Israel/Lebanon Situation (Merged)

i just saw footage on breakfast television of an F4 dropping an LGB over Beruit!

Good to see the f4 still going strong, I saw footage of one fireing out flares last night.

They are. Look at the photos of the destroyed Hizbollah hq in Beirut ! When killing a Hamas terrorist driving in a car with a Hellfire missile, Israel has used a much more expensive weapon, that is also much less effective, than using a cluster bomb from an F16. Israel is using precision ordanance in Lebanon today, while Hezbollah is exclusively targeting Israeli civilian towns and cities with unguided Kaytusha missiles.

At the same time, Hezbollah is fully aware of Israeli military targets, and has decided to target purposely instead, the Israeli civilian population, in lieu of attacking Israeli fixed military bunkers, troops (Israeli infantry, armor, and artillery; is not in the towns and cities of Sefat, Kiryat Shimona, Haifa, and Nahariya etc…), and arty etc…

Big deal on the comparison. PGMs or no, There are still in the area of 50 or more dead civilians in Lebanon that did nothing more than go about their daily life. Dropping over-passes and cratering roads in a dense population area ( one community there ) still will mean there is no way you are going to avoid killing innocents as opposed to the old saw of “trying your best….” or whatever is said in the current I_am_wearing_a_white_hat_and_doing_good mode claimed by the P.R. people of the op. Knowningly trying to destroy a whole economy… ( cratering runways,… destroying fuel at an airport…. dropping bridges.. cutting roads all with PGMs of some sort, destroying a tourism based economy is just way over the top. It’s a given that the weak Lebanon government doesn’t have control over everything in Lebanon concerning terrorists running around and showing the flag. So the logic here is that the “good guys” are just going to flat out punish a whole population as opposed to more sensible things. Where more sensible things envolve techiques they already have in place that work: example the stiff amount of recon assets, UAVs, and C2ISR of all flavors, that can bring down a good airstrike or artillery quickly on bad actors firing unguided artillery rockets, and numerous other good methods the IDF uses. I don’t have a problem with that. Punishing a whole population in Lebanon however is ruining the “good guy” image real real fast. Our ( U.S. ) blanket support every_day_all_the_time doesn’t make us look good either using the old tired “Israel has a right to defend themselves” words. They have a right to defend themselves. In all humanity, they don’t have a right to over-react and kill 50 or more civilians or destroy a whole countries economy given the kind of force that was used against the IDF by the bad guys.

i just saw footage on breakfast television of an F4 dropping an LGB over Beruit!

As you already know, China and Ehrahn have very good relations.

I didn’t know that mate actully but thank you for the information.

these terror groups won’t quit.

True. Their financing is made up of donations from Ehran (Hizbollah) and Saudi Arabia (Hamas). When multiple forms of alternative energy becomes available in the modern first-world countries, in the not too distant future, the petrol dollars of Ehran and Saudi Arabia will dry up.

Silkworm!! me wonders where they got that from then?

As you already know, China and Ehrahn have very good relations.

iran has nukes! 5 nuke bombs and you can not find israel on map anymore…

Science, technology, and innovation do not stand still.

You don’t make people love you by bombing their roads, power stations, airports, tv relay stations and other means of communications. As on the other side, you don’t do it by blowing up innocent people with suicide bombers or Katusha rockets either.

Agreed. Unfortunately one must respond, to deter even more terrorist acts.

What I do think could lead towards peace in that conflict is for Israel to have tight and secured borders while helping Lebanon and Palestine rebuilding their countries. And by secured borders I don’t mean building a Berlin wall through prosperous parts of occupied territory. They really need to let go of these areas.

Unfortunately, the whole conflict is fired up by jewish extremist settlements and on the other side Syria supported Hizbollah. Therefore, you will have to do everything you can to surpress support of these organizations. And as a sidenote, the pressure should be applied towards Syrian government who supports many of these terrorist actions – not the Lebanese people. Just my two cents though.

I love it when European commentators, feel Israel (as the stronger party) just needs to fall on their sword, suck it up, and give the lesser parties “rewards” for purposely committing terrorist acts on Israeli civilians. You did mention that other parties in the area, need to also give concessions to Israel. – If only Israel would pull out, we would have world peas. That was tried on many other occassions, that simply ended up doing nothing but strenghthen the other side.

The Israeli pull out of Azza, parts of the W. Bank, and S. Lebanon, has brought no benefit for Israel. The multiple terrorist groups, have simply regrouped and resupplied, and enjoyed more areas of sanctuary. Israel had far more security under Begin and Shamir, than it had under Peres and Barak.

The problem is where Israel is located. It is very nice to apply European ideals of freedom and negotiations to the area and problems at hand today. Unfortuately the American, Canadian, Australian, New Zealand, Japanese, and European style of free culture and government, do not apply at all, in the Arab Middle East.

In the Arab Middle East in the past and today, you have governments that are made up exclusively of military dictatorships, nepotistic military dictatorships, monarchies, and religious fundamentalist oligarchies. None of these governments have organized legal opposition, free press, democracy, free elections, and religious tolerance etc…

With these type of governments, it makes it very difficult or impossible, to find any free European-style peaceful solution to the problem.

After israeli/US response maybe you could scrape the remains of iran with a spatula.

U know whats gonna be hilarious, it’s gonna be hilarious if it all does kick off and Turkey – a majority Muslim nation – allows the IDF to stage operations form its soil or even lends a hand with giving Iran and Syria an all mighty kick up the u know what….then this “it’s a war against Islam” crap will shoot itself in the foot won’t it…

U know, I once offered my support to the Arab/Muslim members on this forum when it came to debates like this but I retract all previous support.

