star49And the author knows his figures from sources like this one.
Airlines in the world know real life figures.
Airline operate A340.
World Airlines also get good leases/payment schedules to get A-340 which Russian banks simply cannot compete untill recently. Similar is production rates at factory. It has practically nothing to do with end product comparision. Cash basis economy only IL-96 willl succeed in long term.
star49Is the OAK the Russian AF? Brand new aircraft come out of the AFs budget and will cost more than even the most expensive SMT upgrade.
Russian airforce has to deal with combined entity OAK. It cannot buy a single aircraft without OAK. SMT upgrade does not provide the service life, range, Sensors power that Ruaf needs in acceptable quantity.
So why did you use it as an example showing MIG can’t deliver upgraded aircraft on time? MIG doesn’t design BVR missiles.
Because MIG has to wait for Government money to finish MIG-31BM project in 10 years but Sukhoi delivered Su-27SM already developed with new engines, FBW, IRST, cockpit upgrades without single money from Ruaf and that was 4 years ago. Similar is Su-24 upgrades. u cannot have a industrial entity soley depended on government.
The top SMT upgrade is not necessary, and the engines don’t need to all be replaced.
Engine does not need replacement? so how the aircraft fly especially if they want to increase the flight hours of Pilots closer to Nato standard. u cannot have untrained pilots and aircraft all the time in workshop for overhauls.
So what? Why do you think the Russian AF needs to afford the extra expense of having all the best when good enough is good enough?
For that good enough they have still spend money which can be better spent some where else and that is going to obsolete faster than Flanker upgrades.
Yeah, but the problem there is that there are dozens of manufacturers that make RD-33s like Klimov plant that you don’t want to shut down because they also make the old engines for the Mi-8/-14/-17 etc Hips and Mi-24 Hinds, but also the new engines for the Havoc, Hokum, and upgraded Hinds.
Klimov design helicopter and RD-33 engines but it does not make them. Chem plant and MotorSch of Ukraine makes engine for them. and in budget they put money to transfer helicopter engines to Russia. Now where is the scale of investment there for RD engines.
Development of the AL series engines is the Lyulka Research and technology centre, while Salyut, Saturn, and Ufa build the engines.
Salut has independed design bureau having there own upgrades. thats why AL-31FM-1/2/3 are different 117S from Saturn.
You can’t just say you will save money by making one less engine… lots of companies make them and make other engine types as well. Dropping one engine will just make them rely on fewer income sources… making them more fragile rather than stronger.
There is stronger engine firms like Saturn/Salyut for fighter engines. Two are good enough. Even in US they have two major suppliers.
They certainly could but why would they do that? It would have to be a provocation… either a NATO provocation, or the Russian provocation of replacing old Mig-29s with PAK-FAs then they might feel obliged to counter with JSFs.
By putting Mig-29SMTs out to patrol borders with NATO countries Russia will be sending a message. If NATO chooses to deploy JSFs to Russias borders anyway… well then you can realise who they think is the enemy and ramp up PAK-FA production.
PAK-FA needs to build in certain quantities to make it affordable for the Plant and it is alrady on Sukhoi webpage. U cannot take resources from that try to maintian 400 obsolete fighters.
There are half a dozen factories in Russia that build some from of jet or turbine engine. Funding only one of those will lead to the skilled workers in the other factories going to other better paid jobs making cars or whatever.
Saturn/Salyut/Perm/Klimov are the major and each have its own speciallity. why u think Klimov not invited to 5th generation engine?
there are a lot of modern guided missiles the Russians need to put into widespread service before they start looking at weapons like BrahMos. Odds are they are unlikely to be hunting and killing ships in the next 20 years, so tactical missiles like the Kh-25 (AS-10/AS-7/AS-12) and Kh-29 (AS-14) and Kh-31 (AS-17) and Kh-59 (AS-13 and AS-18) and Kh-58 (AS-11) series make much more sense.
odds are they they are looking it hypersonic class missiles with much extended ranges along with Glosnoss guided bombs. Most of PGMs what u mentioned will retired.
How many planes currently fly the worlds skies with AESA? If it is so cheap and easy… where are the South Korean AESAs, the Chinese AESAs, the Japanese AESAs, the European AESAs, the Russian AESAs in service?
It has more to do with technical ability and cooling requirements and making small AESA does not make a difference. How do u think Sweden/Israel could afford AESA radars 15 years ago when there economies were tiny.
The original Fulcrum was not. The SMT can do most things the Su-34 can within the parameters of CAS, and is a much cheaper and more widely available asset for the role. There are plenty of targets that will require much more plane than the SMT and for those jobs you use the 34.
You don’t use a Rolls Royce to pull a plow in a farmers field.
SMT and Frogfoot are workhorses… tractors.
SMT upgrades need new engines, airframe extension, avionics for ground hitting and new pilot training on cockpit procedures. It aint cheap and it will take time for MIG to ramp up production.
So the money has been spent and Irkut is Airbus certified…
I just mentioning that they had money before thats why they are ahead in production technologies along with worker pay.
Why is engine smoke an issue? In a war zone who is going to notice some more smoke?
In real combat neither aircraft nor engines will last long anyway. In peace time the free things that are already paid for will be cheaper than the brand new things that haven’t been paid for yet.
why do u think all new engines with aircraft design put premium on reducing its signature and u need flight hours for proficient training. 1980s era RD-33 engines are not going to allow it. u will lose pilots any way.
Extra avionics and extra fuel and extra crewman. The SU-34 is no more a replacement for the Su-25 than the F-15E is a replacement for the A-10.
Russian claim that Su-34 is far better suited for its role than anyother aircraft for its role and role is properly defined. F-15E is Su-30MK2 not Su-34.
Those little slow Israeli UAVs the Georgians are using work out at $12 million dollars each. They have already lost about 7 with little to show for it.
When those UAVs are supported by Fighters its alot harder to get close enough on them and fire short range missiles. u need long range sensors to find UAVs at greater ranges and use BVR in actual war. Not wasting Gas and aircraft to get close enough to each and every UAV flying around.
So UAVs don’t mean you don’t need an airforce to protect them… so why bother with UAVs? Why not use what the Russian Army and Airforce would normally use… satellites. The SMT is not a surveillance plane so UAVs are hardly going to replace SMTs.
UAVs are eyes in the sky with much longer loiter time, higher altitude and lower cost than Twin engines fighter or AWACS. and these need to be protected in actual war. u cannot assume that u will go after them with short range missiles or a gun. MIG-31 role is also now hitting UAVs.
But why? What is the point of having an Su-27BM flying over Moscow tracking targets taking off from Heathrow airport?
Because Sukhoi can built Su-27BM now with modern industrial machinery. U just cant wait highly Skilled wokers lying around wasting time and lose there skills for a decade untill PAK-FA enters production. U need constant work for factory for its long term future.
Besides most modern fighters will spend more time listening with their radars than transmitting anyway… it makes no sense having every fighter with an AWACs size radar in its nose. It would be too expensive for a start. And second when they used that radar and give the enemy precise fixes on their location setting up traps becomes possible. If instead you take the work the PVO did with Su-30s using their radar and delegating targets to other fighters flying with it then you can have a large force with one Su-27BM flying with 4-6 Mig-29SMTs with the latter carrying a full load of R-77Ms or R-77PUs with the Su-27BM using its radar to detect targets and passing target data to the Migs which can accelerate and climb and launch their missiles with an optimum initial speed and height based on data from the Su-27BM. Unless the target turns on its radar it will detect the Su-27BM and a lock but when the R-77s g active they might assume a long range shot from medium height and moderate speed when it was actually only a medium range shot but at high speed and high altitude… the missile having much more energy than the target thinks.
And u cannot have AWACS every where and fighter radars give more powerful beam on narrow area to shoot down low rcs targets. both in air and ground. why do u think there is Ultra SAR mode in new radars?
there is reason for powerful sensors for air to air and air to ground role. The era of MIG-21 size fighters is long gone.
