MSR777Firstly, I’m sure that no member on here would deny the Egyptian people’s right to a free and democratic society. As I see it, the west needs to play this very carefully indeed. For a long time, Mubarak has been seen by very many Egyptians as ‘cosying up’ with regimes that perceive Egypt as nothing more than an instrument, cynically used to further their own agendas. However, the game is now up, and its the ordinary guy in the street that has decided that, and he’s taking action accordingly. These people on the streets are not concerned with the peace treaty with Israel, how many gratis fighter planes, tanks and helicopters have been supplied by ‘well wishers’ both in the west and other countries, nor wether or not this country or that one gets to hang on to their military ‘installations’ on their soil. Vast swathes of the population are excluded from the fantastic economic growth that is so loudly trumpeted by Mubarak and his allies, both domestic and foreign. But this growth has not been allowed to trickle down to the ordinary Egyptian in the street, many of whom have to survive on around $2 a day! Hence these people are more concerned with the basic human rights to things such as jobs, food and drink that they can actually afford, modern and available healthcare, things that we in the west take for granted. The west, and indeed some Arab states, are perceived by many Egyptians as being complicit in the circumstances that they now find themselves in.
As I see it, we in the west and others have ended up with the Egypt that we deserve. If this all ends up with the population turning to islamist parties, but I don’t think that will happen, then we have to accept that we are in no small way to blame. The Egyptians are an outward looking, proud, and industrious people, with a great history stretching back a millennia, it behooves us to treat them accordingly, we do otherwise at our peril.
MSR777Firstly, I’m sure that no member on here would deny the Egyptian people’s right to a free and democratic society. As I see it, the west needs to play this very carefully indeed. For a long time, Mubarak has been seen by very many Egyptians as ‘cosying up’ with regimes that perceive Egypt as nothing more than an instrument, cynically used to further their own agendas. However, the game is now up, and its the ordinary guy in the street that has decided that, and he’s taking action accordingly. These people on the streets are not concerned with the peace treaty with Israel, how many gratis fighter planes, tanks and helicopters have been supplied by ‘well wishers’ both in the west and other countries, nor wether or not this country or that one gets to hang on to their military ‘installations’ on their soil. Vast swathes of the population are excluded from the fantastic economic growth that is so loudly trumpeted by Mubarak and his allies, both domestic and foreign. But this growth has not been allowed to trickle down to the ordinary Egyptian in the street, many of whom have to survive on around $2 a day! Hence these people are more concerned with the basic human rights to things such as jobs, food and drink that they can actually afford, modern and available healthcare, things that we in the west take for granted. The west, and indeed some Arab states, are perceived by many Egyptians as being complicit in the circumstances that they now find themselves in.
As I see it, we in the west and others have ended up with the Egypt that we deserve. If this all ends up with the population turning to islamist parties, but I don’t think that will happen, then we have to accept that we are in no small way to blame. The Egyptians are an outward looking, proud, and industrious people, with a great history stretching back a millennia, it behooves us to treat them accordingly, we do otherwise at our peril.
MSR777Thanks John, for leaving so many great tunes behind.
RIP:(
MSR777Thanks John, for leaving so many great tunes behind.
RIP:(
MSR777Ditto my last post:)
MSR777Not that I am biased in any way:D but that IF Il62M is lovely! The ‘Red Square’ livery looks good on that Viscount, or any of the BEA types of the time.
MSR777Yes they do, they have about 12 Q400s, 2 Dash 8 100s, and 16 Airbus 320s. That’s what it was when I was out there.
A mere shadow of what it was.:(
MSR777Lovely shots Neil. Visions of aeronautical beauty;)
MSR777lovely stuff….. have been on a G550, you don’t feel like even going in a business class seat when you have been on one of those. 😀
You lucky beast! I have done a round trip from Stansted to Casablanca on a Lear. It was a slum compared to a Gulfstream:D
longshot, All Gulfstreams are, in my very biased opinion, beautiful. But I do have a very soft spot for the G 1s and 2s.
Peter, a great trio of pics:D
MSR777The big operational question is are they able to buy fuel at preferential prices ?
While in their ‘home territories’ is there a preferential price for aviation fuel that they enjoy that gives them an operational advantage and if so they simply buy in the staff to provide the customer service and pay the flying crew attractive packages and they are in a position of strength?
Possibly from a western business perspective frightening but true.
Sadly this has happened to many developed country businesses and industries. Only yesterday at a London Stock Exchange led talk and Q&A we shared similar thoughts that the increased luxury/standard of living (I call laziness) of the developed west has led to the ease of buying commodities and services from developing countries and has resulted in a vast depletion of local jobs.
