star49[QUOTE=Otaku;1238715]Star, the translated article on the MiG-31 is 18 months old, I’m not sure as to how many upgraded 31BMs have been delivered (if any), though the upgrade programme has commenced.
here is from last month. There maybe more at the factory but two are received at Airforce.
http://www.royfc.com/news/mar/2008mar01.html
Russian Air Force Receives Two Upgraded MiG-31BM Fighters into Inventory
Two upgraded MiG-31BM fighters entered the inventory of the Lipetsk Center for Combat Application and Cross-Training of Flight Personnel on Thursday.
Source: 20.03.08, Gudok
Afaik, the RuAF has already placed an initial order for the Su-35, hence the internal designation Su-27SM2. As for 117C -it will probably be retro-fitted to the Su-34 also (or the uprated Salyut AL-31FM3), regardless of maintenance familiarities- they’ll simply have to be re-trained. Incidently, Pogosyan stated the Su-34 is to receive an active array when ready.
As UAZ said earlier, the Su-27SM2 is considered a supplement to the more capable and expensive PAK-FA, and not merely a stop-gap.
Su-35 order placement is unknown at this point. and 117S hasnt been tested yet on Su-34. All contracts are with Salut for airforce modernization and Salut is going to show fifth generation engine next year. there is no such thing as stop gap. once you modernize aircraft with new engines. it will take 20 to 25 years in airforce inventory. By stop gap means that once PAK-FA seiral production starts they will simply stop funding for modernization of further old aircraft but it does not mean they are going to retire old aircraft. Su-34 production is too slow thats why u see Su-24 modernization but that is going to change in next 2 years.
star49What do you mean, “next gen”? Such a missile already exists, and has been in service for several years with the AdlA – the Mica IR. Lock on after launch, datalink, a true BVR IR-guided missile.
Asraam has the range to qualify as a marginally BVR IR AAM, and also has LOAL & a datalink – and has been in service with the RAAF & RAF for years.
This isn’t “next-gen”, it’s live, operational, current generation.
Garry is clearly mentioning “next generation Long range”. MICA/Derby/R-73/Asraam comes under medium range. Every BVR missile automatically does not become long range missile. R-27 is long range missle while R-37 is ultra long range.
star49Actually, in terms of costs, it´s the exact oposite that will happen. These costs are for planes made in Germany, France, Great Britain, etc, etc, and not in India.
Of the entire MRCA fleet, more than 90% will be built in India, and (unlike Saudi Arabia) the production costs are way lower than in Western Europe or in the United States, but higher than in Russia (see HAL 2005 report about the costs and production of the SU-30MKI).
Think Jaguar, the Unit Cost that India payed was lower than if those planes had been made in Warton.
For such a big program the fact that almost the entire fleet of MRCA´s fighters will be built in India it´s a mighty cost equalizer between the contestants.Cheers 🙂
so do u think India will learn to built EF/Rafale/Gripen with 100% Indian parts overnight?:diablo: . Come back when they built 100% MKI including tires with 100% Indian parts . ur looking at decades of gap.
star49Star , what is the cost of maintaince and flying the Mig-31 ? What i am trying to assess is the balance between either maintaining an Mig-31 force vs saving that money and upgrading your Flanker force . I see no threat (Defence wise) that the Flanker cannot take care of for the RuAF .
MIG-31 fuel cost is 15 tons vs 9.4 tons of base line Flanker. MIG-31 engine is related to IL-76 engines so plenty of supplies of spare parts and upgradtion is much easier. so 5 tons per aircraft with 200 aircraft= 1000tons of extra fuel. u mulitply by 200 sorties per year= 20,000 tons. (as i am assuming full fuel use per sortie). 20,000*1000kg*1.2L/3.78*$3= $19m in fuel cost difference per year.
Ruaf has introduced AL-31FM series engines for Su-34 and Su-27SM. So i highly doubt they will introduce 117S powered Su-35 which will be unfimiliar to maintainance crew. and MIG-31 radar is build by same firm as Su-35.