With inflight refuelling the Tu-22M3 could carry a full compliment of 3 Kh-22M missiles… the current upgraded models of which have been offered for high altitude research with speeds of mach 4.6 and very high operational altitudes.
Provided u can maintain operation readiness, pilot traing like Su-34 with Tu-22M3. u simply cannot compare the engine built now to what have been built 20 years ago.
Which means taking skilled workers away from making the PAK-FA just to make some Su-27BMs brand new while there are hundreds of Mig-29s, Mig-31s and Su-27s in storage makes even less sense. An upgrade is less work than a scratch build.
Offcoures it makes less sense to build Su-27BM now because if u dont built that u will not be able to built PAK-FA in 10 years in sufficient quantity and ultimately the obsolete fighters will crash down because of old airframes/engines. why do u think it needs so many billions and new worker training just to start production of Civillian airline in Russia because old workers has retired and plants are not modernized and this take alot of investment and time.
For upgrades the Russian AF can pick and choose what needs to be upgraded and what does not. The Mil Std digital data bus needs to be incorporated, and new LCD screens in the cockpits, but the engines can actually be left. The radar can be tweaked to allow the use of R-77 missiles and a few air to ground weapons and a weapons pod like SAPSAN can be used for other guided air to ground ordinance.
Engines can be left out? u want those MIG-29 to become IAF MIG-21 crashing on Pilots with no hope of training.?
Well the JSF and F-22 are practically in service yet the F-15 and F-16 are not being withdrawn from service… and wont be for decades. It will take time to build up numbers of F-35s and even then there will be units in some backwater that still use F-16s for a decade or more to come.
u have to understand this F-15/F-16 have better service life than Soviet built fighters. and were in production throught out the 90s.
IF Ruaf wants training on the same level. MIG-29 will be long retired.
What you are suggesting is that the Su-27BM is the JSF and the PAK-FA is the F-22 and so Russia can dump all its F-15s, F-16s, and F-18s right now. Any shortfall in the numbers of planes airworthy can be made up by making more Su27BMs.
I am not saying Su-27BM is JSF but there is real industrial/commerical reasons behind it.
What I am telling you is that production of Su-27BMs with the high price of metal and shortage of aircraft makers is not going to be that great. Most Su-27BMs will be upgraded Su-27s. The PAK-FA will not flow from the factory floors in their hundreds or thousands.
U dont need thousands. u need couple of hundreds of each. and factory is already upgraded to do the work which is not case with MIG.
There will be less than 400 PAK-FAs. The Su-27BMs might number 400 as a final total. In my opinion the Mig-29SMTs might end up numbering 4-500, and the Mig-31BMs might number 2-300 and might get a really powerful AESA radar.
ur assuming to much into the future. PAK-FA will be in production for 30 to 40 years just like JSF. MIG-29SMT does not have futre except for token numbers for export purposes.
Currently there is a lot of cash there, but there is an enormous number of things that need money. They need to completely overhaul their logistics… trucks, planes, etc. They need to upgrade and improve in many many areas and they are going to use that money up very quickly.
The things that make the west suffer with high fuel prices will make Russia suffer for exactly the same reasons. Inflation… transport costs increase the costs of everything. This is just as bad for Russia as it is for the west.
thats why they need highly efficient engines of 4000hr than 400hrs MIG-29 and spending workers time on overhaulds all the time.
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Having 5th gen fighter planes when you still use foreign jet trainers like the L-39… which was a good solid design… in the 70s is a little strange don’t you think?
they orgainzing YAK-130 production at higher scale.
The money has been spent. They are deployed to bases. The ground crews are trained to service them, the pilots trained to fly them. If you want to introduce Flankers and PAK-FAs everywhere then those crews and support teams have to learn the new aircraft anyway. Why not make that new aircraft cheaper Mig-29SMTs that will upset neighbours less and cost less so money can be put into housing and a slight increase in wages and pensions?
PAK-FA/Flanker crew will travel with them. No need to train MIG-29 crew with them.
The Su-27SMs are upgraded existing aircraft. They already have roles and bases. Making them cover twice or four times the area would be too much. Mig-31s already have a role and are performing it. It makes no sense to demobilise a Mig-29 unit and replace it with a Mig-31 unit, or have a nearby Mig-31 unit take its role.
Su-27SM uses 3000 hrs engine rather than 400 hrs of MIG-29. MIG-31 missile and radar range has been increased so it can take role over greater area.
The Mig-29 does not need the RD-33 series 3 engines. They have hundreds of planes in storage… they could cannibalise engines to keep the existing engines running for 10 years without any new parts. Buying a few new engines would give work to a factory that could do with the income.
It does not work that way. Even if u put engines from cannablized MIG-29. it will be used up in 3 to 4 years. or need constant overhauling. so whats the point.
The Germans kept the F-4 Phantom in service right up until they started receiving Typhoons.
and Russia is going to use Su-27SM/MIG-31 untill PAK-FA comes in sufficient numbers.
star49It has taken so long because not enough money has been allocated to the program. Do you think that now they will suddenly find hundreds of millions of dollars to only buy all new aircraft when with a simple and relatively cheap upgrade their existing aircraft in storage could do almost as good a job?
I think they have found the money. Just look at OAK Civilian budget and that new testing complex near moscow.
The Mig-31 upgrade has taken this long because the original Mig-31s can still do the job they were designed for… not much has changed. With upgrades it will be able to do a better job of the job it does now. With the Mig-29 however it is different in that currently the Mig-29s are point defence fighters. With an SMT upgrade they will be able to better intercept targets, but also engage a much wider range of ground targets.
MIG-31 upgrade took so long because money in required amount was not available untill recently and there was new BVR missile.
There has been no need to give either a huge upgrade because to benefit from the upgrade they need to be able to use the new weapons that extend their capability… ie R-37Ms are still being developed, and R-77s and other guided weapons the Mig-29SMT can carry are not widely in service with the Russian AF.
Ruaf commander has said that more than 200KM range BVR is already operational with first two MIG-31BM. and MIG-29SMT is not cheap upgrade. Atleast $15 to $20m each. First u have to put Series 3 RD-33 engines for SMT so life can be extended for 10 to 15 year with decreasing operating costs. But still interms of engines it will be behind AL-31FM-1 equiped Su-27SM/Su-34. 117S is in different league. and there is production issue. Salyut and Saturn both are well funded for speedy and continous supply of engines and spares. and Only those firms are participating in fifth generation engine development. Its better to give more contracts to them
Very few EU countries can afford to buy JSFs and even if they could the vast majority of East European fighters and other aircraft types will not be stealthy at all. If you deploy PAK-FAs and Su-27BMs all over European Russia you are more likely to find JSFs and even F-22s deployed in Europe… that is another reason to not escalate the situation by getting rid of the Mig-29s.
JSF can be transferred from richer EU countries to poor countries for forward deployment in time of war. So u have to take into account combine threat.
The Il-76 is a very useful aircraft.
Thats not the reason of transferring IL-76 production. They want to produce 4th generation IL-476 with better fuel consumption, longer life, greater production rates and parts supplier closer to manufacturing base. To achieve all that u need billions in investment along with skilled workers with high pay scales on modern production techniques along with workers to maintain and support that advance machinery inside the Plant. u cannot do that in far way thirdworld country. Producing aircraft on Western standards is whole different game. u cannot afford lose workers to other industries like Auto/Fabs etc.
Range is a factor… it is just not the main factor.
U can put Brahmos class weopons with extended range beyond MTCR into Su-34. It is the first aircraft integrated with Glosnass guided weopons. So development is far ahead than any other Strike fighter in the moment.
Flanker Engine sales mean little to Sukhoi… it is Saturn that makes the Al-31 series, not Sukhoi. Equally the MIG company includes more than the MiG design bureau and they have been making and selling aircraft too, and upgrading their equipment too. If they hadn’t moved on in 15 years there is no way the Mig-35 would have an AESA.
