point in starting old car.

So they didn’t train in the 1980s? German Mig-29s kept their old engines and even derated them and they worked just fine.

they have agreement of spare engines with MIG.

BTW it is interesting you bemoan the old engines in one breath and then claim the Russian AF can’t afford the SMT upgrade because they would need new model engines… well if the smokey old engines are really that much of a problem they can buy new ones… if they aren’t then they don’t have to.

They need to concentrate on Improving AL-31FM-1 and 117S engine not 1980s era engine. there is no point in wasting time and money to bring it current level when u can go much further with money.

The Su-34 is a deep strike aircraft like the F-111. Like the F-15E is was based on the modified design of the contemporary large fighter of the day.

Su-34 is much indepth modification thats why it has separate factory very differetn nose size, weights and tail sting along with titanium armou plates.
It is not Su-30MK2. F-15E is much closer to F-15C than Su-34 to Su-27SM.

If you need to support UAVs with fighters… why not just use fighters? BTW escorting fighters will not stop MANPADs or BUKs.

Fighters use alot of gas. UAVs are cheaper to operate, much higher loiter time (reaching 24hrs almost). Fly much higher for sustained period, much more stealtiers. UAV is like Satellie observing an area. Fighers can do sead operation to protect UAVs at higher altitude.

In war the rules are looser. Some unidentified aircraft takes off from enemy territory and flys along your coast you splash it… especially if it has a fighter escort.

But if that fighter is better than urs. u will not be able to do anything. and there is chance that shorter life MIG-29 will fall down by itself.

When you can guarantee airsuperiority then they are fine. In the real world however in 10 years time even some of the weakest air defences worth challanging will include high altitude SAMs.

High altitudd SAMS requires radars to target it. Airborne jammers are now very powerful. What do u think about Nanotech? (Much beyond than Silicon).

You don’t need 200km range AAMs to defeat UAVs.

When those UAV are protected by fighers with AIM-120D/Meteor?

There are plenty of aircraft being built in Russia, there is plenty of opportunity for all makers of aircraft to get work and maintain skills while upgrading tools and methods.

You are wrong on this. It is not Soviet era that just every one can design and build aircraft on modern standards.

There are plenty of ground based radars too. Unless you want to go to a war time footing with your aircraft then the extra coverage gained by your fighters will be not very effective. For a start more than 90% will be on the ground at any one time and of those that are airborne most will spend most of their time taking off and flying from one point to another with their radars pointed in useless directions… or simply turned off.

u cannot take ur ground based radars to Africa/Middleast or in International waters. u need very powerful fighter radars to do the work indenpendtly in offensive operations. Why MIG-31BM /Su-34/Su-27SM are part of upgrade but not MIG-29?

Yeah… just like the era of the aircraft is gone now that we have SAM missiles, and the era of the tank is over now that we have ATGMs…

The thing is that Mig-21s are still in service around the world… and currently in greater numbers than Stealth aircraft… strangely enough.

those MIG-21 are of no use for the kind of rival Russia is going to face. Flying MIG-21 is better for scrap yard rather than overhaling engine every 100 hours.

Flight simulators can retain pilots skills without using engines…

to a certain extent.

And when the SU-27BM turns out to be good enough to do the job is it possible that PAK-FA numbers might be reduced because they are really not needed? The German government was thinking about that when they retired their Mig-29s before they retired their F-4s.

Nope. Su-27BM production will be stoped at the factory when PAK-FA production starts just as there is no new Su-24 built up when Su-34 started. Germany is not Russia. they dont have settled scores with anyone.

Neither Flanker lines, nor MIG lines have been closed. MIG was delivering Mig-29SMTs to Algeria on time. Algeria just decided it wanted new aircraft as the basis.

they were bad quality with high price. Whats the point of buying SMT when 15 years later ur going to dispose off. New Flankers have 40 years life with less overhaul.

A mig-29 can fly and land safely with one engine shut down. Until they need to be replaced there is no need to replace them. The Russian AF has plenty of Jet trainer aircraft available now and soon to come on line some new models.

MIG-29 cannot go further with fuel.

BS. F-15s and F-16s are babied during peacetime… no high g flight, no supersonics at low level. The Russians have planes in storage… in storage… not scrapped… in storage. It is completely not the same thing. The Russians didn’t put things in storage so they could be scrapped and replaced by completely different aircraft. If they were going to be scrapped they could be left in open storage and scavenged for parts. They weren’t.
They still have hundreds of Mig-29s in service… they cannot make Su-35s fast enough to replace all those Migs and even if they could… the cost of the upgrade plus the changing of all the equipment at the mig 29 bases to operate flankers, plus retraining maintainence and pilots for the new aircraft will actually cost rather more than upgrading to SMT Migs.