And if Iran and Syria do start lobbing missiles at Israel I would imagine the residents of Tehran and Damascus would soon be running for their lives, whats the Syrian Air Force and its barely airworthy fighter force gonna do? If the Syrian Air Force is all mighty then why the blazes isn’t it establishing a no fly zone over Lebanon?…oh that’s right I forgot, they don’t need to cos the hand of God will appear and swat the IDF from the sky, blah de blah de blah and c**p

iran has nukes! 5 nuke bombs and you can not find israel on map anymore…

Silkworm!! me wonders where they got that from then?

Looks like it was a Silkworm that hit the gunboat….not a drone.

Israel should do everything in its power to prevent civilian casualties, unless the Israelis wish to share the same category as the groups they are trying to defeat.

They are. Look at the photos of the destroyed Hizbollah hq in Beirut ! When killing a Hamas terrorist driving in a car with a Hellfire missile, Israel has used a much more expensive weapon, that is also much less effective, than using a cluster bomb from an F16. Israel is using precision ordanance in Lebanon today, while Hezbollah is exclusively targeting Israeli civilian towns and cities with unguided Kaytusha missiles.

At the same time, Hezbollah is fully aware of Israeli military targets, and has decided to target purposely instead, the Israeli civilian population, in lieu of attacking Israeli fixed military bunkers, troops (Israeli infantry, armor, and artillery; is not in the towns and cities of Sefat, Kiryat Shimona, Haifa, and Nahariya etc…), and arty etc…

I think everything has gone bad after the presindent that i cant rember right now the name of who had massive surgery and is still in hospital.

Except on the playground, 10 times as many innocents nearby don’t get killed when the bully responds.

Dear Member,

What you have stated is what privately many in the West military call “The Islamic Kings-X”. Basically that anyone (nonMoslem) going to war with a Moslem state can not fight wars as wars are fought. For example during the Gulf War the Moslem world was upset because Israel was threatening to retaliate over the launch of SCUDs and the US was bombing retreating Iraq Army units, etc.

But the following explains what the Moslem world does not understand and should be made to understand (ie along with the fact you can not reject the Geneva Convention 1949 and then demand other abide by it).

“This is so little in the spirit of surrender as to seem like mockery of
triumph. If steps were taken to curb them, they had only themselves to
blame. War is not a game where there is everything to win and nothing to
loose. Those who appeal to the law of force should not complain if the
decision is final.” (Joshua L. Chamberlain as governor of Maine when the
defeated South yelped about the purposed 13th and 14th Amendment to the
Constitution and wanted to return to the STAUS QUO and reconstruction was impossed on those states trying to return the blacks to quasi-slavery).

Jack E. Hammond

compare Iraq today and iraq in saddam time.

You will notice the diffrences.

Answer my question.

Although the occupation has lead to some very bad consequences (personally I’m very skeptic about it), I find it impossible to defend Saddam Hussein and the bad things his regime did.

Imagine israelis come and occupy your land and kick you out of your homeland and do not let you come back . What you gonna do? sure you gonna fight for your right.

Indeed, but not by firing unguided rockets at civilian targets. Nothing constructive will be achieved by that. All it does is to provoke the Israelis into more offensive operations which, until they get more effective, will strenghten Hizbollah’s resolve to continue with their efforts. It’s a wheel of cr@p.

I wonder why you guys not speaks about Those plaestinian children who get murdered by israeli amy!

I for one haven’t had any reason to bring up that issue yet, but that doesn’t mean that I don’t have it in mind. The Israelis’ hands are far from clean, just like the hands of the Hizbollah and other organizations in the theater. Have IDF and IDF/AF units intentionally targeted civilian personnel? I think it’s nearly impossible to tell through the media. The objective truth can be very hard to identify and isolate from everything that is not true.

I predict that by sundown Sunday the Israelis will have established a buffer zone 50 km into southern Lebanon and Southern Syria. Syria will be included in retaliation for acting as the conduit for Iranian arms and money to the Hezbollah terrorists attacking Haifa from southern Lebanon. If the Syrians want to go hard, that Israelis will be sitting in Damascus a week from today. If the Iranians want to send “volunteers”, we’ll see F-15Is over Tehran and Qom in 3 weeks.

Dear Member,

That is the last thing Israel wants to do. It is what Hezbollah wants. They are ready with sucide antiarmor units, etc. Again, they may but I doubt it. More likely they will invade Syrias border area with Lebanon and seal it off. Also, how would the F-15I fly to Iran?

Jack E. Hammond

Viper, negotiation only works with reaonable humans.

Did you read my previous post?

If hezbollah has no qualms about hiding behind there own civilians whose life they endanger why should israel or the rest of the world give a damn about how many lebanese/hezbolla die.

No one should give a damn about how many Lebanese civilians die. Israel should do everything in its power to prevent civilian casualties, unless the Israelis wish to share the same category as the groups they are trying to defeat.

I don’t disagree…but how will it be done?

While military power can sometimes be the solution to certain immediate problems, I also think we need to work with a more distant perspective. We need to focus on the different roots and dynamics of terrorism; to identify and understand what the hell lies behind all of it. Personally I’m not sure where to start or how to do it, but I’m sure there is a way, however long and difficult it may be.

There will most likely always be individuals who are prepared to dig up virtually any reason in order to justify terrorism. But in order for these individuals to get many, to get organized, resourceful and to work at large, there probably has to be some public support involved, right? We need to locate, identify and work against the things which provide these parts of the public with reasons to embrace terrorism. When it comes to e.g. the Gaza Strip, this should be getting obvious.

I realy have no idea of what you’re trying to say.

Who is we? Your profile doesn’t say who you are or where your are.

This clown is probably the same “guy” as “ih8bush” and “English-something or other” (among others).

Iran has a bad reputation for torture.
Humm, Iran and the USA have then at least one point in common !

Israel too