Sukhoi sold just Su-27SK license for $2.5B in 1996 to Chinese and another $3.3B license to Indians. I am not even going into direct supply, Kits and
spares contracts. $1.5B from Venzuela. $2.5B from Algeria. $1.4B from Malaysia. $2B for Sukhoi SSJ.
ww.knaapo.ru. France/Switzerland/Germany/US equipment are working there to produce new jets and upgrade SU-27SM. AESA is very cheap product. It is back end of Zhuk-ME with T/R modules from http://www.micran.ru
The past has shown that a Flanker is vulnerable when flying slow and low in roles it wasn’t designed for. The past has shown that when one plane can do various roles it is often the Army that miss out because all their CAS aircraft are patrolling airspace on air superiority roles instead of hitting ground targets to pave the way for Army ground advances.
Fulcrum is also not designed for CAS role. Fullback is different.
Who told you that? The Mig-31 upgrade program would be quicker if it was funded to be quicker. Give someone half the money and they will do half the job. MIG sells brand new planes like the Mig-29M2 or Mig-35 and they sell upgrades of existing aircraft like the Mig-29SMT. The Fact that Algeria agreed to buy upgrades and was shocked that the upgrades were applied to existing aircraft rather than new builds says more about Algeria than about MIG.
When u compare Su-30MKA with build quality that has passed rigours testing of various countries with MIG-29SMT. Just to make Irkut Airbus certified $200m was spent.
Just engine smoke is big issue and that is only solved in RD-33MK which u cant put on SMT. there is no point in wasting pilot training and ground support on inferior product.
They couldn’t afford to have all Sukhois and have enough aircraft. Besides that means they have no use for hundreds of Mig-29s in storage… what a waste of perfectly good aircraft.
And what about wasting fuel and putting obsolete engines with shorter life to make aircraft airborne.
Sorry, but I can’t see it doing anything other than long range strike. That is what it was designed for, and what it will be good at. I doubt it will be any good at all at CAS… for the same reason the F16 was no good at replacing the A-10… they even called it the A-16… but guess what? The fact is that a high supersonic fighter bomber is an airforce ship and is no use near the front line working with army units.
So why do u think Su-34 is 12 tons heavier than Su-35?
Really? Tell that to the pilot of the Mig-29 that recently flew right up to a Georgian UAV and shot it down as easy as anything.
But it does not mean u spend further money.
The UAV had no chaff, no flares, no active jammer, no ESM or ECM suite like the Mig-29SMT does.
When UAV at high altitude is protected by another country airforce. It is different game.
Some targets can be engaged with long range missiles, but if JSF gets deployed to eastern europe one of the features of Stealth is to reduce the detection range of enemy radars. Your 400km range missile might not get a lock at all at any range. Not even target is an expensive stealthy one.
That u have to loodat what kind of radars are developed in next 10 years. 400KM radar is for export. domestic will be far higher in performance.
A chain of support needs to exist in those areas for fighter aircraft… if it is already in place then it really doesn’t matter if it is the same or different from the planes used in other airbases.
When they change greater part of armed forces to professional and keep wages rising just so that people dont leave to private sector. There is will be menpower issue.
Yet they keep two different types of strategic bomber, one long range theatre bomber, currently have 3 different types of fighters and are currently introducing another (assuming you don’t count Su-30s, and Su-33s as different types too). Not to mention all the different types of other aircraft they have in service.
Ideally they would want to retire Tu-22 and concentrate on blackjack now but since Su-34 production is slow in the beginning. they will keep it for while.
Throwing away in service aircraft simply because there are no workers in the industry is a joke. The Mig-29s in service and in storage are already made. They need an upgrade, they don’t need to be built from scratch…
If production really is such a problem then using what they already have instead of starting afresh with what are basically all new aircraft like the Su-27BM and PAK-FA is a much dumber move than it looked before.
I am not going to economic discussion. they have huge problem with menpower. Just because there other opportunties in IT/mining/Autos for skilled workers.
For upgrades u need new engines and for new engines u need to buy materials. and the end engine is inferior to what is produced in other factories and in much greater quantity and much faster upgrades at Sukhoi Plants. Just look at Perm/Salyut that are way more prosperous than Chems RD-33 engines plant and they have great difficulty in fullfilling order due to metal prices.
http://www.salut.ru
According to the director joint stock company “Perm’ motor plant” of Mikhail [Dicheskul], profitabilities of the production of aircraft engine it in 2007 composed only 3-6%. “Thus, at sale of new aircraft engine enterprise to earn money for coating of administrative expenditures and to obtain profit practically does not can”, stated director. Last year cost completion for the serially produced engines PS -90[f] for the transport aircraft Il-76 increased 1,2-1,7. This increase suppliers explain by a price hike of metal on the World Market. However, when world prices fall, suppliers selling prices do not change. “In the prime cost of the production of the aircraft engines of family PS -90[a] suppliers “eat” to 70-75%, but within the framework this price simply it cannot be existed, and state is simply obligated to regulate prices”, conclusions Mikhail [Dicheskul].In the federal antimonopolistic service (FRONT) with the requirement to conduct checking the observance of the anti-monopoly legislation by metallurgical companies, after taking the measures provided by law, turned themselves oil-industry workers – head “[Surgutneftegaza]” Vladimir Bogdanov, company “To [gazpromneft]” and the development fund of tube industry. They call to increase export duties to the metal. Now to them was joined the association of the autos-producer of Russia, which accused the producers of steel of the [kartelnom] agreement.
To 95% of produced in Russia metal, necessary in the aviation and the missile construction, it goes abroad. Rest is sold inside the country on the world prices. According to the director general [FGUP] Yuri [Eliseev]’s “salute”, “this is simple diversion, it would seem, innocent, hidden after the mechanisms of market, but directed toward that in order to completely ” place” production”. It considers that “is necessary the adoption of urgent measures from the side of government for the coordination of price policy with the fulfillment of [goszakaza] and export deliveries”.
The conflict of interests of [oboronshchikov] and metallurgists it would be possible to solve, pinching either those or others. It suffices to inject the mechanism of the real indexing of the expenditures of [oboronshchikov] for raw material.
Not even the USAF can afford all F-22s. They need a cheaper mass produced aircraft to make up stealth numbers and until they get them the F-15 will be in service much longer than you might think.
F-15 cannot be much longer. Its airframe life will end. and JSF is as expensive as F-22.
They will have stealth aircraft or Soviet Era built aircraft as a choice. I very much doubt they could afford an all stealth aircraft airforce… right now no one else can.
Russia is far richer country than any in other in the world.
Wealth of country directly depends on natural resources exploitation in efficient manner. Country with no debt payments or interest payments to any one.
Putting them into storage doesn’t mean digging a hole and throwing them down it and covering it with dirt. Every month each aircraft will be taken out and the engines run up and tested… the Russian AF invested a lot of money on those planes… it will be wanting some sort of return on them.
They are soviet era planes built in 80s. Spending money on fuel, material, training, ground support is waste of manpower and resources.
Then I guess the Russian Army will be dropping the Su-25SM upgrade and going back to the much better Su-25TM option?
Su-25/Su-24/Tu-22 has still role to play untill several regiments of Su-34 are properly equiped with full training, new PGMs etc. On other hand u already have Su-27SM and MIG-31 (engine common with IL-76) to take role of MIG-29.
Good enough is the worst enemy of the best. Mig-29SMTs are good enough to do the job, even if an all PAK-FA/Su-35 fleet might look better on paper… for the next 10 years even if all the in service Su-27s get either an SM or BM upgrade the Mig-29s currently in service will be needing upgrades too because there is no way they are going to have any PAK-FAs into service within that time to replace them… are you going to just withdraw the Mig-29s which would leave a gap of 400 aircraft short of what you have right now… pretty hard on the remaining sukhois… or you could drag 400 Sukhoi Su-27s out of storage and upgrade them too… of course the real problem is that MIG is not going to disappear, but without any business except a few Mig-31 upgrades it is not going to grow, so you have one fighter maker will all the fighter making jobs and another fighter maker with no fighter making jobs and no money.
