That is not the only thing they do (Trust me 😉 ) . A lot can be done by maintainers , systems and other applications . Paint is one aspect but their are other things they do when the aircraft goes to “the shop” some we know others we dont . Sensors also play an important role , your passive sensors usually improve with block upgrades (their is rumoured to be space left for the raptor to get IRST as it was enviosioned earlier) , antenna signal deflections , spillage etc can be controlled . I wouldnt be surprised if the Combat simulated missions (not on the simulators but in reality) flying today have as much as 10% reduced RCS as opposed to missions being flown during IODTE (ofcourse given proper parameters like TIME SINCE DEPOT , TIME WITH STEALTH OFFICER , etc etc ) . Now that a common USAF jock is begining to learn about stealth (*with fighter force comming up) they now know that the biggest thing for stealth to be effective in the long run IS THE TACTICS USED AND DEVELOPED / IMPROVED ETC ETC specially with changing times. Moreoever in addition to TACTICS constantly being refined and improved upon what is also required is to build around the platforms . You will see with the F-22 and F-35 , weapons building around these platforms Like miniature JAASM’s , SDB’s with extended ranges , WCMD’s and similar weapons . This is just the tip of the iceberg . Decade down the Line they will have these weapons plus JDRADM which provides flexiblity , side arrays (Block 50 ) and hopefully software update and newer gen. DL’s going into development . All this will effectivly improve the capability of the aircraft to engage with threats be it Air – Surface threats or Air – Air threas . The point is not to stay undetected for ever but to safely and within respectable protection destroy possible threats be it air to air or air to surface .

Basic design and materials contracted to build F-22 are more than 15 years old. I gave u some hint what changed dramatically in Radar tech in case of Russia. 400Km range Su-35 fighter radar is for export and that was developed with far less funding. Nothing on the scale what is happening with PAK-FA/S-400/Pantsyir/tor-M2. and u cant use F-22 for ground strikes against IADS because tor/pantsyir class systems can pick up the small quanitities of SDB/JDAMS coming its way in one pass.. there u need B-2 to overhelm with bombing quantitiy.

Ditto with stealth , it took years to come up with shape based stealth like the F-117 , billions and many years , man hours etc . It took more billions to develop next gen stealth in the B-2 however now that they have years of operation data infront of them , greater computing power , greater material research they can make what i like to call (taken from USAF F-22 commanders and F-35 folks) as “EFFECTIVE-PRACTICLE STEALTH” which is maintaince freindly , is least design restricitive (meaning you dont need the F-22 to be a bad aerodynamic config to get stealth) , and is more operationally acheivable (like TEST BED and LAB. values can be reproduced in feild performance when deployed) . Stealth has come a big way since the F-117 and B-2 . The F-22 allows for stealth to be included in the budget of fighter maintaince without extending much from the F-15 TYPE (I use type meaning – similar cost with proper adjustment for time ) monetary values . No need for SPA treatment Like B-2 , the F-22 is expected to be forward deployable and can conduct war like a heavy use tactical weapon unlike a gold plated spa treatment wanting B-2 . B-2 like barack obama is an Elitist 🙂 ( Just following the US news for the last 2–3 days so use this analogy) where as the F-22 and particularly the F-35 are common southern farmers 🙂

Forward deployed F-22? ur putting it underscope of advance barrage IRBMs. U have to park limited number of F-22 farway from theater. where it needs tanker support.

My point is that with radar tech development being quicker other things are also developing faster moreoever the ATF had a think tank which saw the advent of super computers , their proliferation and ever lowering cost helping counter weaponry to be feilded faster heck the USAF was itself relying on that. The UCAV revolution will be a testament to that , Rapid prototyping allows them to test aerodynamic shapes for UCAV sized aircrafts to scale at fraction of the cost , the data collected can be used with computers to rapidly produce a working example , you see test aircraft flying combat missions and doing well . The USAF was aware of this that with all this the counter weapons would be more readily available .

Electronics and processing power is much faster than design of aircraft. Usually through life aircraft avionics can be upgraded four or five times.

