Nicolas10It’s clearly overhyped.
Some facts:Mica – only 23% heavier than Sidewinder.
Mica – frontal area (cross section) ~200cm2 – 58% more than Sidewinders (more drag)
AMRAAM – frontal area only 24% greater than Micas (drag shouldn’t be much bigger) – weight 44% greater than Micas.I suggest you draw the conclusions yourself.
Yes the conclusion is that european engineers seem to know their stuff much better than american ones.
Nic
Nicolas10stationary ground threat for a weapon with self targeting on final, or another sensor to give precise location, eg radar mapping for gps coords
and flat trajectory launch of a2a missile on a bearing, but please show me any other claim for its ability
Read the ******* link for ****’s sake! It’s FROM THALES and it states word for word that:
“Using sophisticated techniques, such as interferometry for high precision DOA and passive ranging, digital frequency memory for signal coherency and active phased-array transmitters for maximum effectiveness and covertness,”
Do you have an issue with the words PASSIVE RANGING?
but please show me any other claim for its ability
Another claim? Other than a statement from the manufacturer?
Damnit it’s not possible to be so thick!
Nicolas10It’s speculation, but spectra is just a self-defence jammer. Jammers degrade radars performance, but to degrade it by 50% signal has to be quite strong. Another thing is that AESA radars are hard very hard to jam.
They are, but keep in mind Rafale uses AESA jammers to jam it too. And if it’s being jammed the radar has to provide more power, enabling spectra to detect it better wouldn’t you think?
The point is: the Raptor can see Rafale from afar (over 100km) but Rafale can’t see the F-22 from that distance (if F-22 is not emiting etc.)
If the F22 isn’t emiting it won’t see the Rafale anymore than the Rafale will see the Raptor, and since the Raptor has no IRST it’s blind unless it turns its radar on or it feeds from other assets in the theater (which is the point of its philosophy anyway).
The question is (as I’m saying again and again and again)… can the Spectra detect the APG 77 emissions or not? If it can, then the Rafale will see the Raptor before the Raptors sees it, enabling it to take the initiative.
Consider one thing: how effective can little SPECTRA AESA antennas be when it comes to jamming big APG-77 antenna?
Do YOU know how effective Spectra is? Please do tell!
I know that AIM-120D IOC for the Raptor is 2016, but there is one difference between AIM-120D and Meteor – the first one is in production, and the second one is still in development.
And another thing is – Micas range is about 60km, and I think that would be for the the most optimal conditions – high speed, max altitude head on engagement. Mica is closer to Sidewinder than AMRAAM – 90 vs 110 vs 160kg.
The range of mica is stated > 60 km. How much more we don’t know. Unless you happen to know, then please do tell.
600 km/h difference. This is a big difference.
Why would the Rafale light up AB if he doesn’t know about the Raptor trying to sneak behind him? Does the Rafale have enough fuel to stay on AB ‘just in case’?
It will light up AB to get some speed or climb to higher alt for a lofted Mica launch, or if it needs to avoid detection or a missile. Why would it need to cruise at M1.8 at all times?
Oh and how would you suppose the Raptor would sneak behind the Rafale? Are you assuming that it can use it’s radar without triggering any alarm? That’s not LPI that’s NPI! And that brings up back to what I have been saying all along about the relative performance of APG77 and SPECTRA.
Nic
Nicolas10The Raptor will detect a Rafale much further away than 100km. The Rafale won’t detect the Raptor anywhere near the Meteor’s effective range.
Without jamming probably, with jamming you know this how? Besides you’re quoting me out of context. I was toying with exec’s idea that the Raptor would detect the Rafale with ECM at around 80/90km. I didn’t say it, he did.
And for all we know Spectra could detect the raptor from much further 😉
The -120D is already being purchased, and should be in the inventory shortly. The Meteor won’t be available till ~2015.