Sounds to me like a very stupid situation that is rather unnecessary.
MIG-29SMT are good enough to do certain jobs but the amount of time,
resources required to make them usefull for next 10 to 15 years are not there.
For a very small outlay existing Mig-29s can be upgraded, the same way the Flankers are going to be upgraded, it will create a bit of competition in the Russian market, create jobs, and support technology. Remember it is not just MIG we are talking about, but engine makers Klimov, and radar makers that traditionally make radars for MIGs etc that you are supporting.
how can u build RD-33 series 3 engines cheaply with sky high metal prices , energy to run the plant and wage growth to keep up with inflation?
OR u want to use those horrible 1980s era 500 hr life span smokey engines for next 10 to 15 years?
There is alot of other issues i am not even discussing.
star49They already have hundreds of Mig-29s in service and in storage. I doubt the Russian AF will get any new aircraft for the forseeable future except the Su-34, the Yak-130, and the PAK-FA. They currently have plenty of Su-27s, Mig-31s, and Mig-29s. Getting them out of storage and upgrading them will allow the AF to not blow its budget on new aircraft. Remember it needs to upgrade its aircraft but those upgraded aircraft will be useless without all the new weapons the new upgrades and new aircraft are able to use. A PAK-FA with an R-27R missile would be a joke.
The problem is they are concentrating on MIG-31 upgrade at Sokol plant and even that is too slow. How long do u think it will take to upgrade 200 MIG-29? when MIG-31 upgrade will take alteast 10 years.
Against warmed over F-16s in eastern Europe and a few Rafales and Typhoons the Mig-29 is good enough to hold its own… if you buy the modern weapons and give it a modest upgrade.
The problem is that East EU country will give bases to JSF operations in Future thats why Ruaf commander has to say MIG-31 can fight 5th generation not MIG-29.
Now that they have money they need to upgrade their transport and logistics to cope with the increased traffic.
Those IL-76 can still be built in Tashkent and they bought the factory also.
So there are other factors other that range?
offcourse Range is not the factor.
If the only company that gets work in Russia is Sukhoi then only Sukhoi will be able to do the work. Do you not understand that is a very good reason to spread the money around and give MIG some work too?
Sukhoi has 15 year advantage over any other firm in Russia. u cannot ignore this fact. Flanker engine sales in thousands. Even J-10 uses same engine.
We keep hearing about just having one type of fighter being a money saver… yet with all the wonderful multirole types in the west how often has it been that one aircraft has actually been used to replace multiple different types previously used in different roles…
I mean if you just look at US carriers… the F-18 first got onboard as a replacement for a strike aircraft called and A-6. Now currently it is also taking on the job of interceptor and the role of the F-14… but soon its strike role will be taken by the JSF and presumably eventually the JSF will take over from the Super Hornet in the interceptor role too… that is the only example I can think of. The F-15C fighter was supported by the F-16… the latter was multirole but generally used as a bomb truck most of the time when the F-15C was available. Then the multirole F-15E replaced the F-111, but it seems that it rarely uses its air to air capability… they are used for strike missions… not CAP.
u have too look into future not past examples. Now avionics are so developed that multifunctional is possible. (they called Su-34 Multifunctional Avionics complex).
The PAK-FA and Su-27BM will mostly be used like the F-22 and F-15C. What Russia actually needs is a lighter, cheaper aircraft able to deliver guided air to ground weapons against ground targets. The Mig-29SMT in my opinion would be rather better at that than more Su-30s or modified Su-27s.
Problem is production capacity. MIG plants simply cannot deliver at quantity and quality at required time frame. and when Sukhoi is already invested so why not improve it further to top level instead of spreading money over Medium tech projects. it is Chinese way of doing things.
Well I feel sorry for the Russian Army. Su-34s will not be very good at supporting ground forces directly the way helos and Su-25s can. Perhaps they need to relearn an old lesson.
Su-34 will surely better than Su-25/MIG-29/Su-24/Tu-22 in its role. Just the sensor power, armour protection both low and high altitude flight profile, side by side cockpit and RCS reduction upto crusie missile level. They have spent past 15 years in perfecting it.
BTW they are upgrading the Tu-22M3, Tu-160 and Tu-95 to allow the use of conventional guided air to ground weapons. I doubt that will harm the use of the Tu-22M3…
No one is saying they should not upgrade it for there intended role.
Like many other long range strike aircraft can… but long range strike and CAS are two very different missions that have very different requirements.
The only person who thinks an Su-34 can replace a fighter and a CAS aircraft and a Theatre bomber… is an accountant.
Nope. Su-34 is different than regular Flanker. read Mikhail Simonov interview.
No you can’t. UAVs only work when there is no air defence and no enemy air force. Even the most sophisticated UAV can be shot down easily because they don’t have RHAWs and self defence suites etc etc. They will fly straight and level no matter how many shells or missiles are heading towards them. And dont say UAVs can be fitted with RHAWs and ESM and ECM Suites… they certainly can but now they cost as much as manned aircraft…. and probably more than an SMT upgrade of a Fulcrum.
The chance of UAV and MIG-29SMT against sophisticated airdefence is the same. Modern UAV has very low radar signature and fly very high for long loiter time.
And how many Russian AF aircraft are in service now that can currently carry and use a 400km BVR missile? When was the last time the Russian AF fired a missile at a real target that was more than 20km from the launch aircraft?
they are working towards long range BVR capablity through MIG-31 and later on Flanker series. No point in introducing short range capability.
For most operations they will need to positively ID the target before they are allowed to open fire. Having Mig-29SMTs near the border to make the first intercepts makes perfect sense.
and than u have to separate supply chain for keeping MIG-29s in airforce. They have to reduce the types of aircraft to achieve better efficiency from other aircrafts. Russia has shortage of industrial workers in key fields. It just cannot afford workers to spread around so many different aviation plants and projects and it has already affected the export projects and is affecting MTA project too. ur not looking at big picture.
Very few real targets need 1.5 ton bombs. Those that do can be dealt with via larger aircraft, but why would you base your tactical “numbers” fighter bomber on such extremes? For most air to air missions then 4 R-77x and 2 R-74 and a couple of fuel tanks would do the job. For light strike replace two of those R-77x with 2 x 500kg guided bombs and the job will likely get done effectively enough. Remember a flight of 4 aircraft in the air to air role would give you 16 R-77s and 8 R-74s, while in the air to ground role you’d have 8 x 500kgs of bombs, 8 x R-77x and 8 R-74.
the problem is not one off target or War which is cheaper compared to Industrial production, personal, money to spread around so many fighter types and we go into future the cost of avionics is going up exponentially. so u want only to give it to the best.
Investing money in a product to sell on the open market to those customers that have money but buying western aircraft is not an option makes perfect sense. If you can use it yourself too as a low cost numbers plane all the better. A light strike fighter doesn’t need the stealth to penetrate heavy enemy air defences around cities. It would also be adequate enough to face off against European fighters and Chinese fighters for the forseeable future too.
If it also keeps some competition in the Russian aviation market then it is also worth it.
Wasting lots of money on a few hundred PAK-FA and their weapons when they could use their money more effectively on upgrades of existing types so PAK-FA numbers don’t need to be too high to protect all of Russia is a game I think the RUAF wont play.
They are already playing only high end game. when u look at there Industrial policy. No more cheap stuff. u cannot bifurcate airforce into two tiers.
Upgraded Mig-29s and upgraded Su-27s can be given away to allies as gifts as they get older. I can’t see them being able to justify giving away PAK-FAs no matter what their condition.
provided those allies are interested in Soviet era built aircraft.
Considering the numbers of types they have managed to maintain in service I still can’t see the logic of getting rid of an aircraft they have lots of in storage.