I can add nothing to that, well put.
MSR777MSR777Well, of course, we would all like to think that is the case, but I suppose one man’s adverse personal comment is another man’s strongly expressed opinion. Either way I fear this thread is going the way of the previous one where old Cloud9 is at the crease on his own, so I’ll retire back to the pavilion and leave others on the field.
And that would be a great loss to the debate as a whole. As I said in my last post, everybody on here, irrespective of their position on this issue must realize that this dispute is part of something very much bigger. I sincerely mean no disrespect to any other member here, but when I see so much bickering and arguments about ‘how many cabin crew members there are, how much time to I get to say ‘hello’ to each passenger etc, it really makes me despair. cloud-9 I’m sorry, but I do question the importance of the factors that you highlight. To the vast majority of airline passengers today, with the possible exception of the first/business class people, those aspects are, by and large, of secondary importance. The rise of the God awful ‘LoCo’ carriers are testimony to that. Your own writings ‘ sod customers, sod a decent level of service’ etc would seem to illustrate my point, in this mega competitive age, these standards, so dear to you, and rightly so, have had their day for most travelers. Nowadays the bottom line is how cheaply can I get my bum on that seat and get to where I want to go , and thats it. When I first went into aviation in 1981, those type of attributes were still very important, sadly they are no longer so. That is an example of the passenger and their demands and priorities changing, any ‘legacy’ airline with the will to survive will be aware of this change and adapt accordingly. If the employees don’t cooperate, then IMO, all bets are off as to where theses airlines and their employees and managers will end up. For employees in those carriers with unchanged objectives and practices, it could well be the dole queue.:(
PMN, thanks for your comment, but there are members more capable than I.
cloud_9 I hope we will still be on speaking terms;)
MSR777There is no way that this member is going to pour vitriol on anyones parade, but I will say the following.
I feel that there is a very big elephant in the room here, and that is that due to the activities and policies of those who should know better, the economies of the western world are in one hell of a mess!, and as a result the the lot of the employer, employees and the unions has been transformed, none of us should under any illusion about this. Now, stripping away all the hysterical references to ‘sweat shops’ ‘exploitation’ ‘no strike clauses’ etc etc, I feel that there is one very important factor to be borne in mind. The balance of economic power has seismically shifted away from the US and the ‘west’ to powers farther east, employers, employees and unions ignore this at their peril. Therefore in this ‘brave new world’ that we all find ourselves in, save the privileged few, the old fashioned demands of the unions and their members in this, and other disputes are sadly out of step with this new reality. I have to say that in this particular dispute, I feel that BA is more than aware of the changes that need to be made, and it is attempting to adapt, the employees need to recognise the imperative to do likewise.
The western world has some tough choices to make IMO, wether to carry on engaging in their our economic and industrial practices of yore and therefore continue our slow decline, or wake up to the fact that things can no longer go on as they are. We have to adapt wether we like it or not. This BA cabin crew dispute is a shining example of peoples failure to see this, and some companies also seem to suffer this myopia. Wether we like it or not, and keeping my argument aviation orientated, and as China was mentioned by another member, you can bet your life that Chinese cabin crew work for a good deal less than their western counterparts and enjoy far fewer ‘perks’. But they work anyhow, and their airlines prospour. What I’m trying to say is that these eastern economies are not the ones suffering deep recessions…..its ours. The days of staging seemingly suicidal strikes in the face of the circumstances that I’ve tried to put across in this post, will have to come to an end, there is no argument, they will have to. The changes necessary in this new economic order will be no less profound for companies either. Lets be under no illusion, employees may well have to forgo certain ‘comforts’ such as regular, and in some cases unrealistic pay increases, and other demands that they have always perceived as God given rights, historically won or not it doesn’t matter anymore.
MSR777Great shots of the Orions Neil. They bring back unpleasant memories for me of the day I delayed the departure of their inaugural flight from Stansted. This was due to a major f**k up by yours truly on the loadsheet. Not good in front of your own management, local dignitaries, not to mention a full load of pax.
Happy days?………………well that one certainly wasn’t:(
MSR777I have never seen such a determined case of savaging the hand that feeds you.
As I’ve said before about these people, If they don’t like it, then they should get off those planes and make room for those that would give their right arms to do their job! Believe me, there would be no shortage of takers. I’m sure that my very well educated nephew, who like me is an aviation ‘nut’, and does the only job that he can get at this time, poor sod, as a night shelf stacker at Tescos, would be on board like a shot! C’mon Walsh, lets get this sorted!
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