I’ll remind you of that argument next time you want to compare Rafale F3 and F35 😀
How long can the Rafale maintain M1.2 though? How far away can the Mica engage a target that’s on the Rafale’s 6 o’clock?
If the Raptor is going towards the rafale it doesn’t need to fly M1.2 very long before there is a merge 😉
Nic
Nicolas10other than BW who else said the mica has a 80k range
TMor doesnt think so, nor does the manufacture
The people at official website of the only Rafale operational squadron seem to think the range is over 80k.
http://www.ec17provence.org/armements.htm
Now didn’t I ask you nicely to stop posting to me?
Nicolas10would you like me to tell you where the ignore function is
It doesn’t work when you are not logged in unfortunately. And you still read the offending posts when they are quoted by someone else. Which is why it is useless for me to ignore you and jeessmo.
Anyway its in user CP, top left of the screen and then in edit&options.
Oh and one last link (from the manufacturer no less) so you will have to cut your BS about spectra not being capable of ranging a threat:
http://www.thalesgroup.com/Portfolio/Defence/Aerospace_Product_SPECTRA/?pid=1152
Using sophisticated techniques, such as interferometry for high precision DOA and passive ranging, …
Nicolas10Still – APG-77 jammed still should be able to track Rafale at ~50% normal ‘unjammed’ range – so give or take 80-90km. This is still outside Rafales engagement range.
Pure speculation as you hardly have any data to support your claim. But anyway, Meteor range is 100+ km, which was precisely my point. Especially if you paint the Rafale with your radar, as you would need to go towards it.
Another thing is – using jammer will give away Rafales position anyway…
And what is your point? You jam when a radar is painting you already, so it means you are already detected or going to be detected.
That said, the Rafale uses AESA antennas to jam directly towards the emitter. Minimising the chances of detection by other platforms.
Are we talking about future here? Meteor is still in developement and will be for another couple of years.
Wrightwing brought the 120D so it’s fair game to bring in the Meteor. Anyway the Mica has a range of 80km, which is quite close to the 80/90km range you have been quoting.
BS? What BS? Don’t you think that Raptor being able to cruise twice as fast as the Rafale won’t be able to sneak up from behind?
Twice as fast? Rafale can supercruise around M1.2 with AA load. Yes there is still a difference but not as big as one would be able to “circle” around the Rafale. And even if you could circle around and get on it’s back the Mica can be fired in the plan’s 180° anyway.
Besides why do you think the Rafale couldn’t light up AB?
Nic
Nicolas10you only show what you dont know
f-22 radar target acquisition was on page 3 of this topic////As for the “circling around” bs… well…///
this is a classic, can i put it in my signature as a quote from the unknowing
Would you be so kind to stop posting to me thanks.
Nicolas10This is true under normal circumstances, but against an LPI radar, I don’t think that you can take that for granted.
As I said, I think it all depends how Spectra would fare against the APG 77. Considering the effort put into it, and the fact that Thalès has also worked a lot on LPI radars (one of the reasons for going the PESA route among others), I trust them to know what they are doing, just like Northrop Grumman. And all it needs would be a reasonable bearing to cue OSF, if you can’t get a shot off directly.
Nic
Nicolas10Discussing 1on1 situation is pointless. Aircrafts aren’t flying alone, but at least in pairs.
In 2on2 situation one of the Raptors could be an ‘eye’ – using radar to track Rafales and distracting attention from another one – ‘shooter’. So, the shooter will fly silently, and might use high speed (supercruise) and altitude advantage to circle around Rafales and place himself on the best position to fire AMRAAMs.
ECM (AESA jamming) + Rafale’s (relatively) small RCS might mean that you can’t track it much outside Meteor range so it means the one active Raptor better hurry to find the Rafales and communicate firing solutions to its buddy.
I trust the Rafales would fly in wide formation so it’s not even certain it could locate both at the same time.
As for the “circling around” bs… well…
Nic
Nicolas10If the pilot knows a target is likely in a certain area, then the search can be much more efficient.