Withdrawing the Mig-29 from RuAF service will likely kill any chance of the Mig-35 getting into Indian service. A few million dollars per aircraft to get them to SMT level would make them 10 times more useful than the base model Mig-29s they have had in service all this time. They have certainly done what was expected of them up until now… they haven’t withdrawn them from service as quickly as they could.I personally think this is down to politics and making political choices… well it is obviously bad for the end user.
storage aircraft does not mean that u to bring back all of them into service and do costly traing at todays sky high fuel and material prices. Only the best will survive for its intended role.
star49Same experts said that China won’t be able to fully copy an Su-27SK and all its systems in 11 years, but the Chinese went ahead and built a better one in a third of that time. Shows you how clueless these experts are.
No. they are not clue less. they have seen the L-15 project end result. Mock up shown in 2004. Flight in 2006. But no engine even for next 5 years. AL-55 development was signed in August 2005 and it is in flight testing on MIG-AT and will be exported to India 2009. It is less than 4 years development on India money schedule.
LOL. All small potatoes now. TSMC is now world’s 5th largest producer. Where is Mikron?
TSMC is just assemble line based on contract manufacturing. nothing to do with its own intellecutal property. Just like Volkswagen make millions of cars inside Chinese factores.
Influence? Where? The Russian Mafia? Sistema has zero influence on the IT industry world wide.
zero influence. how many countries are tying up with them just to have foot in door to Russia/CIS market. Ask Cisco/Infenon/STMICRO
Tell that to Bill Gates and Microsoft. He just invested his largest overseas research facility in China.
It is not R&D. I put the example of Samsung R&D. it is just customization for Chinese market.
The fact that you don’t know crap is that a good old Centronics printer port has multiplexing. Somehow you think that’s a sign of advanced avionics?
I know far ahead of you on just about everything in this world.
What 10% of the science Russia has produced? The ones they copied from WWII German scientists? While the rest of the world developed the Transistor, the Microwave, the Magnetron, the Microprocessor, the Internet?
Tell this to Intel when they bought Russian firm with 3000 Top engineers for 64 bit computing. or the Pentium name itself. Even the new 10 hr battery for laptop is developed in Russia. I am not even going into millions immigrants to West or entire history of science.
It took 100 years just design ur own railway and that after foreign copying.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Railways
In the early 1830s Russian inventors father and son Cherepanov built the first Russian steam locomotives. The first railroad track was built in Russia in 1837 between Saint-Petersburg and Tsarskoye Selo
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rail_transport_in_the_People’s_Republic_of_China
However, many railways were designed, constructed, or even owned by foreign companies. The first indigenously designed and constructed railway by Chinese is the Jingzhang railway built from 1905 to 1909
Glosnass? Look at GPS, which achieves a much higher resolution. German/Dutch/French are not running the world’s most advanced fabs, the Japanese, the Koreans and the Taiwanese are. They’re the ones with the 300mm wafers. TSMC alone has 50% of the freeplay market, and the rest of the 50% is divided between other Taiwanese, China, Singapore and Korean fabs. Infinion behind the Ipod? Are you deluded or something? Ipods are subcontracted to a Taiwanese firm and made in China. My Ipod Touch says Made in China.
GPS was better funded in 90s but now Glosnoss is better funded.
IPOD touch says Made In China based on what? Even my computer say same.
EU produced the most advance semiconductor equipment and they are in very high end research with Russians. and they are big suppliers to Military equipment also.
http://www.eureka.be/files/:1646128
A series of successful projects in the EUREKA MEDEA+ Cluster is enabling Europe to lead the way in extreme ultraviolet (EUV) lithography for the production of future generations of semiconductor chips. Strong cooperation between chipmakers, equipment suppliers and research centres has made it possible for European companies to dominate the world market for sophisticated processing equipment and production materials required in this key enabling technology for micro- and nano-electronics devices and systems
As a result, the first commercial masks have already been delivered to ASML – the Netherlands-based global leader in lithography equipment for chipmaking
You really have no idea how complex the civilian fields and technologies can be.
Surely I dont have any idea. Just look at Gaz Tigr. when its 200bhp/400lbft 3.2L turbo diesel was developed a decade ago which Japanese diesel good match that power from capacity? Ask Renualt (the owner of Nissan/Infiniti) about Russian autoindustry. At price office Space u can built entire factory in east asia. Russian science is at different level.
http://in.reuters.com/article/asiaCompanyAndMarkets/idINL0250518220080402
German Bosch plans huge new office in Russia
And the last Soyuz nearly has a disastrous reentry.
So one reentry does not change the huge commerical success of Space launch industry. Just ask the French why they build platform for at French Guiana or Brazaillion or South Korean whose launch platform is designed by Russian. China cannot match this. no matter how much money u waste.
More and More countries are lining up.
http://www.businessday.co.za/articles/topstories.aspx?ID=BD4A773073
Breakthrough on SA-Russian satellite at last
It does not change the fact that the Kaveri is being tested in Russia, which means Russian assistance, and obviously the help is not “helping”.
And MI-171 has been tested in Tibet. what has Russia to do with Kaveri?
http://en.klimov.ru/production/helicopter/VK-2500
VK-2500 engines as components of a MI-17-V5 power plant passed tests in the mountains of Tibet
India’s IT industry has deep connections with the Silicon Valley. They learned a lot themselves but also with the help of these connections, as many Indians work in Silicon Valley. Help from Russians is zero in this field.
And who built silicon valley? or are saying there was no Soviet/Russian immigrants in Northern California. think a little harder. Just look at certain names in those regions.
and that deep connections are built later first Indians has to prove that can do it by themselves. and it came when large number of Indian came to west to study and get Job/Training/Experiance. Since they are the largest number in language so nothing surprizing they will get largest number of contracts but it does not mean some one help them. Barrier to entry in IT are lower for new nations.
But why Boeing Research design center (BRC) is in Russia not in India? or GM hydrogen research? or Samsung Research center for Optics/Software algorithms/new technolgoies? or Nuclear Research agreement between Russian/French firms.think over it. Certain things are harder than the others. Every country has its own level in Global supply chain of Science.
star49But its range includes inflight refuelling and Russia does not have an infinite supply of tankers… in fact they have a rather limited supply.
They brought IL-476 production to Russia to produce all variants of IL-76. why do u think they did it? Atleast $1.5b needed to start IL-76 production in Russia.
If range was that important then get rid of the Su-34 and use Backfires… with inflight refuelling capability restored one Backfire can carry more than three times the weapon load of a single Su-34 on an unrefuelled radius of 2,000km. That means if you add inflight refuelling its range explodes because at max payload its range is mostly reduced because fuel is offloaded to allow the extra weapons weight. As soon as it is airborne it can add more fuel and improve its range considerably.
Backfire is uneconomical in engine life, fuel efficiency for the kind of role that is for Su-34. Even the plant of Backfire does not have train workers to modernize it in qood quantity what Sukhoi can do. u have to admit that fact that due to exports in 90s Sukhoi now enjoys huge lead in Production technolgoy and worker training. For the exact same reason even civillian MS-21, Sukhoi SSJ and Yak-130 are produced in Sukhoi plants.
The original Mig-29 was a short range fighter. The current models are more like medium range fighters. The difference in range isn’t that large from the Su-27. Most of the Su-27s flights are with half their fuel tanks empty.
Those are old stories.
The reality is that the Su-34s are taking over from the Su-24s and as such their air to air training will hardly be extensive. It might have impressive capabilities in air to air but it will only use these capabilities in self defence.
Su-34 is taking over from both Su-24/Su-25 and Tu-22 to large extent.
What makes the Su-25 and the A-10 for that matter good for close support is because they are not fast.
If an Su-25 can’t carry a heavy enough weapon for CAS then you really need to ask is it really CAS or is it strike…
Su-34 can fly at tree height with speed and can surprize unsophisticated enemy with its much powerful sensors. Even they are buying expensive french stuff to equip it. This just shows its importance.
