Israel/Lebanon Situation (Merged)

And of course you know it all :rolleyes:

No, I just happen to have seen what doesn’t work*.

You don’t make people love you by bombing their roads, power stations, airports, tv relay stations and other means of communications. As on the other side, you don’t do it by blowing up innocent people with suicide bombers or Katusha rockets either.

What I do think could lead towards peace in that conflict is for Israel to have tight and secured borders while helping Lebanon and Palestine rebuilding their countries. And by secured borders I don’t mean building a Berlin wall through prosperous parts of occupied territory. They really need to let go of these areas.

Unfortunately, the whole conflict is fired up by jewish extremist settlements and on the other side Syria supported Hizbollah. Therefore, you will have to do everything you can to surpress support of these organizations. And as a sidenote, the pressure should be applied towards Syrian government who supports many of these terrorist actions – not the Lebanese people. Just my two cents though.

Cliff

* I have served as a platoon commander in a european armed force, stationed in Beirut.

Hezbollah was created by the Iranian Revolutionary Council at the direction of Ayatollah Khomeni in 1982. Hezbollah is led by Iranians, manned primarily by Shiites, receives the bulk of its funding from the Iranians (and from sale of heroin, grown in the Bekka valley, to Europeans), receives its weapons from Iran, and takes its orders from Iran. They are surrogate war-fighters that the Iranian government can deny, but they 100% do the bidding of the Iranian government.

The closest western equivalent would be the KGB and CIA during the Cold War.

I do not see any reason for name-calling Cliff, especially in response to a valid point. If the Lebanese people, and Palestinians for that matter, want peace, then embracing terrorism is not the way to go about it. Israel cannot sit back and watch as its people are murdered by terrorists – they must do everything within their power to stop terrorists striking Israel, and punishing those who help them.

People do not have to be ‘desktop war mongers’ to support the Israeli position – a final and lasting peace will not come through ceasefires or combat. Only through peace treaties being imposed upon the Palestinians, who have been found unwilling to negotiate in good faith (witness the entire roadmap issue, where the Palestinians want Israel to give in to all their demands, on the basis that the Palestinians might eventually stop the rocket attacks and homicide bombings). The solution may be to simply force the terms of the Camp David agreement on the Palestinians – if they will not sort things out for themselves, someone else will have to.

That’s the common opinion of desktop war mongers.

I don’t expect you to understand the psychology of war because you seem far too infantile for that. But eventually when you grow older and perhaps serve abroad in a peace keeping mission you’ll understand that war offensive actions in the Palestin/Lebanon/Israel conflict is just as effective as using kerosene to put out a fire.

Regards,
Cliff

And of course you know it all :rolleyes: Next you’ll be telling us appeasement is the only way that can “truly” work. :rolleyes:

That was already tried at Camp David, Taba, and another request to continue negotiations (time frame late 2000 to Jan 01). Arafat refused requests by Clinton and Barak in Jan 2001, to open up negotiations again. Arafat went instead, to visit the President of Tunisia ! Jan 01 was the very end of the Clinton presidency.

Are you comparing a multi-party democracy, to a group that has embraced just a corrupt oppressive military dictatorship, and that has just voted in a theological fundamentalist terrorist oligarchy ?

Israel has built Palestinian universities, paid for Arab healthcare, welfare, and schooling. The Palestinians have textbooks in public schools (paid for by the EU), that encourage terrorist attacks on Israeli civilian targets, for the sole purpose of becoming a martyr and finding 73 virgins in heaven. Where are the Israeli textbooks, encouraging Israeli students and soldiers, to kill Palestinian terrorists and or civilians ?

they dont have to… they just watch the news and see 200 tanks surrounding a town, or Apaches and F-16s bombing runways or TV stations.

I thought it was 72 virgins? Inflation is taking its toll…

good one ! 😀

There is no doubt that Israel can respond to Hizbollahs actions. They can, and they’re often eager to do so. Nevertheless it’s plain stupidity.

Hizbollah wants confrontation with Israel – fact is, they want to get rid of the whole state of Israel. So they take a couple of soldiers as prisoners and Israel makes a speedy response. The fact that Israel bombs a civilian airport which happens to be the only way out of Lebanon at the moment is just a minor problem. Same goes for those power stations they use to take out during such operations making parts of Beirut pitch dark and the average lebanese loosing all his frozen food etc. Or the usual sonic booms that occurs over Beirut, causing the whole Beirut to wake up each night for days or even weeks.

So what Israel does is that it is punishing the whole country of Lebanon because of Hizbollah actions. And if you expect the lebanese to worship Israel for this you’re dead wrong. They get even more mad at israelis making Hizbollah recruitment a piece of cake.

Good. Then they kill those too. Eventually they’ll get the point that “hey maybe being a terrorist isn’t such a bright idea”.

I thought it was 72 virgins? Inflation is taking its toll…

There is no doubt that Israel can respond to Hizbollahs actions. They can, and they’re often eager to do so. Nevertheless it’s plain stupidity.

Hizbollah wants confrontation with Israel – fact is, they want to get rid of the whole state of Israel. So they take a couple of soldiers as prisoners and Israel makes a speedy response. The fact that Israel bombs a civilian airport which happens to be the only way out of Lebanon at the moment is just a minor problem. Same goes for those power stations they use to take out during such operations making parts of Beirut pitch dark and the average lebanese loosing all his frozen food etc. Or the usual sonic booms that occurs over Beirut, causing the whole Beirut to wake up each night for days or even weeks.

