KGBLHDs (as operated by France, Egypt, South Korea, etc.) & LPHs (e.g. HMS Ocean) all have lifts between the hangar & deck. How do you think they get helicopters between up to the deck?
Exactly. The deck coating is trivial, & even a ski-jump is a relatively easy change, but there are other features which they’d not have if they’d been intended from the start to operate F-35B.
How do you think they get helicopters between up to the deck?
I knew nothing about Japan except that their latest DESTROYER looks like an aircraft carrier.
Obviously I assumed that the whole designation of the ship was dishonest (including the heli part) to get around article 9 et al. Because the “helicopter destroyer” designation does not exist anywhere else. This ship is supposed to be a DESTROYER. I assumed that the ship would perform all of the duties of a traditional destroyer. And that provisions were built into the design to turn it into an aircraft carrier if need be. Traditional destroyers have a heli pad and hanger. So i didn’t put much stock in the heli part. Turns out, it is a heli carrier. So yeah. It would need functioning lifts.
If it is a heli CARRIER and article 9 doesn’t matter then why isn’t it designated a heli carrier ? Why don’t they just call it a carrier ?
KGBKGB, the news is pretty clear. The only thing that has been signed is an intent to purchase. I’m sure the Eurofighter consortium also thought they “had it in the bag”. As swerve said, with UAE, until contract is signed (or more accurately first payment recieved), it means squat. Anyone familiar with Gulf states and defense contracts has seen these announcements come and go, hence the healthy skepticism.
In the news item of the other thread, the only contract that was singed was this
“We’ve signed an agreement on industrial cooperation in the field of military engineering. This will enable us to push ahead with the fifth-generation-jet project, in which the UAE will participate.”
There was no discussion or anything signed about su 35’s.
But it does say this
The UAE has yet to finalize an order for multi-role fighter aircraft to compliment its Lockheed Martin F-16E/F Block-60 and Mirage 2000-9.
So no. The purchase of su 35’s was not clearly communicated on that thread at all as we can see in the comments. Nor was it clearly communicated in the news reports.
KGB
KGBThe UAE has signed for the M-346, has made declarations of intent to buy various other things, & has expressed interest in everything under the sun.
It ain’t a deal until the contract is signed.
The contract is signed according to some sources. The UAE will take delivery of su 35’s. Hence the thread.
There is always going to be communication difficulty when people are looking for news on a deal between Russia and the middle east. There isn’t a lot of info out there.
Chemezov apparently did not offer any details about how many Su-35s the UAE has ordered or when the aircraft would be delivered.
KGBAn odd selection of countries, particularly when China does everything now. With few exceptions, you would just run down the current and near-future PLAAF/PLANAF inventory.
Now try building an air force using only the Southern Hemisphere.
China does everything with Russian engines. I’ll take the FGFA
KGBIt depends on how much strategic reach you want.. in which case your options might only be Chinese in many cases.. like for bombers
but i like:
fighters: FC-31 or J-20. it’s your only choice for 5th gen for now,
The FGFA counts for India
Front line I’d have 300 FGFA’s.
Lower end I’d have HAL Mig 29’s.
KGBDo we really need a separate thread for this? The Su-35 agreement was signed and announced with the joint development deal. We already have a thread for that, and the Su-35 deal was discussed already in that thread.
There is no mention of su 35 in the article posted.
And the buzz was around if the UAE would purchase Migs. There was one sentence in a post that says the UAE “expressed interest” in the su 35. Expressing interest and a done deal are totally different things.
Some people thought this. And they had legit reason for thinking it. But nope. This is a real deal
This agreement is a political plot to set pressure on the USA to sell the F-35; nothing more.
he notional ‘5th generation’ fighter is not happening anytime soon either.
With Rafales and F-16Es they do not need it that soon, either..
In any case, this UAE partnership doesn’t make a lot of sense on the face of it.
as I and others have suggested, the UAE is applying leverage as they did in the Typhoon/Rafale/F-18 negotiations.
This is already looking like a “China doesn’t need su 35’s” rerun. Get out the popcorn.
KGBsince were on the subject of right choices..
was the Thales twin island design the right choice over the BAE one? what do you guys think
is there any pics of the bae one ?
KGBThe Tomcat was almost too big and complicated and the Hornet is almost too small.
Any dedicated fanboy would like this talk with one of the top designers of the Tomcat
KGBIndeed !
I really don’t know why yet another new design and to admit I have the feeling besides the FC-31 – only if the PLA is interested or it will find soon a potent customer – none of these fifth generation ducklings will see the light of the day.
