Apparently, Iraq has invited weapons inspectors from the U.N. to come and do their thing. Also, it seems the United States and some in the U.N. aren’t taking this invitation seriously.
What I make of this is that Saddam is getting a little nervous. It seems he knows what’s likely going to happen to him within the next year or so. I think it’s rather funny that he’s finally getting the message that the United States is serious about getting him out of there actually. He better get ready….
By: Arabella-Cox - 27th August 2002 at 09:07
RE: Wanted to stay out of this … yeah right….
Scooter
“…..a world full of SH’s and Terrorist! “
If you didn’t live in dream land you’d know that is the world we already live in.
Apparantly terrorism didn’t exist before 11/9, and other than those evil serpents the great knight US’ness has battled like Hitler no dictator is a dictator till the US says they are…
Keep your eyes closed don’t listen to what the rest of the world is saying to you and think what you like… it seems to be the American way. }>
By: Arabella-Cox - 25th August 2002 at 16:39
RE: Wanted to stay out of this … yeah right….
PhantomII- Don’t waste your time with these people. There bias against the US is almost suffocating! I was looking for a good debate on the issues. Thought, all I got was pure propaganda! Maybe their working for good old Saddam? There words help keep murdering dictators like him in power by shifting blame to others! Didn’t the NAZI’s blame the Jew’s for all of there problems? Keep on talking guys…….keep twisting the facts and blaming the US for the worlds problems. While your own Goverments do nothing and you mite get what your looking for…..a world full of SH’s and Terrorist!
By: Arthur - 23rd August 2002 at 14:36
RE: Wanted to stay out of this … yeah right….
>Arthur,
>Apparently you aren’t as informed as I thought you
>were. After the election in 2000 they investigated to see if
>Bush’s win was legitimate, and guess what? It was. He
>actually had the required number of votes (i.e. more votes
>than Gore) so he won the election legitimately. So, you
>can’t throw that against him anymore. He did win fair and
>square.
Votes cast for Al Gore: 50.16 million
Votes cast for George Bush: 49.82 million
(figures from http://members.verizon.net/~vze3fs8i/air/whowon.html)
It was a close call, but Gore actually got more votes.
The reason that Bush won the elections, was because he got 272 electoral votes (because of the stepped system you have), and Gore only got 267 electoral votes which indeed make Bush win fair and square according to the American poll system. Yet i can’t comprehend this – it all comes down to the fact that a vote of an American citizen is worth less if he lives in (for example) Kansas then a vote casted in Rhode Island (i just named these states as an example, it could easily be the other way around). The way Bush eventually became president is as far as i can tell perfectly legal according to the US system, but he was not the one who got the most votes.
By: Geforce - 23rd August 2002 at 09:49
RE: Wanted to stay out of this …
[updated:LAST EDITED ON 23-08-02 AT 09:49 AM (GMT)]———————**************STOP**************————————–
By: Arabella-Cox - 23rd August 2002 at 09:20
RE: Wanted to stay out of this …
“This is no pinko commie Board, but it does reflect what 70 % of the world thinks about the actions against Iraq. It also became clear for me that America doesn’t care about what its allies want, as long as they are supportive, which is not in this particular case. “
I wasn’t expressing my opinion of this board.
If you read what I said in context it is the poster who states that SH or NK or Iran is evil and meets with resistance to the Axis of evil rhetoric… these can’t possibly be intelligent thinking people… they haven’t taken Bush’s speech as gospel… they must be pinko commies… or tree huggers.
BTW Seahawk I am not really a tree hugger… I am pro the death penalty, I am prochoice (a woman should have control over her own body and its functions… if she does not think she is read for the responsibility of motherhood who can say she must have the child? There are enough foster homes and orphanges.).
I am not anti logging… I think sustainable logging is just fine… nature is nice but people have to make a living.
I enjoy hunting.
…hardly the profile of a tree hugger.
“Are the Iraqi people any less deserving than the French were during WWII? “
If you are going to suggest that all the worlds oppressed be freed then you are on your own. Invading Iraq might seem to be a fun game but when you start invading China, North Korea, Saudi Arabia and and all the other countries where “democracy” is oppressed then you might lose more than a few thousand troops.
But no, you hate war and you are only suggesting the invasion of Iraq… why is that?
You asked why the French were rescued in WWII and the Iraqi people were not.
Well first of all if you knew anything about WWII you’d know that those who joined the war before France was invaded could not have joined to save France. Of those who joined after France was invaded how many joined specifically to free France?
NONE.
