I hope it’s not as naff an episode as the one with the Spitfires. In fact I have to say that the seires was great when Christopher Eccleston and especially David Tennent played the Doctor, but since then, this current guy is lame and dull, and his sidekicks are damned annoying, especially Amy bloody pond and Riversong. And the scriptwriting has been terrible. All the talk in the recent series of the doctor going to die, I was assuming the BBC was going to cancel the show for good. They need to bring back their old writers and get a new bunch of actors.

As for Just Jane, it will be good to see this aeroplane appear on our screens.

Out of curiosity, where is the haka learned? I guess the Maori learn it from a young age as it is a tradition; but how do the non Maori members of the All Blacks learn it?

Not that I want to learn it myself… I have just enough rhythm to be able to walk properly!

Rich, the haka these days, like many other Maori traditions including the language, is taught in most schools across the country. Most secondary schools seem to have their own distictive haka that they learn, and will perform at inter-school sporting events to spur their team on, or at other functions, etc. Anyone and everyone who wants to these days can usually learn it at school.

Maori also learn their traditions on the Marae (the cultural meeting place of their tribe where all the traditions are passed down and ceremonies, festive occasions, funerals (tangi) etc are held.

Also with learning the language there’s the option for pre-schoolers to be immersed in Maori language kindergarten type of things called Kohanga Reo, which gives them a grounding in the language. I doubt they learn the haka that young though.

Members of our Army, Air Force and Navy also learn the haka these days and each service has its own Kapa Haka group who perform at special ceremonies, etc. But from what I gather, unlike my days, they all (from whaetever racial background) seem to get taught it and perform a haka on their graduation day nowadays.

The All Blacks have special training sessions in the haka, just as they do in every other aspect ofthe game. Many of the All Blacks are hard core into it – and I don’t just mean the Maori members. Watch the likes of Ali Williams when he performs the haka, and even Dan Carter, they really put their souls into it.

These days most school rugby teams have their own school haka as I said bt you might be interested that NZ and the Pacific are not the only places this happens. Most of the College football teams in the USA have their own haka now, big burley Americans in pads and helmets perform a haka before their games all over the USA these days.

We still do not understand why you, as a non Maori, are fighting so hard in their corner?

I am defending the haka because it is a national tradition in New Zealand that is respected hugely by all of our nation’s people from whatever background, and is almost sacred to many, yet it has been roundly criticised and denegrated here in a rather offensive way by those ignorant to how New Zealanders feel about it. I am not standing up for Maori culture or Maori people, far be it for me to do that although in the right circumstances I would, but as i have tried to explain, as has nuumannn, the haka transcends racial distinction these days and is part of New Zealand as a whole. Because I am a New Zealander, I am proud of my country, and our traditions and national culture. So when I see some of the things written here which I clearly diagree with, then why not offer my opinion?

The All Blacks are not the only people who perform the haka, although you as a foreigner may only ever see them doing it. But it’s a widely seen part of life here in NZ and we have grown accustomed to it and learned to respect it. It seems you really have little idea of what it really is all about, and from the attitudes displayed here have little interest in learning.

Or, is the relationship between NZ white folk and the Maori a little better respected than Oz and the Aborigine?

Two completely different countries, cultures, subjects and kettles of fish. New Zealanders are not Australian. Many English don’t seem to realise this so for the benefit of those who don’t – we are completely seperate. I have never been there so it is not for me to comment on the state of race relations in that country, but from what I have learned from reading, learning and listening, the way that white Australia interacts with the native Australians, and vice versa, is completely, utterly and totally different from any situation here in New Zealand and has been since day one of colonisation.

I am by no means saying that race relations here are perfect as they are not, and there are certainly a lot of things in Maori culture I disagree with or do not like. But then you’ll find that with any culture, there are things about the English that irk me sometimes though generally I think they’re fantastic, most of them.

But believe it or not when you remove the radicals, politicians and rednecks on all sides, most average kiwis from any racial background get on pretty well together side by side.

One can never deny that English is indeed the finest language in the World.
Others of course have 100% right to speak what they like, but they need English also.

I don’t recall saying anything against the English language, ever. It’s the only language I choose to speak, read and write fluently, and it comes in quite handy sometimes. My beef was you stated that the haka pre-dated language. There’s just no logic in that.

Apart from the fact that, as you said, We English / Brits have a problem with other nations. Well, some do, others just know that most nations once ruled by GB and threw us out, have now failed. The Empire was “Ripped apart at the seams” I saw somebody post…..well, their loss entirely.

New Zealand is still part of the British Commonwealth and we still have Queen Elizabeth II as our Sovereign, and God Save The Queen is stil our National Anthem. But we are ever increasingly diversifying away from the old British colonial mould that shaped the country originally and becoming more and more our own individual nation, New Zealand. Part of that is, as well as retaining our much valued and loved tradition and heritage from the past (inherited mostly from Britain and Europe) we also embrace our own culture that is uniquely from right here in the shakey isles. One part of that is the haka, it is ours and it is part of us as a nation.

That is what I have tried to get across, you don’t have to be born into a specific race or tribe to embrace it as part of your culture. Surely you must see that, we in NZ are a multi-cultural society with loads of cross-overs in all directions but we are all New Zealanders at the end of the day, and we all live alongside each other so cannot help be influenced by our neighbours who do things a bit differently. Many of the influences are great, others are less welcome, but that is what makes up a functioning society.