The TF-X will not materialise due to political and economic issues in Turkey, KFX will run out of money … and the Indian AMCA maybe 2135.Deino
I pretty much agree. Most of these projects are dreams. There hasn’t been a global financial crisis in a long time either. They are cyclical and we are way overdue for one. One that will effect everyone.
Even the F 35 will see huge cuts in the coming years. They talk about building 2500 of them but I doubt they will ever make more than 500 of them in the next 10 years.
KGBWhat does Japan monitoring the Chinese carrier have to do with this?
You said something to the effect that something significant would have to change internationally for Japan to consider making these carriers into fixed wing carriers.
“but that would be a significant change politically both domestically and internationally ”
If the rapid building and militerization of islands throughout the south China sea and the commissioning and building of 2 aircraft carriers isn’t a significant change internationally, then I don’t know what is.
Thr activities of China in the SCS is a blatant power move.
KGBIt was always a helicopter carrier. It’s function is as a ASW carrier (technically an ASW destroyer) with a disaster relief secondary mission. The Canberra class also “look” like carriers but are LHD with a secondary disaster relief mission (or the HMS Ocean for that case). It could, with modifications, operate F-35’s as could the Canberra class. That are not planned, for either as of now. Japan wasn’t trying to “fool” anyone, it is a helicopter carrying ASW destroyer with a lineage in JSDF history stretching back to the Haruna class.
The Izumo class also can carry troops. How would you rate the Mistrals? Looking like an fixed wing aircraft carrier is one thing, functioning like one is a different matter. As of now, the Izumo class are what Japan designed them as: helicopter ASW destroyers that has multirole capability to provide disaster relief, amphibious warfare, and flagship duties.
If they planned on converting the class into true STOVL carriers from the outset, there wouldn’t be design compromises like; limited hangar space, lack of aircraft handling equipment, and an elevator amidship. Compare to the Cavour in above diagram as she was always intended to operate STOVL aircraft. In the future, it is possible that Japan could modify the class to operate a small number of F-35B’s. But it’s clear that was not the primary design driver.
At 248 meters and a beam of 38 meters, the vessel is larger than short take-off and vertical landing (STOVL) carriers operating in the Spanish and Italian navies. Likewise, its fully-loaded displacement of 24,000 tonnes and 7.3 meter draft put the Izumo class in a category similar to that of the Invincible class carriers commissioned by the Royal Navy.
The sister ship is of this class is named the JS Kaga. Apparently it is named after the IJN Kaga. The IJN kaga originated as a Tosa-class battleship but was converted into an aircraft carrier due to the Washington Naval Treaty. It took part in the surprise attack on Pearl Harbor in 1941 and served with the Imperial Japanese Navy until scuttled at the Battle of Midway in 1942.
KGBNot sure what you are trying to say here. The vessel was designed and constructed as a helicopter carrier including deck elevators. The requirements to operate helos match very closely with operating fixed wing aircraft.
My question was whether the elevators are rated for the weight of the F-35B.
As for why they don’t operate F-35B, the vessel is designated as a Helicopter Destroyer and the intent is to operate it as such. Doesn’t mean at some future date they couldn’t start using F-35B but that would be a significant change politically both domestically and internationally. China already has problems with the vessel in its current form…
The vessel was designed and constructed as a helicopter carrier
So you don’t think that there was any intent for it to become an actual carrier and zero consideration was given to fixed wing aircraft in the design. Basically, you take them at their word.
but that would be a significant change politically both domestically and internationally
China: Japan Scrambled Fighters To Admire China’s Carrier | The …
dailycaller.com/…/china-says-its-carrier-is-so-beautiful-that-japan-couldnt-help-but-co…
Japan Spots Chinese Aircraft Carrier Passage in East China Sea …
https://sputniknews.com/asia/201612251048976041-japan-china-aircraft-carrier/
Dec 25, 2016 – Japan’s Maritime Self-Defense Force caught sight of the Chinese aircraft carrier
KGBElevators are needed for helos too or did you think they worked on them on the deck?
I thought it was constructed to allow for it to be retrofitted into an aircraft carrier in the future. I didn’t know that the retrofit (fully functional elevator ect) is already done.
The idea that sub components like elevators are fully functional makes it more ridiculous than I previously thought.
And now I don’t believe that the deck isn’t properly coated to allow for F 35B’s.
KGBIzumo’s elevators shouldn’t be an issue. They plan to operate V-22 off the Izumo. The thermion coating could be applied if Japan so wished. There are no technical issues (besides a lack of a ski jump) that would limit the Izumo from operating the F-35B, other than smallish hangar. The political question makes it unlikely that either Izumo or Kaga will operate F-35’s in the near future
So this Japanese flat top has functioning elevators and everything eh ? I didn’t know that.. Why didn’t they just change the law slightly and just be honest about it..
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