For fighter based threats it is good , and if you factor in everything else such as STEALTH , LO , MANUVERABILITY , IA it all adds up (my point) . Mach 1.72 supercruise can provide some good range (@ 60K) for a diamondback JDAM , making the cheap little ordinance a Good SO weapon. I always refer to my theory that the F-22 and up n comming PAKFA killed the PURE INTERCEPTORS as we know of today because they provide INTERCEPTOR like performance ( ofcourse no pakfa is ever going to go mig-31 like speed) in a ALL ROUND BVR-WVR fighter with less cost and maintaince (i always thought a pure INTERCEPTOR is expensive because it gets you to a 3 fighter force (ie one long range interceptor , one long range all round fighter and one small fighter (like MIG25/31 , Su-27/35 and Mig-29) , now you can replace everything with just PAKFA and Su-34 . PAKFA cant go mach 3 but it gives you 60-70% capability (Remember it is stealth so a big plus) without requiring another airframe . CONTRARY TO POPULAR belief the USAF men who chart up the reuquirments for future weaponry , their ability , capability , consider threats and match threat level to capability arent as DUMB as the people they ultimately answer too (the bean counters , aquisition officers and politicians) 😉

PAK-FA is getting 400 to 500KM range missile under Project 810 (R-37 follow on from Vympel) hitting right into space.so it does not need the speed/altitude of MIG-31. and other oversized Air to ground missiles are for Su-34 to carry. No one is saying reason behind F-22 is dumb but the quantity and capaiblity it offer is very limited against the intended target. and F-35 is late for the game. 2008-2015 is the period that Russia will restabilish itself as Superpower. they have recently said they only recongize 1940 caspian sea treaty so there goes the last gas pipe to EU illegal.

Not necc , once IADS of the last 5 – 10 years , and future 5-10 years proliferate particularly the formers ability to be cheaply produced by china and their willingness to sell it would proove very difficult for 4 gen US aircraft to act and operate with impunity within the acceptable loss ratios (acceptable to the force and the public) . Such expidtionary warfare requires speed, ability to overwhelm with quality , knock down the backbone of AD + fighter force and take over target destruction as soon as possible . For this the F-22 will be used weill in GW like scenarios in the future and even otherwise . My opinion is that they need atleat 50 or so more , only 50-60 raptors per corridor isnt enough considering that for A2A they will probably have only half that no. the rest being dual shooters cuz they are carrying SDB’s in addition to the a2a weaponry for TOHV destruction. The F-35 is going to be good A2A fighter , perhaps second only to the F-22 and PAKFA (when that happens) but it has to go through its hardest test (testing and chink removal) which can be expensive and time consuming . We will do well to buy 2 more squadrons of raptors in my opinion and then sell some more to freinds before buying 50-60 FB-22’s for regional bomber missions . But that wont happen , they will shut down raptor buy (perhaps buy 10-20 more) , Extend the LRIP F-35’s and buy more with less testing at higher price tag instead , and spend billions and billions which we dont have on researching a bomber for regional threat which will perhaps be manned and/or unmanned or both and will be 15% more capable then the FB22 at double the R and D price and procurment cost , will be delivered perhaps a decade later and at half the no.s that they need 🙂 . This consistancy of Incompetance in the selection and descision process is admirable and at its highest level unique to the pentagon .

U dont need F-22/FB-22 class ability against third world adversary. there lack of training and skills make them incompetent to fully exploit what ever cheap stuff china export around the world. F-22 makes more logical sense to build it 400 to 500 the numbers required to be in two theatres at same time along with some in maintainance.

You expect the ground based radars around the world to be suddenly 4-5 times more effective within 5 years ?? That is something i find hard to believe . I doubt that the WORLD’s GROUND defences would increase so rapidly over such a short time period , it would suggest that ground radars imrove 20-30 times in capability over a life of an aircraft which i seriously doubt .

S-300 missile range went from 60KM to 200Km in 10 years time period. and now 400KM in 20 year period times. and that was period of slow development. Now you accelerate it with money and COTS technology along with integration and linking. Similar is case with China with there monetary and manpower resources.
It is just example of early warning radar. Now with COTS the size of similar capability is much smaller size. u cannot rely on constant RCS from 90s to deal with some thing in 21st century.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/05/world/europe/05missile.html?partner=rssnyt&emc=rss
Despite the system’s older technology, “I was impressed by what I saw,” General O’Reilly said. “It would be a false impression to dismiss the capabilities they have. They just chose another way of achieving it. It is an excellent radar for the case of early warning.”

The radar has been well maintained and upgraded since its design in the 1970s and construction in the 1980s, prompting General O’Reilly to report back to Washington that the Russian system offers an extremely desirable ability for early warning of a ballistic missile attack from a country like Iran.

Russian military technology is known for designs that are super-size, an outgrowth of Soviet strategy in which a centrally planned economy could push huge sums of rubles to the military to counter American technological superiority.

While American military technology adopted solid-state semiconductor electronics decades ago, the Russian radar still operates using vacuum tubes, General O’Reilly said.

He noted that Russia had improved tube technology far beyond where the United States had taken it before moving to electrical semiconductors

Interesting insight Abhimanyu, there are, however, some other issues too.

Firstly, if Brazil is to join the programme (which is still uncertain ’cause there’s been no official Russian Govt./Sukhoi admission yet) I’d be surprised if they’ll get manufacturing rights and the level of ToT remains uncertain, they will also act as financiers with production of PAK-FA-MKB delegated to HAL. That in itself may be an indicator of spiralling EMD costs.