The best upgrade path for them is keep upgrading MIG-31 and Su-27 for high and mid level airdefence role and Su-34/Su-24/Su-25 for Strike role untill PAK-FA replace all of them except for Su-34.
star49Ok, fast forward 8 years, how do you think an F-35 measures up to an Su-35 + LPI-AESA + KS-172 + ramjet R-77Ms + LO material treated + Thales co-developed/produced HMD- in performance & cost?
This is what the (growing) detractors in Australia think, (and not a Carlo Kopp in sight),- recommend the video btw:
I doubt Su-35 will go into Ruaf inventory as it is unfimilair to airforce. Two upgraded MIG-31 is already at final operational status. u already have 200KM missile along with more powerful radar, high speed/altitude with MIG-31.
http://www.royfc.com/news/nov/0906nov03.html
A Hunter in Search of the “Invisible”A unique fighter interceptor, of which there are no counterparts in the world, almost written off as junk
Russia’s air force is ready to accept the first of the upgraded high-altitude MiG-31 fighter interceptors. The other day, the Perm’ Motor Building Complex press service reported about the successful completion of the upgraded fighter’s tests. Now, through their ending, according to air force commander-in-chief, Vladimir Mikhaylov, “great prospects are opening for Russia’s air force in the area of series-built re-equipping of front-line interceptors.” The upgraded airplane is able to detect flight vehicles which are built using “stealth” ((STELS)) technology, including those flying at ultra-low altitudes, at a great distance.
star49All of that and you still have yet to prove that the R-73 is superior to the Python 4.
whate else proof u need when two largest customers India/China in 90s were not buying Python 4 in thousands? it is clearly inferior beyond doubt. i have told you Isreale has to export massively for its own good. The reason Israelis were ahead in certain areas because they had Industrial infrastructure to build better products along with capitalist financial system. and that Industrial infrastructure depended on import from West. Now Russia is importing large scale machinery on massive scale from EU/SK/Japan so there is reverse immigration going on and end result will be much different.
EW suite for aircraft is expensive or WVR missile?
I am not even going into French LCD displays, Cockpit design that effects the weight along with targeting pods. there is communication system and other things. or ur claiming India can afford R-73 on LCA but cant afford python 4 on MKI. how they afford Topsight on MiG-29K and Elta radars for some other aircraft?
star49You’re still wrong. That’s the same thing as saying that the F-22 will provide China with an edge so they’ll end up buying it. You are speaking in complete and utter ignorance of the political and economic factors of the time.
Nope. Israel in late 80s and 90s was different. they had to obsorb millions of immigrants from ex-ussr. they dont have nothing else beside defence industry to absorb.
Look at those erodgan upgrades (Ka-50) and cheap MIG-21 upgrades, radar offering to FC-1 fighter in Beijng Show. they only cancel A-50 agreement after 3 years of pressure. In the meantime alot of knowledge would have flown. Look at harpy drones.
But it didnot prevent Malyaisan to put that wide angle Rafale HUD on MKM and wait four years for it along with whole cocpit. Similar is the case of India. they put Elta EW suite and targeting pods on MKI. so what is preventing WVR? what about putting Barak missiles? if they can afford 4000 R-73. there is nothing prventing them ordering couple of hundred Python4 in 90s and well into 21st century.
See what I mean? Ignorance, in this case of the Western arms embargo with China. Money doesn’t open every door. A lot of them, but not all of them.
But it didnot prevent Malyaisan to put that wide angle Rafale HUD on MKM and wait four years for it.(why left MICA IR for Malaysia when they can afford scorpene submarine). French stuff is the most expensive.
Similar is the case of India. they put Elta EW suite and targeting pods on MKI. so what is preventing WVR? I just gave examples that all those countries have money and time for WVR missile. China. case is alittle different they took what was needed in 90s that case self improvments to there python 3 not even bother with python. China also order close 4000 R-73
the magnitude of order is too huge for Israeli to ignore it and they introduce Python 5 in 2004. So Python 4 is practically give away for export.
star49furnace for 5th generation. .
