Israel/Lebanon Situation (Merged)

I’m not directly accusing anyone of anything right now, but I think it’s important to acknowledge the tragic fact that there is a live conflict going on and that innocent people are getting killed and wounded. This isn’t a movie or a video game.

And in the middle of all this, world attention on the far greater issues in Africa, at least in terms of human lives, seems very limited.

Well for all u F-4 fans out there, there is still hope that we could see the Phantom kicking terrorist butt. Don’t forget Russia re-activated a few MiG-27s for operations over Chechnya with welded steel plates for increased survivability, maybe the Israelis will do the same if things get worse!!! (Not that I’m hoping it will get worse or anything). In response to Iran having “5 nukes”…what the hell do u think Israel has equipping those “Dolphin” submarines…rotten eggs??? :diablo:

It’s still very early news (and therefore not all that reliable), but it seems that Israel might allow foreign nationals in Lebanon to leave over the Israel-Lebanon border.

Just checked on the RN website HMS Illustrious is currantly in athens for a five day visit maybe she could be called in??

U.S.S Iwo Jima and the embarked 24th MEU are heading to the waters of Cyprus for possible U.S. civilian evacuations.

Dont the RN have a carrier and an assult ship in the area??

France is sending 2 C-160, a Casa 235, 3 CSAR EC-725 in Cyprus (probably Akrotiri or Larnaca), and LPD Sirocco and frigate Jean de Vienne in eastern mediterranea for evacuation of french nationals

From pprune: RAF Chinooks tankstopping in Nice Saturday, departing east (selfdeploying to RAF Akrotiri for upcoming evacuation?)

PGM use does matter. Their are more effective less expensive conventional munitions in the IDF arsenal. Obviously a cluster bomb, is much more effective against soft targets vs a Hellfire or a typical LGB.

The use of PGMs with unitary warheads also reduce the risk of collateral damage compared to e.g. cluster munitions. However, blast waves and fragments can inflict considerable damage on nearby objects and personnel when used in densely populated areas. Is it really necessary to hit those road intersections? I’m pretty sure it won’t hurt the Hizbollah all that much.

I am sure that Nasrallah, Assad, and Adjamenijdad all considered the Lebanese people’s situation, with the obvious Israeli response that would come, and green lighted the Hizbollah abduction, of two Israeli soldiers with their blessings.

I think so too. I don’t think they really care much about the Lebanese or the Palestinians. They might just as well be using them as heavy pawns to benefit their political agendas in the region. The Israeli response will probably create more antagonism towards Israel, something which certain key persons can feed on. It won’t surprise me if this development was anticipated by the perpetrators and the people behind or above them.

Good guy image or bad guy image, it really does not matter. What matters is the return of the two kidnapped Israeli soldiers alive and unhurt.

It matters, but is it worth the casualties we’ve seen so far?

Unfortunately I am. All of Israel’s F-4 squadrons were closed, the last one two years ago. A few F-4s were left in operational storage, but they were put in Ovda AFB in the south, to be used only in case of a real emergency. So it’s unlikely at all that any of them was used in Lebanon both because it’s far away, and because there are other, operational planes that can do the same job, perhaps better.

damn. I miss em. – The wail and smoke.

I say reopen the line at St.Louis, and build em again !

I luv the F-4E !!!!!!!!

Phantoms Phorever !

Big deal on the comparison. PGMs or no, There are still in the area of 50 or more dead civilians in Lebanon that did nothing more than go about their daily life. Dropping over-passes and cratering roads in a dense population area ( one community there ) still will mean there is no way you are going to avoid killing innocents as opposed to the old saw of “trying your best….” or whatever is said in the current I_am_wearing_a_white_hat_and_doing_good mode claimed by the P.R. people of the op. Knowningly trying to destroy a whole economy… ( cratering runways,… destroying fuel at an airport…. dropping bridges.. cutting roads all with PGMs of some sort, destroying a tourism based economy is just way over the top. It’s a given that the weak Lebanon government doesn’t have control over everything in Lebanon concerning terrorists running around and showing the flag. So the logic here is that the “good guys” are just going to flat out punish a whole population as opposed to more sensible things. Where more sensible things envolve techiques they already have in place that work: example the stiff amount of recon assets, UAVs, and C2ISR of all flavors, that can bring down a good airstrike or artillery quickly on bad actors firing unguided artillery rockets, and numerous other good methods the IDF uses. I don’t have a problem with that. Punishing a whole population in Lebanon however is ruining the “good guy” image real real fast. Our ( U.S. ) blanket support every_day_all_the_time doesn’t make us look good either using the old tired “Israel has a right to defend themselves” words. They have a right to defend themselves. In all humanity, they don’t have a right to over-react and kill 50 or more civilians or destroy a whole countries economy given the kind of force that was used against the IDF by the bad guys.