Do you not have that in modern British culture? Are things not adopted or influenced from those around you in Great Britain who come from different backgrounds than the average Anglo-Saxon? Are things like a curry night, a kebab, lager, and soccer not great British traditions – all brought there by immigrants or those Brits who adpoted them when they were abroad? Yet they’re still part of your life and you’re comfortable with most of them. Life is a tapestry, and is complex, and you make what you want of it. Trying to avoid the influence of others is avoiding the opportunity to learn and grow and experience life, and you’ll have a very sorry, dull existence.

So, one typo and I can’t spell, fine.

Or count? There were at least two spellings as Mauri, and I decided to nip it in the bud before you continued forming a habit. If both were pure accident, I apologise.

I still object to the Haka because it is positive discrimination. Allowing a “Non White” cultural episode to be endured every game, they dare not ban it for fear of being called racist.

You don’t like the haka because it was not inventd by the whites, and it is therefore racist?

I think that there is more than a hint of truth in your last sentence. More to the point – it should be said openly and without the threat of accusations of racism. For years now, I’ve thought that there is more than a hint of cringing subservience to the idea that most ethnics are hard done by and require a rather patronising policy of ego massage.

Whilst trying to take in this theory of John’s, I decided to look up the meaning of the word “ethnic” in the Oxford English Dictionary. As I thought it says “Of a racial group.”

Well the All Blacks this year have had caucasian New Zealanders who know doubt have blood from vaying racial backgrounds such as English, Scottish, Irish, Welsh, German, etc. There have also been full and part-Maori members, Tongans, Fijians, Samoans, I think even one from even Niue performing the haka. So that description doesn’t apply as it is not related to one racial group.

So he must mean the second OED explanation which is “resembling the peasant clothes of primitive people”. Ah yes, that’ll be it. You’re quite right PeeDee, English is the “finest language in the World.” The OED explains all: the All Blacks did slightly resemble the falling apart peasant clothes of the primitive English team’s ‘away’ strip.

I still don’t see what that has to do with it though.

Many ethnic people that I know, some of whom I call friend, are bewildered and in some cases affronted by the fawning and demeaning attitudes shown to them by the majority.

It must be their peasant clothes I guess?

You might as well stop while you’re so far behind PeeDee, You come across as a complete twit with your statements.

Mauri? You cannot even spell Maori yet you think you’re an expert in their culture?

Captain Rangiataahua Kiniwe Royal was a remarkable man by the sound of things. He enlisted in 1917 and served in NZ and overseas in WWI and till 1919. On the 25th of November 1919 he re-enlisted and was appointed OC of B Company of the newly formed Maori Battalion.

As well as the Military Cross at 42nd Street, Crete, he was later awarded a Bar to the MC for action at Gazala. He was also wounded in that action. Following this he was ordered home and ended up training more men for the 28th (Maori) Battalion. He had two sons who also served in WWII, one in the RNZAF and the other in the last reinforcements of Maori Battalion.

between the wars and after discharge in 1944 Rangi Royal worked in the Maori Affairs Department of Government and eventually becoming Controller of Maori Social and Economic Welfare. No doubt a well respected man with a lot of mana. He died in 1965.

I am going to rejoin this conversation because by pure chance I just found the following passage in a book I am reading, called Mates and Mayhem, compiled by Lawrence Watt, in a chapter written by NZ Army veteran Alf Voss, who was on Crete serving at this point as part of 20th Battalion, 2nd Division, 2NZEF.

Alf wrote:
“At daybreak some bright spark found an abandoned British officers’ mess. Tinned peaches and cream were very welcome, although they didn’t really help an empty stomach that much. How we longed for a tasty sausage or two! We had not long finished when the air overhead became alive with Spandau and mortar fire.
Rangi Royal, a tall, dark Maori Battalion captain from the Fielding area, then stood up at the top of the ridge, held his revolver in the air and shouted, “Men of the 28th Battalion, fix bayonets and follow me.” The affect was amazing. We heard haka, loud enough to scare both friend and foe. Then everyone, not just the maori Battalion, followed him down from 42nd Street in a charge that pushed the Germans back 1000 yards. The Germans fired a little , then just took off. Quite a few were killed. I said to the platoon commander, “It’s not really a bayonet charge,” as everyone was firing at the fast retreating Germans and never gotthe chance to bayonet any of them. Royal’s status shot up amongst the whole expeditionary force after this battle.”

Rangi Royal was awarded the military cross for leading the charge.

Paul, elements of the Gurkhas served as part of the 2nd New Zealand Division and the new Zealand Corps in Italy, so the New Zealanders and Gurkhas made a formidable force together.

PeeDee, I suggest you read this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haka

I have no idea what on earth you meant by “When the spoken word was established, stuff like the Haka was laughed at….be it right or wrong.”

The haka relies upon the spoken word as its most dominant part. Do you think they were silent haka before the English arrived, and the missionaries educated them how to speak??

What happened to the BBMF’s Mk II Spitfire? Is it no longer flying?

Why is AB910 ‘out of bounds for filming’? Owner’s personal choice? Or something else going on?

I agree James, I’d rather cgi Me109E’s than seeing Buchons again, even though Buchons are cool in themselves.

Isn’t there also a Bob Stanford Tuck film in production? Will we see two newe films with the Battle of Britain as the theme in the near future?

Out of interest, how many Mk I or II Spitfires are flying in the UK now? Is it three? And how many Mk V’s? Also how many Hurricanes?

With decent CGI you could have Defiants, CR42’s, Me110’s, Dornier 17’s, Ju88’s, etc all on screen making it much more interesting than just Spitfires and Buchons.