Yeah but lets not over estimate the savings. I mean why would the Russian Army need a light helo to replace the Mi-2 when they could use the Mi-8 instead… it is already inservice. Well some of the roles a light helo performs are hard to perform in a bigger helo. For example the Russian Army just ordered 10 Mi-34s because the other light helos in service can’t be looped and rolled and manouvered like the new Mi-28N can, so they wanted a trainer helo that would allow the students to practise such things before they got into the Havoc. They are also introducing the ANSAT helo into service to replace the Mi-2 which of course was made in a NATO country now. The point is that for many roles a lighter helo makes more sense than using a heavy large helo for the job.
Helicopter is not good example for fighters. u can just replace UAV/UCAV for light to medium fighters.
You talk about the cost of Su-35s… well the cost of upgrading Mig-29s to Mig-29SMTs is about 6 million per aircraft… that is less than some tanks and also cheaper than many attack helos and even some LIFTs yet offers rather better performance in every respect.
And that $6m will not give u the ability of $40m Su-35. u cannot put IRBIS into Fulcrum nor the 400KM range BVR weopon.
They have hundreds of stored Su-27s and Mig-29s, I doubt they will be buying very many new aircraft at all except the PAK-FA.
The Mig-35 can carry 6.5 tons of weapons… which is probably 4.5 tons more than it will normally carry for most of its life.
6.5tons is difficult to put on 10 weopons station. Su-35 has 14 and can carry much stronger weopon load on each weopon stations. much more flexibility for heavy pounding.
The JSF is an international project to create a single engine 5th gen fighter to replace a lot of different fighter and light strike and VSTOL fighters. It was never designed to be the cheaper compliment to the F-22, but was supposed to be cheap because of the numbers to be produced. The MIG design however has been designed from the outset to offer 5th gen fighter performance at reduced prices. Everything the F-16 should have been but ended up not being because they had to put all the bells and whistles on it.
JSF cannot supercrusie at speeds and heights of F-22 nor will the radar size will be the same. No point in pouring money in second best because there is no trophy for second best.
How much money do you think the RuAF will be getting?
Odds are they can either buy 400 PAK-FAs or they can have an airforce that is properly funded. I would expect from 2018 they might get 4-5 a year initially and by 2025 they might get 20-30 per year to replace the older legacy fighters still in service.
I expect alot of money as big Russia companies buy natural resorces and companies around the world. I expect the Ruaf reach will increase proportionally to protect those interests not to mention Fleet and bomber escort with long leg fighters.
In european Russia I would expect the Mig-29 to be the most widely deployed fighter, but with the SMT upgrade they can perform medium level strike missions with TV, laser, and IR guided and of course satellite guided bombs and missiles.
The main reason the Mig-29SMT and Su-27SM upgrades are not being introduced more urgently is because the precision guided munitions they use are still not in widespread service in the RuAF.
… a lot of money needs to be spent yet, but unless the threat levels change dramatically (ie McCain for two terms and then something worse perhaps) I can’t see the urgency in getting rid of perfectly good aircraft like the Mig-29 and Mig-31 and Su-27s.
Su-27/MIG-31 will be upgraded with time but i am not sure about MIG-29 for Ruaf on same scale.
star49I think you are too optimistic. PAK-FA is expensive and production will probably not exceed 10 per year (unless a new cold war heats up). Total procurement will probably be no more than 200 units. There will also probably get about 200 Su-34s for the strike role as well (not enough to replace the Su-24s).
I put news from Sukhoi on Old PAK-FA thread that PAK-FA will only be economical to produce when alteast one regiment of 24 aircraft per year is produced and they agree with it. 200 Su-34 are certainly much more capable than 600 Su-24. Just look at Speed, range, future missiles and sensors reach.
They will have to fill the rest of their squadrons with 4.5 gen fighters and fighter-bombers: SU-35 and Mig-35. The Sukhois mainly for air defense and the Migs mainly for ground attack. The Mig will somehow have to fill in the shoes of the Su-24 ( as there will not be enough Su-34s) and Su-25 on certain missions (PGM delivery), while a single seat ground attack version of the Yak-130 will have to do the low level close support.
There are many places where the airforce would prefer to station smaller and cheaper (more expandable) Migs rather than Su-35s : such as bases near borders and bases abroad (the Russian Mig-29s based in Armenia and the Su-25s in Kirkhizistan come to mind).
The Mig-35 is a extrmely versatile platform. Over 2000km range on internal fuel only, large number of hardpoints for all kinds of air-air and air-surface weaponry, very well equipped (AESA radar, optronics etc.) and fast (Mach2). The Su-35 is more capable in almost every field, indeed. But the Su-35 carries with it a higher price tag plus higher operating costs (fuel etc.).
I think the Mig-35 has a future in the RusAF. I would like to see the actual final version of the real plane (so far we have seen a small scale model and a prototype that is not the final product).
I dont think so. there is no large scale budget and procurement programe for MIG-29. Su-27SM continue and 3 prototypes of Su-35 will fly this year. (how many prototypes of new MIG-35 will fly this year?). and Su-35 is not much worse in fuel economyl as it needs 11,500kg fuel to produce 3600KM range with 4 missiles. while MIG-29 needs 5500kg of fuel for 2000KM range. and agianst Stealth targets u need aircraft with very powerful sensors with lot of fuel economy and speed. (Su-35 Mach 2.25 at 36000feet).
[quote]
http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2008/05/28/224204/oak-puts-faith-in-sukhoi.html
OAK puts faith in Sukhoi
Sukhoi Supreme
In refining its strategy for 2008-15, OAK has given Sukhoi complete responsibility for two key fighter programmes, the Su-27SM2 and its export version Su-35, and the Su-34. Along with Superjet, these programmes enjoy large research and development and export sales funding from the Russian defence ministry and Kremlin-controlled banks including VTB, VEB and, for Superjet, the French and Italian COFACE and SACE export support agencies. These arrangements are designed to protect OAK from creditors should the Su-35 or Superjet projects fail, by making Sukhoi and SCAC liable.
star49Even if the role is perimeter defence you need numbers as well as range.
If range was really all important then why bother with the Su-34?
Su-34 can reach most of targets in EU/Middleast/Asia and can be serviced from greater number of air bases and can do fighter role to certain extent.
With inflight refuelling and conventional weapons the Tu-160 has much longer range than the Su-34 could ever have. It can carry 5 times the payload maybe three times further… the problem is lack of numbers. The Russian AF wants about 300 Su-34s. 300 long range strike aircraft… and 400 fighters?
They are also buying 1 blackjack per year and and have new Strategic Stealth bomber part of there budget plan. So long range strike is far more important than short leg fighters.
Range is very useful for many missions but numbers are important too. The US can only afford 189 F-22s, and 20 B-2s. The purpose of the F-35 is that they will be built in the thousands…
Anybody thinks the PAK-FA will be built in the thousands here?
Su-34 not only has greater range but due larger fuel capacity it can be refuelled further away from the battlefied.(larger internal fuel gives even more range due to refuelling). And than there is that huge radar in the nose along with huge spine & bigger tail sting in the back. And they are going to use this aircraft for EW/antisubmarine warfare and is well protected and perfected for low altitude flying and bombing just like Su-25 with much higher speed and load. And it has alot in common interms of engines with rest to Flanker fleet and production capacity will rise to much higher number with time. New MIG-35 simply cannot carry the size of weopon and will not be much cheaper than $50M and in case of single engine 5th generation the cost will be much closer to twin engine long range fighter. Just look at F-22/JSF cost. pretty close.
I tend to think they will buy 20 to 30 PAK-FA per year for long time like so 400 to 800 number is reasonable along with 200 Su-34.
star49actually, I know quite a bit. I read all the kanwa articles on it, all the Russian promotion on it. How much of J-11B info do you think is available for people like you to understand.
So how much do u know about MIG-31BM/Su-34/Su-27SM that has entered service. Both MIG-31/Su-34 are called 5th generation equivalents.
so, you don’t know about the improved Taihang that will be ready in a couple of years and have higher thrust and T/W ratio than 117S and you claim that su-35 has more advanced engine?