“Live in Iraq, Iran, or North Korea for a year. Then you can come back and lecture me!”
So when does the invasion of Iran, North Korea, or China or any other country with oppressed people begin?
Why bother lecturing you… you could care less about civil rights abuses in Iraq… you just want revenge against the guy there who defied you and threatened your oil.
It is funny. He kills his own people with chemical weapons… which the west and the US doesn’t care about till several years have passed and he does something to p!ss them off thenhis whole sordid history (edited where it incriminates the West or the US) is brought out, he is tried by media and now the US wants to go in and execute him.
You call it justice but it is revenge.
Democracy and freedom has nothing to do with this… otherwise you’d want to invade Cuba, and North Korea and China and Iran and Saudi Arabia etc etc.
” As for American bashing I don’t hear you complaining about anyone else or is the US the country that makes mistakes…..I’ll compare our history with any country in the world! The British Empire, Imperial Japan, NAZI’s, Communist, Arab Dictators, etc. etc. Really get a life! “
Yes… US history is very comparable to the British Empire, Imperial Japan, the Nazis, Communists, and dictators from all around the globe… I’m glad you pointed that out.
If you actually read what I and others say we are not saying the US is evil and the rest of the world is good… in fact it is those from the US that say this or that regime is evil… and the ironic thing is the evidence used to prove how evil they are is often things the US has done or condoned from its closest allies. When that fact is pointed out we are accused of US bashing and I am getting a little sick of it.
The US is not an evil country. It is not a good country… IT IS JUST A COUNTRY… no more no less. It does things that are in its own interests first… as any other country would do.
Its biggest fault is that it expects to be loved for everything it does.
If you’ve just help me kill or defeat an enemy then sure I’ll think you’re wonderful… for a while. But eventually your interests will contradict mine and I’ll receive an “either you are with me or you are against me” ultimatum. I will make a judgement call. If siding with you costs me a small amout of export income then why not side with you… it is warm and comfortable though a little suffocating in that big bear hug you call foreign policy. If however siding with you will drag me into another vietnam, cost me my friends, and cost lots of money then I might just say no thanks.
Unfortunately the US handles such rejection like a 6 year old…
US basher…
By: Geforce - 23rd August 2002 at 07:38
RE: Wanted to stay out of this … yeah right….
[updated:LAST EDITED ON 23-08-02 AT 07:42 AM (GMT)]Let’s continue this discussion somewhere else because it’s becoming a modem killer !!!!!! (Even with my new broadband telenet account).
Nice name, the Belgian monster, though. Reminds me of that old show on TV, Sesamstree :D. They had cookie-monster, can I be waffle-monster?! 😀
To go to the new thread, click [link:www.keymags.co.uk/dcforum/DCForumID5/522.html|here].
By: PhantomII - 23rd August 2002 at 00:50
RE: Wanted to stay out of this … yeah right….
Uh-oh. The leader the tree huggers is back. The Belgian monster returns!
Arthur,
Apparently you aren’t as informed as I thought you were. After the election in 2000 they investigated to see if Bush’s win was legitimate, and guess what? It was. He actually had the required number of votes (i.e. more votes than Gore) so he won the election legitimately. So, you can’t throw that against him anymore. He did win fair and square.
By: Geforce - 22nd August 2002 at 23:45
Wanted to stay out of this …
[updated:LAST EDITED ON 22-08-02 AT 11:54 PM (GMT)]… but I just can’t resist.
Using the same arguments over and over again won’t help us coming to a conclusion. The question which was asked a couple of times, though no one (at least no pro-American) seamed to answer it is :
WHY SADDAM? IS SADDAM THE ONLY EVIL; WHY IS THE US ONLY FOCUSSING ON SADDAM?
I’ve read many stupid and interesting things, varying from PII wanting to kill Saddam with his GBU-12 (wouldn’t a 24 be better in this case) to Arthur, questionning again the legitimacy of the Bush administration.
@ Garry
This is no pinko commie Board, but it does reflect what 70 % of the world thinks about the actions against Iraq. It also became clear for me that America doesn’t care about what its allies want, as long as they are supportive, which is not in this particular case.
@ Scooter
Comparing WWII with Desert Storm is also BS, because Hitler was a leader of a totally different sort than Saddam. Saddam indeed used toxic gas against his own people, but luckily, the US never did this. (Apart from some agent Orange which is 100 % safe, believe me).
the 2800+ deads on IX-XI indeed is nt much compared to the other deaths, as Seahawk has explained us so well.
By: Arthur - 22nd August 2002 at 21:52
The democracy issue….