First vacuum furnace producing aviation alloys launched in Russia
STUPINO, Moscow region. April 9 (Interfax-AVN) – Russian Prime Minister Viktor Zubkov attended the launch on Wednesday of a unique furnace belonging to the Stupino Metallurgical Company, which is designed to produce the heat-resistant alloys to be used in fifth-generation aircraft.
“It’s a modern furnace, which is unprecedented in Russia,” Zubkov said commenting on the event in a meeting devoted to the production of special steels and alloys in Stupino, Moscow region.
The British-produced vacuum furnace was put into operation as part of the plan to modernize the aluminum and heat-resistant complexes of the plant. The furnace has a capacity of 2.5 tonnes. This new generation furnace is intended for producing high-purity alloys, which have never been produced in Russia before.
star49OK, the article in FT overestimated with 1 billion pounds. But the same article said that this is not the entire deal, since “missiles, other parts and initial support” are estimated at about the same amount as the initial package. Maybe they exagereate here too with 1 billion, but still is a huge price.
hrere is the price from official on official publication. $120m price per copy. that is export price. very close to Slot array powered F-16. Just convert F-16E price into today prices. It is alteast $200m intoday prices.
http://www.arabnews.com/?page=1§ion=0&article=101313&d=18&m=9&y=2007
JEDDAH, 18 September 2007 — Saudi Arabia has signed a 4.43 billion pound ($8.86 billion) agreement with Britain to purchase 72 Eurofighter Typhoon planes, a spokesman at the Ministry of Defense and Aviation announced yesterday
“The two governments on Tuesday (Sept. 11) signed the contract for the acquisition of 72 planes valued at 4.43 billion pounds,” the Saudi Press Agency quoted the spokesman as saying. Saudi Arabia will pay the same price per jet as those sold to the Royal Air Force, he said
.
star49Yes, your logic is flawed. First off, the Lavi example is ludicrous, as it has never been conclusively proven that any airframe ever went to China, let alone a complete set of documents. Secondly, even if that was true, by the time China would’ve gotten ahold of either item, the Lavi was a dead project and was never to my knowledge integrated with the Python 4 anyway. So Lavi knowledge is completely irrelevant in the scope of the Python 4 argument.
It is completely relevant. China/India were in look out for technology. If python 4 provided some kind of edge they would have either directly bought it or used its tech to build there own. Israel was in deep finance trouble throught the 90s. Pythons are very close airframe wise.
Oh, so now you admit that economic factors might be involved in defense transactions? Perhaps using the R-73 was cheaper than purchasing and integrating the Python 4.
When you buying in thousands right into 21s centruy economic factors hardly matters. both India/China/malaysia had money to buy and integrate Western avionics into flankers. economics simply does not make part in some thing as cheap as WVR missiles.
Just because one nation buys a product does not in any way automatically infer that the product is superior to other comparable systems. There are many other factors that your statement of “If P4 was better than R-73. India/China would have bought it” does not take into account. If you were right that’d mean that the F-15 is superior to the EF-2000 as South Korea bought it.
All nations chose the best bang for the money at the time of chosing when all things being equal. Rafale/EF are still underdevloped compared to F-16E. EF does not even have its own BVR missile. F-16E is powerd by 14.8 tons engine, CFT, AESA, more than 10 tons underwing.
star49Did you ever think that perhaps they weren’t offered the Python 4 at that point? Or that they didn’t wish, at that point, to fund integration with their aircraft? American pressure might have precluded any Python 4 sale to China as well, as it did with the Phalcon AEW&C system. Your logic is completely flawed. Otherwise, the F-16 has to be a better aircraft than both the EF-2000 and Rafale as it was chosen by the UAE, right?