Other than PL-12, have you seen the latest generation SRAAM and LRAAM that China is developing? But we have seen all the stuff about the new generation Russian AAMs that have been hyped for years but have not come out.
More than 200KM range BVR missile has entered service with MIG-31BM. and Su-35 is offered with updated versions of SRAAM/BVR for export. the amount of time u r taking on L-15/FC-1 engine shows something.
On one hand claiming that u can mass produced things and on otherhand not enough for even domestic one.
so basically, it’s still less reliable than F110 series. It has worse T/W ratio (I mean US standard T/W, not the Russian Standard) than 132. Unobjectively looking at the Russian engines, I would say FM4 is actually better than 117S.
less reliable?
How many Flankers or J-10 in third world countries have crashed during past 10 years due malfunction?
WS-10A has better thrust, better T/W ratio and once it matures will have better reliablility and it’s worse than AL-31? Do you know that they ramped up the production of WS-10A in October of last year. And it’s expected to reach 100 this year and equip all of the J-11Bs and large number of J-10s?
better thrust, TWR?
it’s still a 4th generation fighter no matter how much boasting Russians do.
It is clearly 4.5 generation fighter. no other fighter boost 3D TVC, FBW, Supercrusie, Range, and radar/IRST performance that matches 5th generation.
http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2008/02/25/221770/sukhoi-su-35-1-makes-first-flight.html
Launched in 2003, the Su-35-1 (pictured below) features a Tikhomirov NIIP Irbis radar with a detection range of 400km (216nm), a reshaped wing and two NPO Saturn Item 117S engines with vectored thrust and supercruise capability. The airframe is designed for 6,000 flight hours or a 30-year service life
The missiles we got for su-30 are inferior in every way to domestic options. That’s why they like jh-7a more than su-30 now. And who is going to fight with the maximum load? You loose range and maneuverability doing so.
Export Su-30MK is alot more expensive than low end JH-7
don’t boast to me, it does not good. Again, plaaf have already tested this out. It has nothing on the AESA radar being prepared for J-11B in the near future.
Plaaf tested?
it’s a good thing they are getting a newer version of AA-12, because it wasn’t any good compared to PL-12. As I mentioned, the new generation of SRAAM has finished development. It will certainly be a newer generation than R-73. As for ramjet based LRAAM, that will also be coming out.
India ,Malaysia,Algeria has all the options of MICA/IRIS-T/ASRAAM/Python5. why dont they chose that over R-73 untill now when they have chosen other stuff from those countries? Now dont start u built some thing better than those as u havent done anything in anyother field.
you are boasting because it has a couple of MFDs, a wide-angled HUD and a FBW? It’s certainly a modern 4th generation cockpit, but how many fighters don’t have that right now? I even see all of the above on JF-17.
Just look at Size of MFD on Su-35 and the kind of information it displays from various sources.
star49Always international colloboration. using firms.
http://lt-cnc.sict.ac.cn/en_introduce.asp
International collaboration：In 1997, NERC-HECNC developed the PC/NC serial high-end CNC systems together with national company and international Corporation, which are equipped with various machine tools, such as lathe, milling machine, grinding machine, finishing machine and forming machine, etc.
related history for comparision.
http://www.zakgear.com/Spiral_bevel_ZAKgear.html
The basic elements of the ZAKGEAR production method was born during the romantic time of the Cold War between the United States of America (USA) and the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics (USSR). During that old time the USA export control did not allow selling Gleason spiral bevel technology to the USSR. The federal authorities believed that the subject technology would benefit Soviets in manufacturing more cost-effective geared transmissions for land and air combat vehicles. Ironically, US embargo worked out not exactly the way it was intended. It catalyzed development of a better technology in Russia. Russkies learned on other people’s mistakes and started to build their own spiral bevel gear machines in Saratov. Gleason spiral bevel software was not available in the USSR even for its six-digit price tag. Russian engineers would have to figure out calculation of machine summary by themselves. Software package named VOLGA has been developed. It was reported to be more accurate spiral bevel summary calculation tool compare to other software. It has to be noted that at that time Gleason calculated summary would not provide the final summary at the first cut. Russian professor Segal was one of the major spiral bevel theoreticians in Russia. When retired, he moved to Germany and was employed by Klingelnberg until he died. Before moving to Germany Professor Segal proposed an idea of a CNC gear cutting machine. The underlying idea of the Segal’s concept was to control the motion of the gear cutting tool not by a complex gear transmission but by linear and rotary actuators that would follow to the commands from a computer program. Segal’s CNC gear machine concept was too advanced for that time. Later Klingelnber, Oerlikon, Gleason, MG Minigears, and other companies reduced Segal’s idea to practice
star49LOL tell that to these big guys
:p
😉
Very good history of producing Science.
http://www.jiermt.com/jier_en/about/about_qyls.htm
In 1981
Signed a full co-operation agreement of ten-year term with Verson AllSteel Company, USA in the range of mechanical presses including straight-side single action, double action and transfer presses, and imported the design drawings, processing and Inspection technology of 8 series of 35 types
In 1992
Signed a co-production agreement of ten-year term with Forest-Line, France in the range of CNC machine tools including gantry type, floor type boring & milling machines and vertical turning machines etc.
In 1997
Co-produced with Komatsu Ltd for supplying one 2000t tandem press line and one 1200t press line respectively to General Motors (Thailand) Ltd and its subsidiary IBC Vehicle, UK
Co-produced with Muller Weingarten for Gerneral Motors’s subsidiary in Shanghai, Shandong of China, Canada and USA.
In 2003
In 2003, successfully developed high-speed 5-axis CNC milling machine
In 2004
renamed as JIER MACHINE-TOOL GROUP CO.,LTD
star49WOWSERS!! am I in agreement with Victor?- I would contend sort of.
Even if the RuAF put out a tender for a light-fighter in a decade’s time MiG would be utterly foolish to put forward the LMFS- which is essentially a single-engined 1.44 rehash. It would have to be a completely brand-new, clean-sheet design (maybe 6th Gen.?), of which MiG would be project leader under OAK (if it wins), which would guarantee the Kremlin’s darling Sukhoi a significant workshare.
Incidently, Sukhoi is developing the all composite wing for MS-21.I see no problem with an all heavyweight RuAF. The ‘point-defence’ ethos of MiG-29 class is largely redundant.
Ruaf is upgrading MIG-31 and putting the longest range missile with uprated engine. so MIG-29 is not the only product for MIG apart from UCAV/UAV coming.
And range seems very important for Sukhoi/Ruaf along with biggest radars/sensors. they are putting 10hrs airborne time for Su-34. Almost 10,000km range with refuelling and ET.
The whole strategy around Su-27SM/MIG-31BM/SU-27BM/Su-34/PAK-FA is too have longest legs with biggest radar/missiles. Put ultralong range BVR and ASM into thsoe platforms. u immensly increase the radius of action both in Strikerole and air to air protection to SSN/SSBN fleet along with bombers.
U can practically Challenge US/Japanes/Chinese navies in open seas thousands of kms away from shore. and with new railway infrastructure coming up in russia from east to west. the importance of Oceans will decrease with time. I dont see anyrole for smaller fighters in future.
star49lol this is the problem with crobato vs Flogger/Star49 threads.
it first starts off about Russian aircraft A vs Chinese aircraft
then it goes off about some other industry like computers and then cars
then it stops being about Russia and China and then becomes Latin America, Russia vs China and the rest of Asia because one guy has too much latin pride and an obsession with Russia, while the other has too much Asian pride and a dislike over Russia, probably because of some historical things between China and Russia that are not so relevant today.Yes, we know Russia doesn’t produce nice consumer electronics like Japan or Taiwan, but what relevancy that has to do with military aircraft is beyond me.. especially since Russia (while its no US) is able to produce some interesting designs that are usually beyond everyone else except the US, and in many cases, W.Europe). The only unfortunate thing is the procurement will be slow while as procurement in China will be faster simply because they have more money to throw and obviously a greater need at the moment.