F-15/F-16 were constantly flying maintaing no fly zone over Irak and have plenty of exercises from red Flag to various countries. how many Times Ruaf has done on similar scale with MIG-29? Even IAF only Mirage 2000/Su-30 went on foregin visits. I want to See MIG-29 going abroad. Time has changed they arent interested in MIG-29.

Unless you put 4 planes per airfield in Europe a couple of hundred of each type is a joke. One of the main reasons for dumping our Skyhawks was that they had two bases… one at Ohakea in NZ and one in Australia. If someone hijacked an aircraft at Dunedin airport and flew it into the Clutha dam they Skyhawks could do very little about it. Even if they were on standby 24/7 which would use up all their budget BTW, and flew down here the instant it happened they couldn’t get to an intercept point before impact… and suddenly NZ loses 30 odd % of its power generation.
You don’t save money by having fewer aircraft that have longer range and covering more area if that means they can’t do the job.

Why they canot do the job? Su-35 has faster acceleration. So it wil respond faster to any event. it will need less bases so less money to spend. it will have longer range missile. so shoot from far away. not to mention better long range sensors with more powerful EW suite. there is no point in medium size fighter in todays world.

First of all there are more Mig-29 operators than there are JSF operators. Second I am not suggesting that they keep the Mig-29 forever… they have it and an upgrade of what they have is cheaper than throwing it away and buying all new stuff that is only slightly better but much more expensive.

Who operates MIG-29 around the World is irrelevant to decision making of Ruaf. why not Ruaf announce MIG-35 purchase? just like Sukhoi PAK-FA? JSF operators countries are in different financial status than MIG-29 operators.

The Russian AF has decided on its future fighter.. the PAK-FA. It doesn’t need an interim fighter that will last in service for 40 years. It is an interim fighter… you are expecting it to be better than PAK-FA… :rolleyes:

I didnot say that interim fighter is better than PAK-FA. Interim fighter is necessary to certain extent for PAK-FA. why do u think they are using 117S engines on PAK-FA but not RD-33?

No, you don’t understand. Currently there are Mig-29 bases and Su-27 bases. If you are going to withdraw the Mig-29 then you need to retrain all those that operate the Mig-29 to use new (to them) aircraft. The Mig-29 and Mig-29SMT are basically the same aircraft, slightly upgraded. The Mig-29 and the Su-27BM are completely different aircraft… completely… different radars, different engines etc etc… even the IRST is different.

MIG-29 bases will be gradually withdrawn as more upgraded Flankers available. Newer fighters will be less maintaince intensive than Soviet era fighers.

So you compare the upgraded engine to the unupgraded engine… congrats… more evidence that UPGRADEs are the way forward.

Those upgrades are already paid for and those upgrades are necessary for fifth generation engines. How can u produce AL-31FM-3 when there is no AL-31-FM-1? there is no future for RD-33 as far as fifth generation funding is concerned. so why bother with upgrades.

The question I am asking you is why do you think an upgraded Flanker is that much better than an upgraded Fulcrum. The military districts in European Russia are so small that an upgraded fulcrum doesn’t need the range of a Flanker otherwise it will find itself out of its area. All that extra range is wasted when you need to concentrate your forces to meet threats of more than one or two enemy aircraft. If you need 100 aircraft in one area because it could be a main line of advance for NATO then having planes with 2000km flight radius makes no sense… unless you want them to fly to Iran when NATO attacks.

Because upraded Flanker has better equiped Factories behind it and most of upgrades are already paid off through exports. there will be no IRBIS without BARS. and certianly Flanker is much better fighter than Fulcrum in all respects. 9.4ton fuel will give u 3600KM range but 5500KG SMT is only good for 2000KM.

Those Mig-29s will be operating with ground radar and AWACs and for most of the time will have their radars turned off or in listen mode.

AWACS cannot be every where. and more poweful radars in fighters are difficult to jam.

They have kept them operating till now. I think they could manage to keep them operating for another 15 years with proper spares support.

they were in storage untill recently. they cannot operate for 15 years when u actually fly them with decent flight hours.

The Mig-31 doesn’t come into it. They will use the Su-27SM and Su-27BM and the Mig-29 till the PAK-FA is sufficient in numbers… because that is what they are doing… unless they replace the Mig-29 with Su-27BM… which would be a huge waste of money.

MIG-31BM upgrades is part of there budget so why doesnt it come into it? and they are developing ultralong range Project 810 missile for PAK-FA. So there is role for that capability in future. Waste of money is operating obsolete fighter like MIG-29 just like MIG-21 in certain countries.