RimmerIt is already flying with an American engine and has an option for another American engine as well. Even the EJ200 won’t be much of a problem.
We will definately have to wait and see on that front.
Rimmer———————————————————————-
1. Nothing is certain about any project. Of all the issues you could have picked as a reason for potential LCA MK2 delays you picked a weak one. The engine issue will most probably be a non issue once the final choice is made.
2. There is nothing official about it thats all.
1) I was using that as an example, I am no aircraft engineer, but imagine the process of fitting a European engine into an Indian designed aircraft may throw up some problems.
2) “In a written Parliamentary answer, he told MPs that “The procurement process for the Joint Strike Fighter remains at a very early stage. We have not taken the final investment decision and at this stage cannot, therefore, confirm overall numbers or the in-service date.”
The statement is just the latest in a series of comments and incidents that have raised concerns over the future of the JSF. In April Davies refused to tell Defencemanagement.com whether all 150 JSFs would be purchased. He also refused to rule out a Harrier life extension beyond 2018, leading to speculation that the MoD may take this route over purchasing the JSF.”
There is no way the UK is going for the full 150 JSFs.
RimmerDo keep up. This claim is based on a misunderstanding. The RN intends to operate one carrier & one LPH at any given time. When both carriers are operational, one will operate as a carrier, the other as an LPH. They are designed to be able to fulfil both roles. There will be no conversion.
This has been policy for several years. Anyone who has any familiarity with the CVF programme (i.e. not the journalist who wrote that ridiculous article) knows that.
Apologies, what I meant to imply was that irrespective of the hull, one will be a Chopper carrier/LPH. Surely this will require a reduction in RN’s JSF requirment.
RimmerThey already made CGI’s eh, looks like the Swedes are serious about this one.
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In that case we cannot be sure about anything can we. No guarantees you will wake up tomorrow. At a certain level most things in this world deals with chance and probability, and for the LCA MK2 the engine of choice being integrated without costly delays is extremely probable.
Guardian says one is being offered to India. I will wait till there is an official confirmation on its status.
1)That was my point, nothing is “certain” when it comes to this project.
Almost every major jet fighter porject has had engine problems.
JSF, Eurofighter, JF-17.
2) JSF numbers in UK are being cut, and that was the orginal point I was making.
Rimmer1. I am saying people should be allowed to discuss sensitive issues here in the IAF thread as well rather than being paranoid and calling each other trolls etc.
2. You are not getting me, Integration of an engine GE F404 and F404 IN into the LCA went smoothly. I think the LCA MK2 engine choice will go smooth as well.
3. It is not yet decided that the UK is only going to have one carrier.
1) Agreed!
2) As mentioned, we simply cannot be sure. For instance if Eurojet is chosen and fitted it may prove to be totally unsuited to Indian conditions. It was designed for European warfare. This is just an example.
3) One carrier is being changed into a Helicopter Carrier as per the article, so will not require JSFs.
RimmerA capacity of 12 planes per year is more than enough.
This is the egg and hen debate, there is no physical or monetary problem in ramping up capacity, it will be a welcome step as it will increase employment for the vast number of engineers and technical diploma holders that are appearing on the radar faster than the economy can absorb them. What is lacking are orders for the investment to be made.
Wait indeed, however one can discuss (over tea or on the internet) the points that might make the AF take the decision, no harm in that.
Well until the plane retires, indeed one has to wait.
I am of the opinion that only when in service for a long time, a military equipment can be labelled a success or failure. No use labelling a huge disappointment and under-performer a success just because its mass produced.
At this point with the 20 planes on order and the tender for some 99 engines under way (with two applicants for fulfilling the tender), it is inevitable that the LCA program will churn out between 100~150 planes, however its only when the plane performs in service that the plane can be called a success.
The program however might be successful if it is able to churn out enough planes to justify the initial investment.
12 planes a years is enough!? That means it would take 17 years to make 200 planes!!!!
That would not be able to cover the amount of aircraft the IAF is retiring (even assuming SU-30 and MRCA are ordered)
Also, attrition may take 2-3 planes off this number a year.
Agreed, many factors define success I suppose. I stand corrected.
RimmerRimmer, the support extended to LCA by IAF and Arjun by IA are beyond comparison. I will find out more but for now this.
Check out this link
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/India/File-Minister-hints-at-sabotage-in-Arjun-tank-trials/articleshow/2980896.cms
Thanks, good link. I was not aware of the feuding between DRDO and Army.
RimmerEven if it doesn’t comes to say 400+ or even 200+ it can still be a success, for laying a base from which new fighters can be designed. There are many research and development projects conducted across the world though not products produced in mass has been termed as the pillar for future.
Wouldn’t that too a success? Or should all the credit go to the reserach teams down the line & time while the current one takes all the criticism?JMT
That raises a good point, I suppose success coudl also be defined by the stated end goals of a project. If LCA’s end goald was a technology demonstrator then it may well turn out to be a “success” eventually. I was under the impression it was a MIG-21 replacement. Whereby “success” would be defined as it becoming teh main Light Fighter of the IAF. This surely would require a 200+ airframe order right?
Rimmer1) I dont understand this. You are saying its not fair to have debates in “sensitive” Indian issues?
2) Engine problems were a major issue with Kavari right?