Also i see alot of arguing between pro Russian kids and over optomistic Chinese nationalists, and very little stats and links to actually back up the claim. one side often posting irrelevant links with dubious credibility, and the other side not even posting any links at all.
The only reason i am in this debate because of this.
U can practically buy a Mercedes Benz but it doesnot mean u can learn to built cars just by buying a piece of it. Aircraft/Engines is far complex than this.
The only way u can rippoff of some one else technology when ur own Students study in that country. spends decades in gaining practical experiance in various firms later own open ur own firms based on that technolgy and provide contract services.
offcourse there is hard currency factor also when u have hundreds of billions in foreign reserves. u can practical steal science behind every nut and bolt of a factory. Which is not the case with Soviet Union as they dont have that hard currency nor there was joint ventures in various fields as there was nothing to market to consumers.
Both FC-1/J-10 are built with Russian help and has clear influence from single engine MIG-33 to that MIG-1.44 influences.
Russia would be the last one to have any leg on claiming piracy since the Russian jet industry was based on the stolen variants Nene engine.
In fact, the Mig-29 and Su-27 were based on stolen designs of the teen fighters if you look enough into US claims during the 70s to the 90s.
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Russia has helped in the FC-1(JF-17) and the Chinese still sell it as if they did design it by them selves.One of the most retarded claims I have ever heard. Russian firms were contracted to provide the engine and consulting on other aspects but how is contracting people means you give up ownership?
Does US firms contracting to Indian back office and outsourcing companies means their products now belong to India?
The FC-1 (and the J-10) has far Western origins than Russian.
star49You don’t have the science to make fab either. So what is your hypocritical statement is all about. Actually Taiwan and China has already started designing and manufacturing fab equipment on its own. Its all really just a matter of time.
http://www.eetimes.com/news/semi/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=164900837
so why STMICRO/IBM invited for the most advance research in fab. why Infenon has direct cooperation agreement with Mikron. why Altis was allowed to be bought by Russians.(they know how to upgrade and run Fabs)
China now manufactures about 25% of the world global demand in chips. About 10% of what it makes goes to its own military and defense sector.
10% go to defense? link.
Wrong. Sistema only owns stock in MTS, which has many shareholders. Pointing to MTS Mobile is irrelevant since it has nothing to do with chip production.
use ur head. Ownerships in Russian strategic enterprizes are not clear cut. Sistema have enormous influence. why would a CEO will go from $35B company to much smaller value company?
http://www.russiatoday.ru/business/news/25467
One of Russia’s biggest conglomerates Sistema has appointed Mobile TeleSystems head Leonid Melamed as its new CEO. The announcement came on the day Eastern Europe’s biggest mobile operator launched Third Generation (3G) operations in Russia.
Melamed makes the step up to MTS’s parent company, having more than tripled the mobile operator’s capitalisation to around $US35 billion
China’s true state of RD is the fact it now is among the top five nations in the world for patent filings.
China is not R&D power. I showed the link to Samsung what kind of R&D is done. It is verylow level like MP-3 players,cell phone etc.
You must be really so darn stupid. Multiplex channels have been in consumer electronics since the eighties with the simplest microcomputers.
And composites have been civllian application way head from Military aircrafts. u don know anything.
The basis of a defense military industry comes from a commercial industry. You have not known by now, that the West superiority in the defense military industry comes from the roots in the commercial industries. I remember AGAT claiming a significant improvement in the R-77’s seeker performance when they used a garden variety TI 32032 DSP in place of the Russian one. How you manufacture TVs and radios will be reflected in the manner you manufacture avionics for bombers. Things like quality control in mass production. Things you won’t learn without a large commercial industrial base. Did you ever learn how the US auto industry played its decisive part in helping to win WW2? The defense military sector has a lot to learn from commercial electronics, hence the term COTS is the hot thing. Commercial electronics are happening in Moore’s cycles, and that’s way a lot faster than developing electronics specifically for the defense industry, where it becomes obsolete by generations by the time it reaches service. Things like GaN fabrication, which has made GaAs obsolete in AESA, started in the commercial field to improve telecommunication and wireless broadband performance.
Civillain and defence have nothing with Science. if EU/US would be under communist sytem for past 100 years. they would not be even able to produce 10% of science what Russia has produced. totally different intellectual levels. Converting Civillian technolgy is whole different level of complexity. Just look Glossnos-M/K Satellites. how much cost and time EU will take to reach that level. and EU is the world Best Industrial power. It is German/Dutch/French machines that are running the most advanced fabs. it is infenon that is behind IPOD. They are in very high end business.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/05/29/AR2008052903628.html
Russian Firm Buys McLean’s International Launch
A Russian space hardware manufacturer is now the majority owner of International Launch Services, a McLean company formed 15 years ago to help market and manage commercial rocket launches for the Russian firm
ILS holds the exclusive rights worldwide to market and sell the services of the Proton and Angara. The company has about 60 employees in McLean and has a backlog of 22 rocket orders totaling about $2 billion. Customers have included Sirius Satellite Radio and DirecTV, ILS said.The company also helps Khrunichev gain approval from the U.S. State Department to export satellites and other components manufactured here for use abroad. ILS will remain based in McLean.
star49Oh what you seemed to miss is that Russia barely has a machine tool industry now, and that it has to import all sorts of machine tools. China alone in 2005 manufactured over 51,000 machine tools, but even that wasn’t enough to cover local demand. Don’t expect that the machine tools Chengdu and Shenyang bought in the 90s will stay that way—they will eventually be upgraded.
Anylink for this claim that Chengdu/Shenyang has updated recently?
http://www.americanmachinist.com/304/Issue/Article/False/68570/Issue
Besides the familiar companies, MASHEX also provided the opportunity to visit with Russian machine tool manufacturers such as the Ivanovo Heavy Machine Tool Building Works (http://www.invanovocenter.ru), the Ryazan Machine Tool Plant (http://www.rsz.ru) and the Savelovsky Machine Building Factory, whose equipment has not appeared at shows in the United States. These companies have been in operation for more than 50 years, and the 5-axis high speed machining centers, horizontal machining and boring machines, and CNC lathes they produce appear to be every bit on par with anything produced in the West.An Ivanovo machining center, for example, can be equipped with automatic pallet changers, 40-tool turrets, and window that permits the operator a view of an operation that is unimpeded by fluid splash.
The Ryazan Machine Tool Plant claims to bethe largest machine tool plant in Eastern Europe, boasting a workforce of 3,000 employees. The plant said it has supplied more than 20,000 CNC machines that operate in 80 countries around the world.
The Savelov Machine Tool Company belongs to Russia’s Aircraft Ministry, and produces lathes, CNC vertical and horizontal milling machines and CNC machining centers, along with tool and part
No. India built those planes with kits from Russia, and look today the trouble they are having with Tejas development. Apparently they did not learn from this much. The problem with you is that the Russian formula for “trusting” technologies to India did not result India getting or digesting the best tech. Look at the Charlie class submarine India leased, the Russians guarded the reactor room and won’t let Indians come in. Today China is now serially manufacturing its second generation nuclear submarines, India will only get its first ever nuclear sub a few years from now with Russian “help”. Look at the Kaveri engine, the Russians are doing the testing and up to now, it hasn’t been done. Why would the Indians let the Kaveri be tested with the Russians is beyond me since the Russians have dubious motives; the Kaveri would probably have been done already if the Indians developed a flying test bed on their own. The one industry India had the most progress is, is the one industry that had the most contact with the West, the IT industry.
The problem with Teja is that it started with Western orientation. Look at Dassualt/BAE/LockheedMartin/Elta/GE/Alenia. If they would have stayed with MIG-MAPO they would have got RD-33 series powered single engine MIG-33 project 2 decades ago just look ur own FC-1.
. Russia deliver the end result when money is there. IT industry does not have anything to do with West help India. The learned bythemselves as it is not hard compared to making aircraft,FBW and engines.
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