PGM use does matter. Their are more effective less expensive conventional munitions in the IDF arsenal. Obviously a cluster bomb, is much more effective against soft targets vs a Hellfire or a typical LGB.

I am sure that Nasrallah, Assad, and Adjamenijdad all considered the Lebanese people’s situation, with the obvious Israeli response that would come, and green lighted the Hizbollah abduction, of two Israeli soldiers with their blessings.

Good guy image or bad guy image, it really does not matter. What matters is the return of the two kidnapped Israeli soldiers alive and unhurt.

Hizbollah can return the two soldiers, and bring an immediate end to the Israeli bad guy assault on Lebanon. If Hizbollah cannot return the two Israeli soldiers alive and unhurt, than Hizbollah and Lebanon (Syria should also get what is coming to them) must suffer the consequences of Hizbollah’s unprovoked terrorist actions. Actually Hezbollah, has just called for expanding the current flare-up, to an open war. With these statements, Hezbollah does not have any problem, with the Lebanese people continuing to pay for their own terrorist actions.

Unfortunately I am. All of Israel’s F-4 squadrons were closed, the last one two years ago. A few F-4s were left in operational storage, but they were put in Ovda AFB in the south, to be used only in case of a real emergency. So it’s unlikely at all that any of them was used in Lebanon both because it’s far away, and because there are other, operational planes that can do the same job, perhaps better.

Ah i see mate thankyou for the information didn’t realise you were from isreal.

Thank you Erez for the Israeli “insider” info on the current status of the Kurnas fleet with the IAF. I just checked a few websites and the official IDF/AF website and they all say the same the F-4E is in storage at various bases. But for a moment my heart skipped a beat to hear the Sledgehammer was back in action wearing the Star of David putting ordnance down range.

You sure mate the footage is saw showed a camera at the border then looking up to the sky with and F4 fireing flares.

Unfortunately I am. All of Israel’s F-4 squadrons were closed, the last one two years ago. A few F-4s were left in operational storage, but they were put in Ovda AFB in the south, to be used only in case of a real emergency. So it’s unlikely at all that any of them was used in Lebanon both because it’s far away, and because there are other, operational planes that can do the same job, perhaps better.

What you saw was probably an old 1982 footage, Israel doesn’t fly F-4s anymore.

You sure mate the footage is saw showed a camera at the border then looking up to the sky with and F4 fireing flares.

i just saw footage on breakfast television of an F4 dropping an LGB over Beruit!

What you saw was probably an old 1982 footage, Israel doesn’t fly F-4s anymore.

We now talk localy. If you wan’t global solution it is: Golan to Sirya, Gaza, West coast and east part of Jerusalem to Palestinian, and than there could be peace. any other solution is imagination.

I thought the Kurnass 2000 (F-4E) was retired from the IAF a few years ago, but if not good to hear about the Phantom still putting bombs on target.

Aye it is from what ive seen there still doing well.

I thought the Kurnass 2000 (F-4E) was retired from the IAF a few years ago, but if not good to hear about the Phantom still putting bombs on target.

Big deal on the comparison. PGMs or no, There are still in the area of 50 or more dead civilians in Lebanon that did nothing more than go about their daily life. Dropping over-passes and cratering roads in a dense population area ( one community there ) still will mean there is no way you are going to avoid killing innocents as opposed to the old saw of “trying your best….” or whatever is said in the current I_am_wearing_a_white_hat_and_doing_good mode claimed by the P.R. people of the op. Knowningly trying to destroy a whole economy… ( cratering runways,… destroying fuel at an airport…. dropping bridges.. cutting roads all with PGMs of some sort, destroying a tourism based economy is just way over the top. It’s a given that the weak Lebanon government doesn’t have control over everything in Lebanon concerning terrorists running around and showing the flag. So the logic here is that the “good guys” are just going to flat out punish a whole population as opposed to more sensible things. Where more sensible things envolve techiques they already have in place that work: example the stiff amount of recon assets, UAVs, and C2ISR of all flavors, that can bring down a good airstrike or artillery quickly on bad actors firing unguided artillery rockets, and numerous other good methods the IDF uses. I don’t have a problem with that. Punishing a whole population in Lebanon however is ruining the “good guy” image real real fast. Our ( U.S. ) blanket support every_day_all_the_time doesn’t make us look good either using the old tired “Israel has a right to defend themselves” words. They have a right to defend themselves. In all humanity, they don’t have a right to over-react and kill 50 or more civilians or destroy a whole countries economy given the kind of force that was used against the IDF by the bad guys.

This pretty much sums up some of my thoughts as well, although I feel it is important to realize other aspects which e.g. IluvtheF4E has mentioned.