>Surely, one of the great parts of democracy.
Oh right: let’s bring in democracy! Let’s have a poll in Iraq if they want to be liberated by the US, or not. Let’s have a global poll if the world’s population wants the US in, or out of the Kyoto agreement. Let’s have a democratic poll in Saudi Arabia if the population really wants the US to protect them.
Puh-leaze! A country which has slightly less than 50% of it’s voters turning up at an election, a country in which the fellow who has the least votes becomes president, a country which uses it’s ability to bomb or antagonise any country which doesn’t sing in tune with them unasked… yet still, you dare to use the democracy-card? With the often enough displayed attitude of “You’re free to disagree, but i’m democratically ignore any opinion not in line with mine!”?
As for your comment on why i’m being critical on the US and no other countries (have you ever seen me posting on France? Or my own country?): this thread was started by PhantomII, who was oh-so-sure that the whole population of the US was behind Dubya’s mission to punish Iraq (go and ask Republicans like Schultz or Kissinger how they think about Qusai Bush’ plans, BTW). Let’s face it: the only true reason for Dumbya to attack Iraq is to save the face of the older guy in the Bush-dynasty who did an half-assed job against Iraq in 1991.
>I mite add
>that WWII was very complicated.
Scooter, let me ask you: is there anything anywhere that you don’t find ‘very complicated’, yet want to solve by stupidities like bombing this-and-that guy?
>Much more than Iraq and the Middle East could ever hope to be!
WW2 more complicated then the Middle East? Thanks for the best joke i’ve heard in years.
>Yet, as allied nations we came together and won over evil.
Oh, now it’s “we as allied nations” again? I thought it was only the US.
>I sincerely hope we have no
>more wars. Thought, do we really have any choice? We never
>learn from history to bad!
What have we learned from history? That apart from WW2 the US has a very, very, very poor record when it comes to foreign politics resulting in the local population ending up better than they were beforehand? If that’s the case: indeed, you haven’t learned anything from history. Complicated as it might be 😉
By: Arabella-Cox - 22nd August 2002 at 21:28
RE: Iraqi Invitation
Live in Iraq, Iran, or North Korea for a year. Then you can come back and lecture me! As for American bashing I don’t hear you complaining about anyone else or is the US the country that makes mistakes…..I’ll compare our history with any country in the world! The British Empire, Imperial Japan, NAZI’s, Communist, Arab Dictators, etc. etc. Really get a life!
By: Arabella-Cox - 22nd August 2002 at 21:22
RE: Iraqi Invitation
Surely, one of the great parts of democracy. Is the ability to express ones views! Maybe thats part of my point? We have that ability but, the Iraqi people do not! We liberated the French in WWII from the NAZI’s at considerable cost to both sides. Yet, I dare you to find anyone who things that we shouldn’t have done so………..Are the Iraqi people any less deserving than the French were during WWII? I mite add that WWII was very complicated. Much more than Iraq and the Middle East could ever hope to be! Yet, as allied nations we came together and won over evil. I sincerely hope we have no more wars. Thought, do we really have any choice? We never learn from history to bad!
By: Geforce - 22nd August 2002 at 19:45
RE: Iraqi Invitation
Don’t worry you get used to it }>
By: seahawk - 22nd August 2002 at 09:12
RE: Iraqi Invitation
That is hard to say, but I have to agree with Garry and it is the first time I agree with his politcal views.
(Seems like I´m becoming a tree huger)
By: Arabella-Cox - 22nd August 2002 at 08:44
RE: Iraqi Invitation
“Supporters? My only supporters are my walking sticks! I have not got a clue what you are talking about there, could you please enlighten me?”
I think by supporters he means those who choose to see that the US isn’t perfect and like to point out its imperfections from time to time. He calls it US bashing, though if you read the posts with an open mind you will see it is not US bashing in the sense of the US being evil and the rest of the world being perfect. In fact the largest user of “evil” rhetoric are those from the land of milk and honey that is the US.
Children in glass houses shouldn’t throw stones… unfortunately the US seems to have an abundance of stones and when a few are thrown back they have a little tantrum.
I’ll repeat again… this US bashing consists of someone claiming SH or North Korea or Iran or wherever is evil and states they are evil because they xyz. When someone points out that the US xyz’s itself and has condoned large scale xyz’ing by many of it allies and friends that someone is declared a US basher…. “You’d be speaking German/Japanese/Russian etc if it wasn’t for the US!!!”
Hardly a sensible or rational argument… but then the “US basher” could hardley be right could they????