Secondly, this is a huge coup for Moscow- ‘partnering’ an economic superpower like India and courting an emerging one like Brazil with a prestige project such as an FGFA, is sure to pay huge dividends in the future- F-35 well and truly usurped (hehehehehe!!!).

Maybe this will be a future MBA case study, as for Mr. Pogosyan- “…blessed is the man who has vision”.

PAK-FA can have huge export potential if the produced it in required time. Basically they can offer it all countries in Africa/Latinamerica/Middleast/Asia even EU countries like Greek which are not part of JSF. and when u make twin engines fighter with more range, payload, speed, altitude, radar power, 3D TVC most countries will not inclined for single engine fighters in that price range.

This contract was won in competition with US offers. Barring it would be the rankest hypocrisy, and a strong argument for not buying American, or incorporating anything American in any of our own products.

EU is buying US military equipment not because of any favor but US military equipment is cheaper as they are mass produced and some of them dont have a substitute. and why should US allow AIM-120 sell when there is no prior sell to a particular customer. Since Saudis are paying top money for EF they shouldnt demandy anything less than AIM-120C7 otherwise EF consortium is in breach of contract.

First will be Sukhoi for next 4 years deliveries.
LM F-22 production is capped at 183 and JSF wont ramp up until 2014. But LM will still come 2nd due remaining F-16 deliveries.
third would be EF
fourth will be Boeing
fifth will be Chengdu. they dont have J-7 left and they arent building J-10/FC-1 in big quantities.

Brazil is playing france/US/Russia for tech.

http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5hGPCxiqRRJLngsk8BuZpMfNlz7LwD902HJ2O3
Brazil, Russia to build jet fighter
By MARCO SIBAJA – 6 hours ago

BRASILIA, Brazil (AP) — Brazil and Russia signed an agreement on Tuesday to jointly develop top-line jet fighters and satellite launch vehicles.

Brazil’s Strategic Affairs Minister Roberto Mangabeira Unger told reporters the agreement will lead to the development of fifth-generation jet fighters that are built using sophisticated engineering, such as composite materials, stealth technology and advanced radar.

The agreement signed by Unger and the deputy secretary of Russia’s Security Council, Valentin Sobolev, includes the construction of rockets capable of hurling several kinds of satellites into space.

Brazil builds its own small and medium-size rockets that are launched from the Alcantara base in the northeastern state of Maranhao.

The base is considered an excellent launch site because it is located just 2.3 degrees south of the equator, the line at which the Earth moves the fastest, helping propel rockets into space with less fuel.

Tuesday’s agreement calls for advanced training in the field of cybernetics, which Mangabeira called “essential for the defense and the technological evolution of our industry.” It also involves the transfer of technology, something Brazil has always insisted on.

Earlier this year, France aid it would transfer technology to the Brazil for construction of the Scorpene attack submarine, helicopters and the Rafale fighter plane.

The Scorpene is a conventional attack submarine, but Brazilian officials have said they want the diesel-powered vessel to serve as a model for the development of a nuclear submarine that would be the first in Latin America.

University of Brasilia political scientist David Fleischer said the agreement may not advance very far because Russia may limit the transfer of technology for the fighter jets.

“The problem is that the Russians have never been all that keen on technology transfer,” Fleischer said. “But then again the Russians may want to beat out the French, so the deal could eventually go through.”

“A deal with Russia, together with Venezuela’s recent purchases of Russian weapons, could spark an arms race in South America,” Fleischer added.

Venezuela recently bought 53 Russian-made attack helicopters, 100,000 assault rifles, 24 Sukhoi fighter jets, 12 military transport planes and 5,000 sniper rifles.

The Topsight HMS is a bad example. Why? Because they were integrated with new aircraft under a new contract. Indian AF MiG-29s were delivered before you claim they should have been buying the Python 4, so they already had Russian systems installed and integrated. Next.

there is new contract of IAF MIG-29 upgrade just recently so where i new HMS/Python4 combo? we are already in 2008.

Oh yeah, here’s one for you. I guess the MKK/MK2 must be superior to the MKI as China did not acquire the tandem triplane layout, the TVC engines, or the Bars radar, right?

China acquired all those aircraft before MKI fully developed. MKI fully certified in October 2004 for first version. So u are comparing different time lines. Python 4 time period was in the 90s. and here we are discussing it in 2008.

Your arguments are simply based on past events which you are skewing to make your point for you. There is nothing factual in your argument. Reminds me of the whole “Pakistan inducts weapons before they test them” debacle :rolleyes:

Sequence of events and time line are pretty accurate. Pakistan only test weopons which are already inducted.