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halloweene

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November 12, 2016 at 9:46 am in reply to: USAF not F-35 thread #2152420

halloweene
Participant

“Subsidized ” was the wrong word, sorry.

If the “bare fighter” cost to India is $103 million but the French government pays a lot less, that means that as a customer I don’t care what France pays for theirs, I care about what I am getting charged. Yes, the F-35 has had more than it’s fair share of cost overruns, but as an FMS customer, I can still buy an F-35 today for less than France will sell me a Rafale. I don’t have to pay for any Dev fixes (thank you USG) and certainly don’t have to pay an additional $50 mil per plane for “customization”.

I can’t read French, but the Rafale wiki says that the “Flyaway” cost of a F3+ Rafale as of 2010 is $110 million per this PDF:
https://web.archive.org/web/20120130003146/http://www.ccomptes.fr/fr/CC/documents/RPA/1_conduite-des-programmes-armement.pdf

But another doc from 2013 says $80 mil.

Now, take a look at the deal as a whole.

Let’s look at FMS F-35 sales and Rafale exports.

India: $8.8 billion for 36
Egypt: $5 billion for 24
Qartar: $7 billion for 24
South Korea: $7.8 billion (with weapons) for 40 F-35s
Japan: $10 billion for 42 F-35s (most locally built)

Do the math, the F-35 is cheaper.

No it sys unit price and states it includes nn recurring dev costs. And i don’t do maths on journals reported export costs, you know aswell as me it includes many different things.

November 11, 2016 at 9:32 pm in reply to: USAF not F-35 thread #2152557

halloweene
Participant

You cannot compare French domestic cost if it’s subsidized.

By law, FMS cost is the same as domestic. Somethings there is an overall fee, but that is often waived.

Korean numbers were from over 2 years ago and did not have a Rafale to compare to. 2 years ago the F-35 was more expensive than it is today and is getting cheaper by the year. The Rafale/Eurofighter/F-15E are not getting any cheaper.

Not sure what you think needs fixing for any FY2017 F-35, but they are delivered in Block 3F format. Engine fire issue form 2014 is done, lightning protection is in Block 3i, software is done in 3F, “isolant”???? (I am assuming PAO insulation) is not a problem (it was a non-conforming part), helmet is done in Block 3i, and data fusion will be done by 3F.

What do you mean by subsidized? Just invented it? Rafale industrials took 25% of program R&D and dev costs charge. Less subsidized than anyother warplane, not to mention F-35 and cost overruns.
Present engines delivered by PW have a permanent fix? That is a genuine question.
The rest is “will be”. and associated costs.

November 11, 2016 at 9:28 pm in reply to: F-35 News and discussion (2016) take III #2152570

halloweene
Participant

That was reported earlier in the week.

Did not see. Sorry.

November 11, 2016 at 9:09 pm in reply to: F-35 News and discussion (2016) take III #2152586

halloweene
Participant

http://www.military.com/daily-news/2016/11/07/marine-corps-f35-caught-fire-training-flight.html

Fire in weapon bay. No casualty.

November 11, 2016 at 9:06 pm in reply to: Cougar/Puma series vs Black hawk series #2152589

halloweene
Participant

don’t worry. its not fighter jets. no one cares about transport helicopters

I know someone who is going to rant on H2XX security issues… Btw, and personal experience, Caracal is not fitted for high altitude high temp operations… Underpowered.

November 11, 2016 at 9:05 pm in reply to: USAF not F-35 thread #2152593

halloweene
Participant

News Flash… the Rafale cost more for non-French sales but the F-35 costs the same as US sales…..

If Canada compared what it would cost for them to buy the F-35 or the Rafale… the F-35 is cheaper.

Compare apples with apples aka domestic fly awaycost with domestic fly away cost. Official numvers with official numbers.

Comparing journos deducted numbers for an export with a domestic official number is utter Trollsh….

We can compare with korean numbers maybe?

And NO the F-35 cost isn’t the same, there are FMS costs. Not to mention zillions of retrofit needed … (fix enfine fire cause, fix software, fix no close to cloud issue, isolant issues, helmet glitches, deficient data fusion that erase valid tracks or double others etc. etc.) I’m sure these issues will be fixed, but saying F-35 is cheaper than Rafale is BS.

November 11, 2016 at 8:51 pm in reply to: USAF not F-35 thread #2152609

halloweene
Participant

CPFH cost estimations for the F-35 have actually gone down in recent years as experience is gained and real world costs can be calculated. btw, the JSF SAR is looking at real world (2008-2010) F-16 costs. The data that you pointed to was from 2 years ago and only covered just that one year. The SAR report covers the entire program.

While you are entitled to your own opinion, the FACT is that a “bare fighter” cost of a Rafale (as offered to India) is more than a “Flyaway” FY2017 F-35, by $4 mil per airframe.

Simple plain lie, and you know it (see above).

November 11, 2016 at 8:49 pm in reply to: USAF not F-35 thread #2152612

halloweene
Participant

FY2017 F-35A Flyaway price is $99 mil.

Quote from India deal says “bare plane” Rafale is $103 mil (before the $50 mil per plane “customization”)

Previous deals & proposals put both the Eurofighter and F-15E at above $100 mil.

Quote from french senate (official) say around 70 Meuros, 20% VAT included https://youtu.be/kSE-XoVKaXg. Do not compare apples and oranges aka domestic and export quoted orders(which usually do not include same things and btw, + export FMS like costs etc. any official number from india?). You know that very well and are just trying to twist facts : F-35 is MUCH more expensive than Rafale F3. (by your own numbers, not to mention side costs as supplementary contracts etc.)

November 11, 2016 at 8:33 pm in reply to: Military Aviation News #2152625

halloweene
Participant

French naval aircraft operational availability revealed in letter to MP

Dismal figures. How come such low availability for the Rafale M?

Honestly, E2C a spy plane? And do the author know that 10 Rafale M (F1) are under refit? That others fly twice there annual allocation. Abysmal journalism…

November 11, 2016 at 8:26 pm in reply to: UAE trainer war #2152628

halloweene
Participant

This one should never have been deleted. But I fear that the today NoviAvion is already flying in… India as the Teja.
What was the estimated % of completion at the time?

Fine and very informative hread by the way.

The plane was 1 year from roll out. And yes it is interesting to see the thread with years passing…

November 11, 2016 at 3:06 pm in reply to: Cougar/Puma series vs Black hawk series #2152839

halloweene
Participant

Oh no Y-20, why opening Pandora box?

November 11, 2016 at 2:49 pm in reply to: UAE trainer war #2152856

halloweene
Participant

In the meanwhile Serbians hope to revive novi avion project with UAE funds.

November 11, 2016 at 2:48 pm in reply to: USAF not F-35 thread #2152858

halloweene
Participant

Inflation is a bitch. The F-35 is cheaper than the Rafale, Eurofighter, and F-15E

No. Repeating that Mantra won’t make it true.

November 9, 2016 at 5:22 pm in reply to: USAF not F-35 thread #2153558

halloweene
Participant

9.9G in testing IIRC

ty

November 9, 2016 at 2:11 pm in reply to: F-35 News and discussion (2016) take III #2153655

halloweene
Participant

And thank goodness for that; just to think that I was shocked over Brexit. Looks like the American cousins one upped the Brits this year.

F-35B fire; https://www.marinecorpstimes.com/articles/marine-f-35-fire-flight was this posted in news thread yet?

yes they upped you. They had a Trump card…
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