Naahhh just consider this a Commie pinko lefty board and either try to cleanse it or if facing overwhelming odds go to a nice safe board where there will be no pinko commie US haters… like Flanker.com }>
By: kev35 - 21st August 2002 at 18:51
RE: Iraqi Invitation
Hi,Scooter.
“I guess that we will have to agree on disagreeing about the rest. You have some points that have merit. Yet, I believe you draw conclusion without seeing the whole picture.”
First of all, I think we will have to agree to disagree and thank you for saying I have made some points which have merit. As for not seeing the whole picture? Well I could accuse you of the same with this insane obsession with Saddam Hussein.
“Most of these topics are very complicated to say the least! Just like the Ireland problem and the IRA.”
Of course they are complicated which is why I can’t understand your simplistic viewpoint that the world suddenly becomes a safer place without Saddam Hussein in it. Several of us have asked what happens to Iraq when Hussein is ousted, not once have you given any indication that America has a plan to cope with the power vacuum which would be created.
“You and your supporters must disagree with your respect of goverments. Because most support the US positon on many of these same points.”
????????????? Me and my supporters? I’m a 41 year old disabled man who probably has too much time on his hands, and definitely too much pain. Supporters? My only supporters are my walking sticks! I have not got a clue what you are talking about there, could you please enlighten me?
“…..unless you believe that your goverments are puppets of the US! (Which, I think is highly unlikely?)”
Not so sure about that. Britain’s friendship with America has been a long, enduring and beneficial one to both nations. However, reports here seem to indicate a distinct lack of support for Bush’s one man crusade. Half the government are against any further military action in Iraq, the general public don’t appear too keen and as for the Conservative party they are just hoping to pick up the pieces. I think many Brits currently see our relationship with America as Britain answering to her Master’s sharp yank on the lead.
“So, maybe the truth is that your views are in the minority…….”
I may indeed be a minority of one, but if America is such a defender of freedom I am sure I can call on your support to allow me to expound my radical minority views.
Regards,
kev35
By: Arabella-Cox - 21st August 2002 at 15:40
RE: Iraqi Invitation
Your mistaken most Americans did not support the IRA! As a matter of fact most thought they were terrorist plane and simple. Nothing more and nothing less. I guess that we will have to agree on disagreeing about the rest. You have some points that have merit. Yet, I believe you draw conclusion without seeing the whole picture. Most of these topics are very complicated to say the least! Just like the Ireland problem and the IRA. You and your supporters must disagree with your respect of goverments. Because most support the US positon on many of these same points. If, not openly behind closed doors…..unless you believe that your goverments are puppets of the US! (Which, I think is highly unlikely?) So, maybe the truth is that your views are in the minority…….
By: Arabella-Cox - 21st August 2002 at 08:42
RE: Iraqi Invitation
“I think that whatever I say would twist things around to make the US look gulity.”
Scooter and PhantomII.
To summarise both of you are pointing the finger at SH and comparing him to Hitler and saying he is evil. The evidence you give is looked at by the rest of us and some of us point out that the US has done some of those things (ie no respect for national borders etc) and turned a blind eye when their stooges do ALL of the other things SH is accused of.
Your reply is that everyone on this board is a US basher and that every other government in the world has done the bad things too.
I think I can safely say we all agree with the latter point… which would be quite valid if we were being holier than thou like and saying SH should be killed and removed from power. We are not and we are wondering why you are… he is not at the top of the list of bad leaders in this world… many have died under regimes in Rwanda and many other countries… exactly why are you singling out SH?
“Otherwise quit blaming us for all of the worlds problems and take a close look at yourself. “
Interesting… the worlds problems are of our own making. This is quite true in many cases and in many other cases the cause lies at the feet of the US of A. The biggest problem is that the US of A seems to think its big expensive 350 billion a year military is a surgical tool that will make all of the worlds problems go away.
This is of course BS but when things go wrong and long term solutions are not found then it is always someone elses fault.
“Respectfully, you are judging America by a different standard! Yes, we are holding many terrorist in a prison in Cuba. They have many more rights than the 2800+ Americans (plus I believe 200+ British citizens) that were killed on 9/11! They are being treated with humanity. The are feed everyday, clothed, allowed to pray and worship to whatever god that they choose. I have no doubt that they will receive justice with time. That said I am not ready nor is my goverment to let them all go. Just because a few liberals would like you the rest of the world to think we are hurting there rights! “
I don’t think anyone here suggested they should be released… but why are those identified as being US citizens being treated so differently? Why aren’t they all kept in the same place under the same conditions if those conditions are acceptible?