3) Despite what the exact problems were, the fact remains Arjun was backed by the government and Army yet was not fully adopted into service. The point I am making is that this could well happen with LCA.
4) “The decision to have only one new aircraft carrier will cut the number of JSFs to be flown by RAF squadrons from 138 to about 50, saving £7.6 billion. At current prices, the aircraft will cost close to £90m each, but this could rise to more than £100m”
RimmerNirav
This debate is about LCA not JF-17.
You can choose to contribute or you can Troll.
Either way, I am in no mood to answer blatent flames, especially when the level of debate with others is of a much higher standard.
Last post to you.
Now where is that ignore button…..
RimmerI stated only the things i saw from the links you posted, so yes nothing new.
But its not 8 planes, its 8-12 planes (from your link),
Why would they increase the capacity without receiving order for more planes?What attrition?
Yes that is the primary issue, let us wait for what decision the AF takes regarding orders for more MK-I version, no use imagining they will or will not order them.
There is plenty of room for delays, in my opinion there will be huge delays, however you should see that a 800 million dollars (for around 100 engines) worth of contract is in place, the government and the InAF are not kidding around.
Edit: only some engines need to be integrated into modified MK2 prototypes, rest will be simply produced in a HAL production line.
What did you mean by a successful program?
Attrition. When inducted some LCA will crash over there lifetime.
Yes, you are right, capacity will have to be ramped up, and right now this has not been done. Until it has been donw, no large orders can be filled by HAL.
Agreed, you will have to wait and see what decision the IAF make, This is the point I have been trying to make.
I think “successful” will probably be defined as induction into teh air force in signifcant numbers. The IAF has 800+ combat aircraft and ordered 40 LCA so far. I am sure we can agree we still need to wait to see if this is a “success”…
RimmerDirect Fit means it will fit into the airframe with little or minor modifications to the engine/airframe.
The chance of this changing is very less, because IAF really needs a cheap fighter in numbers to replace the MiG 21s. The LCA has full support of the GOI as well.
Has anyone of them said they are cutting numbers ? NO. They would probably cut on other things and not that. If there are any rethinks it has to do with financial situation in the respective countries rather than technical issues.
OK, first of all to both of you. Thanks for keeping this civil and respectful, its a debate others on this site can learn from.
I direct fit it maybe, but as we both know, installing a new engine will require much more work then just fitting it into the airframe and may throw up all sorts of other problems.
The chance is still there. The Indian Army desperatly needs more modern tanks and went for more T-90s rather then homegrown Arjuns. This may yet be teh case with the LCA is the IAF end up not being happy with it.
UK has already cut numbers as have US forces. You are wrong on this count.
Rimmer1. Both the Engines shortlisted are a direct fit to the LCA. There will be a redesign of the inlets apart from that structural changes will be minimum.
2. Pledged support is not ordered. Many countries have pledged support to the F 35, they have not yet ‘ordered’ it.
3. What ? I have not seen anyone involved with the F 35 saying they have any questions about the project. The real worry about it is cost over-runs increased unit price etc.
1) So both GE and Eurojet have already integrated the engines as tested them on the LCA!?
2) Exactly. We are in complete agreement here. Until an order is placed its just a verbal pledge. Which can be changed.
3) Then you really need to read up on the F-35 I ma afraid. I dont have time to educate you, but Google will help. UK, Denmark and others are having doubts and are looking at cutting back numbers. Due to both technical and financial issues. I am sure teh programme will succeed with US backing though.
RimmerOkie-Dokie, here is the thing in very simple and logical format:-
The current capacity of 8-12 aircrafts per year is more than enough to meet the order for 20 planes with IOC capability by 2012.
India is running a contract to buy 99 engines, the 99 engines will be used in something called planes. The InAF is part of the team that came out with this tender.
MK-I version flies on a GE engine, and 20 of these planes have completed the IOC stage
http://www.drdo.com/dpi/ADA.pdfIOC definition: The state achieved when Military Capability is available in its minimum usefully deployable form. The date of achievement is the ISD.
In-Service Date (ISD). In-Service Date is declared when the military capability provided by the system is assessed as available for operational use in its minimum usefully deployable form (IOC).
http://www.aof.mod.uk/aofcontent/tactical/randa/content/glossary.htmADA expects the InAF to buy more MK-I versions.
What do you mean by a “successful program”?
Thanks for the above, but you have not stated anything new.
8 planes a year maybe good for a 20 planes IOC by 2012, but anything more? Its hardley enough to cover attrition.
ADA “expects” the IAF to buy more I am sure. Lets wait and see what the IAF do.
Until the 99 engine are selected and integrated, would you not agree there is room for delays/problems?
RimmerOK One last time.
MK1 already has an engine its the GE F404 IN. MK2 will get either the EJ200 or GE F414.
It has already so has the Defense Minister.
Like we are pledging support to the PAK FA. Like many around the world are counting on the F 35.
I get the engine thing. A engine has still not been chosen or integrated in MK2. That is a fact right? Exactly. I thought so.
So the Defence Minister and IAF have pledged support for a 100+ plane order? Can you give me the link to the order placed. I cannot find this.
Exactly, many still question if the F-35 will be teh major success it is hoped to be. The difference is they have integrity to admit this….
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