Nope. My logic is not flawed. Entire Lavi went to China in 90s. AWACS deal only cancelled in late year 1999-2000. It is logical that Chinese had gleaned enough information in years before that. It was Russian who were delaying availability of IL-76 for AWACS conversion for 3 years alteast.
When F-16E was chosen euro was only 80% of dollar value. now dollar is 60% of euro. more than 100% swing.
and than u add AESA, falcon edge EW suite, more powerful engine,Amraam. Just in todays prices F-16E is worth $160m aircraft. (there is no inflation factor).
EF cannot match F-16E price even in 2007 considering Suadi deal.
star49The Python 4 was designed to better the R 73. Knowing the importance of WVR fight for Israeli AF, it’s hard to believe that the P 4 isn’t far better than R 73…
If P4 was better than R-73. India/China would have bought it in thousands like R-73. they bought alot stuff in 90s. u can include SA to it also after comparing R-73 to there own developments. Israel simply dont have that big intellectual resource.
star49-The F 15 C doesn’t need a 29.000 lb. engine because its 23.000 lb is more than enough (F 15 is 12,5 t vs. Su 27 with 17 t, so the F 15 has a better T/W ratio);
-The F 15 E had 29.000 lb engine from 1992…
-I don’t know why do you bring into discution the R 27? it’s a SARH missile, inferior to the AMRAAM (operatioanl from 1992);
-As for HMS/R 73, it’s true that only from 2003 USAF had something comparable (in fact better);
-About the 10 wing points: the F 15E has 12, with 11,5 tons of weaponry –the Flanker can’t compete; as for F 15C in its AA role — it doesn’t need more than it has;
-The Flanker had indeed superb aerodynamics…
F-15C is not 12 tons. u consider Maximumtalke off weight with 6 tons of internal fuel. F-15C needs external fuel tanks to produce any decent range.
SARH missle does not make automatically inferior. R-27 is longer range and faster missile than earlier R-77/AIM-120. Similar is case with R-33S.
F-15E came very late in numbers. I doubt F-15E can carry 11.5tons without degrading airframe life. Just look at 38.8tons Maximum take off of Su-30MK. vs 30tons of Su-27SK. Flanker has alot of upgrade potential.
star491) You must be very naïve to think that you will ever know the true incomes of say Mr. Putin. Besides who said he’s the only man in charge? Do you know who works with him in Kremlin?
do u think Putin and his ruling elite that poor that they need corrupiton money from making few dozen Sukhois? Putin created more than 90 World known Billionairs. just think about the unknowns. he thrown out hundreds of billions of dollars potential foreign investment. Russia is not China/India/Brazil that that few hundred billion foreign dollars can influence it. there is big difference. foreign money can boost Stock and real estate of country. u can make much more money by auctioning government land/IPOs of stocks to favorites. but apparently Putin does not need that money. he is simply too rich.
2) I probably know western government structure better then most, afterall I have written numerous essays on the subject.
I doubt you understand anything. there is big difference between knowing and understanding.
3) There is corruption in UK and in Canada, and in US. Now the difference in the level of corruption between UK and Russia is night and day in regards to the amount of money and people involved.
It is the perception of corruption not the level that makes difference. Small country like UK is $10trillion in debt with GDP completely depended on creating more debt. Isnt it some form of corruption?
http://money.cnn.com/2008/04/07/news/international/asia_gas/index.htm?postversion=2008040810
But so far Russia’s longstanding influence and hard power in the region gave them the edge in securing the recent Turkmenistan deal.
“The Russians have the military power,” said Ruppel. “We got played royally.”
Russia needs very strong military to protect its own wealth, secure pipelines and trade routes between countries. For same reason the need Aircraft carrier and nuclear icebreakers for extending the same logic to arctic and africa. u wont allow competitors cheap resources anywhere in the world.
star49how many years it will take to produce that extra 14 million bbl/day. Brazil also found 50B barrel near the coast but it will take a decade for them to produce it for themselves let alone for export. similar is the case for Arctic.
unless the world economy collapses and people start using bicycles forcast for energy is very bullish.
Sign In