Not acceptible for US citizens but OK for Afghans… double standard?
The fact that they currently enjoy more rights than those who died on sept 11 is irrelevant and simply emotive…. I guess if they had killed 2,801+ you could have executed them without trial?
Your ideas of lynch mob justice suggest that democracy is a facard to justify what normally passes for US foreign policy (ie screw you all I’m out for everything I can get.)
Your mask is slipping…
“If, you don’t like Americans. At least be honest and tell everyone! “
If you think I like or dislike all Americans based on meeting 10-20 then I think it is you that needs to have a little think.
By: kev35 - 21st August 2002 at 08:30
RE: Iraqi Invitation
Scooter,
You either don’t listen or you’re just trying to be obtuse. Your Taleban prisoners should in all likelihood be executed. But America is the country that expounds the virtues of freedom, justice and the American way. So why don’t you try these prisoners and see justice done? Have you no evidence? Try them, if they are guilty convict them then carry out whatever sentence is passed. The vilest murderers are correctly tried, convicted, sentenced and these sentences carried out. So what is the difference? You grant more rights to murderers, rapists, child molesters and every other conceivable kind of criminal than you do to the Taleban prisoners. I’m not suggesting you let them go, just try them and punish them.
What’s so difficult to understand?
If you carried out your war against terror in a calm, considered, sane fashion you would find you had a lot more support.
But if we’re going to talk numbers, yes, some 2,800 people died in the WTC. Over the years some hundreds of British troops were killed in Northern Ireland or as a result of Irish terrorism. Who were among their greatest supporters? I can’t remember can you? oh yes, it’s coming back to me now, it was the American people. You’re suddenly so outraged because terrorism has reached your shores yet many American people actually encouraged Irish terrorism financially. Many countries have lived with terrorism for years and America couldn’t have cared less.
Regards,
kev35
By: seahawk - 21st August 2002 at 05:29
RE: Iraqi Invitation
2800+ westerners compared to what ??
– the paestinians dying under Israeli occupation ??
– Iraki childeren dying because of the embargo ??
– people in Afghanistan killed by US bombs ??
– people dying in Sudan, because the only working medical factory was bombed by the US ??
Furthermore could you plz explain to me why you see a connection between Al Qaida and SH ??
There is no direct link imo and if the US attacks countries supporting them, then you should look at Saudi Arabia and Pakistan, but these countries are valuable to your political interests, so you do nothing against them.
As long as this is the case an attack against Irak is nothing more then unjustifieable.
By: Arabella-Cox - 20th August 2002 at 23:09
RE: Iraqi Invitation
Respectfully, you are judging America by a different standard! Yes, we are holding many terrorist in a prison in Cuba. They have many more rights than the 2800+ Americans (plus I believe 200+ British citizens) that were killed on 9/11! They are being treated with humanity. The are feed everyday, clothed, allowed to pray and worship to whatever god that they choose. I have no doubt that they will receive justice with time. That said I am not ready nor is my goverment to let them all go. Just because a few liberals would like you the rest of the world to think we are hurting there rights! Doesn’t the US have the right to protect itself? Many of these same prisoners would surely harm American citizens if they were given a chance! At this point its very hard to sort them all out. For now they are and will be treated humanly. What a double standard! I am sure I could find many a IRA member that could tell me all the bad thing that the UK goverment has done!!! How they were unjustly imprisoned. I am not saying that I would neccessarily believe them. Yet, you are not even giving America the benefit of the doubt. You hear one thing and immediately come to the conclusion that its all America’s fault. Open your eyes! What have you read about the prisoners in Cuba? What would you think if a member of your family was killed on 9/11? If, they did you may find that your views have changed somewhat! We Americans love justice and even the more conservative ones aren’t happy about the Prisoners in Cuba but, you have to weight the plus & minuses. They are being treated well for now and they will get a fair trial. Just not on there terms…..put yourself in our position and you may have second thought. Regardless what you believe I can tell you that our prisoners are treated far better than there’s! Many of ours are tortured and some shot on site! What about the American reporter that was murdered in Pakistan? Taped so his whole family could see! (just because he was a American and Jew)Talk about justices! We don’t see much justice in the world and we surely don’t see the world giving us any.I didn’t hear you codemning it? People like you are funny. 2800 people from around the world are murdered on 9/11. How many Westeners were kidnaped, murdered, rape, and tortured last year. I am not just talking Americans……how about British, French, and how about Arabs themselfs? Many of these same people that you are defending would kill you just because you weren’t one of them! What are you defending?
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August 4, 2002 at 4:21 am