Which is why the combination of Spectra/OSF would prove useful. If Spectra gets just enough data to cue OSF to an approximate scan zone then the F22 can be detected.
If Spectra is still unable to give a range, then the F22 can be engaged at worst at the LRF distance (~35 km).
Nic
Nicolas10There’s another option- Spectra can detect APG-77, but not immediately, and with severely degraded performance, resulting in far less reaction time and/or less accurate passive targeting.
This still leaves the Raptor with a significant advantage.
I agree, which is why I said that the Rafale pilot may need to cue OSF onto the Raptor to get proper firing solution.
However I think this is offset by the fact that a good EWS would detect radar emissions at twice their useful range usually. The Raptor pilot would be very lucky to find the Rafale at the first scan, so it may have to look around for a while which would give Spectra some time to gather data.
As far as the missile advantages, the MICA does have a longer range than the -9M, however if the F-22’s IR reduction works well enough(or is able to approach from a vector, outside of the OSF field of view), and gets within SRAAM range, then the odds are much more even. Once the Raptor gets the -9X, it’s WVR lethality will be even that much higher. As for the Spectra’s effectiveness against the AIM-120C7/D, that’s all pure speculation. The Rafale pilot better hope that it works.
Well WVR the first one to gain a HMD will rule the other. I see that coming as soon as the Rafale finds an export customer.
But right now I stilll give it the edge thanks to Mica. Don’t forget that Mica can even be fired on the Rafale’s six on a Spectra contact! Even if the Raptor manages to come on the Rafale’s six, and lights it up very briefly with radar to get off an AMRAAM shot, the Mica IR can be fired backwards cued by Spectra alone! So if you don’t know the Spectra capabilities, you may want to fire through passive means only, which means the seeker of the AIM9M so far!
Oh and lastly the 120D should be compared to Meteor and not Mica as it’s going to come online around the same time. I only hope they will make a TV/IR version of it, or eventually a dual radar/IIR seeker.
Anyway I don’t think the Rafale stands no chance againt the Raptor in BVR. It’s got a few aces up its sleeves, but all very much depends on Spectra and APG 77, which means we will never know.
Nic
Nicolas10Presumably, at some point the Rafale would’ve had to send a signal to the source of the datalink, even if after that point it was in the Receive only mode, and the Raptor would be operating with support too, but both of these things exceed the scope of this mental exercise. If neither aircraft had any outside help, and it was strictly 1 vs 1, each aircraft relying on its onboard systems, what do you think the outcome would likely be?
Depends if Spectra detects the APG 77.
I would think the Rafales would use Spectra and OSF solely to look for the raptors…
So either:
– Spectra can detect the APG 77 (likely) and the Raptor gives away its whereabouts and the Rafale pilot can either fire a Mica IR with spectra alone, or if the spectr track isn’t neat enough it could cue OSF for a more accurate two-sensor track.
– Spectra can’t detect the APG 77 (less likely IMO, but possible) and the F22 has got a huge advantage because it can use radar while the Rafale pilot would be limited to OSF.
Then there is the question whether Spectra could defeat an AMRAAM. If it can then both fighters may be forced to WVR, and there the Mica IR is probably way better than a 9M.
Nic
Nicolas10If the Rafale was using L16, he’d give his position away to the Raptor. The OSF would only help if he knew where in the sky to look. Even if SPECTRA detects the brief bursts of radar from the Raptor, the Raptor will still see the Rafale long before being in OSF/MICA range.
Damnit you have already made the exact same reply in the old thread to which I already replied that the Rafale could use L16 in RECEIVE only mode when attempting to be discreet.
Nic
Nicolas10True there were two of them. BTW IIRC in the second instance I think that the greek used L16 while Rafales didn’t have it…F2 was still way off the final F3 capabilities, and obvisouly they couldn’t use spectra to it’s full efficiency.
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