So what Israel does is that it is punishing the whole country of Lebanon because of Hizbollah actions. And if you expect the lebanese to worship Israel for this you’re dead wrong. They get even more mad at israelis making Hizbollah recruitment a piece of cake.

Did Russia sell the Iranians the TOR yet? Israel would be in some serious **** if they even try anything with Iran. Not cause of the the TOR or anything, but Iran actually has *some* weapons.

So does Israel. And they’re better too. :diablo:

Except on the playground, 10 times as many innocents nearby don’t get killed when the bully responds.

That is unfortunate.

Obviously Hizbollah does not care about the 10 innocents who will be killed.

Or maybe they do ! – After all the stupid true believers, will find 73 virgins in heaven.

1981 Israel did not need permission to fly thru Jordan or Saudi Arabia to swack the Osirak nuclear reacator in Iraq. They just flew thru the airspace anyways. The new F-15I and F-16I with CFT have the legs to hit Iran. Godspeed to the Israel Air Force.

if they wasnt so dammed aggressive and give back land that dosnt belong to them, give Palastine its indapendence

That was already tried at Camp David, Taba, and another request to continue negotiations (time frame late 2000 to Jan 01). Arafat refused requests by Clinton and Barak in Jan 2001, to open up negotiations again. Arafat went instead, to visit the President of Tunisia ! Jan 01 was the very end of the Clinton presidency.

the Isrealies and Arabs are as bad as one another..

Are you comparing a multi-party democracy, to a group that has embraced just a corrupt oppressive military dictatorship, and that has just voted in a theological fundamentalist terrorist oligarchy ?

Israel has built Palestinian universities, paid for Arab healthcare, welfare, and schooling. The Palestinians have textbooks in public schools (paid for by the EU), that encourage terrorist attacks on Israeli civilian targets, for the sole purpose of becoming a martyr and finding 73 virgins in heaven. Where are the Israeli textbooks, encouraging Israeli students and soldiers, to kill Palestinian terrorists and or civilians ?

A disaster for us. The average U.S. citizen has no say in foreign policy. Our policy is dominated by AIPAC and this next abomination….

These people are ruining our foreign policy, er…. what little we have left. Not very “christian” to bomb civilians endlessly, drop bridges, break major airport runways etc etc etc just over a few kidnapped soldiers. But this is our lot in life. Our foreign policy will be litterly written by the hand of the chosen people, with the backing of wacked christo-fundies.

Add this to the already dominating AIPAC and we are screwed.

Read this…

Christian Group to Advocate More Support For Israel

http://www.washingtontimes.com/national/20060712-114540-2037r.htm

We complain about the Chicoms and Russia giving a downcheck on the NK UN resolution yet we veto UN meassures helping out a country that kills 50 or more civilians in Lebanon and counting, just because a small border incident done by 4th generation warfare and not 2nd generation warfare. Dumb… dumb dumb. On any particular day if we aren’t ruining our image in the M.E. , Israel picks up the slack for us and makes us look even more stupid.

LOL

AIPAC is not the only lobby running around on the hill !

People need to know that.

Ah yes Abu Ghraib. My god they put bags over people’s heads and took PICTURES. Can’t get more gruesome than that can you? :rolleyes: Surely it’s the worst torture mankind has come up with yet. To call what amounts to not a hell of a lot more than frat initiation BS “torture” is to demean all those who have actually BEEN tortured.

You have to stop watching Fox news. You sound like Sean hannity and Bill O Reilly.

This thread and forum is not about American and their torturing ways but let me point you to certian other events alot along before 911 which might point you to the fact that americans have tortured and tortured as state policy as well :

American civil war — burning down of entire city of Atlanta and mass rape and killing of civilians. No to mention carnage by sherman in other southern cities just to dispirit the men away from home fighting under the leadership of Lee.

Vietnam and Cambodia —- google and you’ll find tons of stuff.

Latin America–Chile in particular. Look it up.

Moderator Message

Gentlemen,

I have just been through this thread and edited and deleted a number of postings containing what I considered to be insulting personal remarks aimed at other members. I won’t name names on this occasion – the culprits know who they are.

Anyone – and I mean anyone – who cannot express their opinion without insulting other members or feels that they are in some way exempt from the site owner’s rules is, quite simply, posting on the wrong site. Those who persist in doing so will be banned from posting in here.

The majority of you demonstrate that it is perfectly possible to hold strong views and express them robustly while still showing respect to members who hold different views, and to you I extend my thanks and my apologies for disturbing your debate.

GA

The state of Israel is actually very successful by itself, the US military aid merely serves to partially offset the fact that Israel has some very unfriendly neighbors. Israel has been building good relations with Jordan and Egypt (to a slightly lesser extent) for many years, and to be honest, if Arafat had accepted the deal offered in 2000, then things would be a bit more stable now. The problem came when the Palestinians elected a terrorist organisation to be their government – Hamas is a terrorist organisation, and no number of votes cast will change that fact. Would Al Qaeda be acceptable if it got elected?

As for the Israeli strike upon the airport, it was entirely necessary to prevent the moving of the hostages to Iran, as has happened before. It will not take long to repair, but long enough that transferring the hostages will not happen by plane.

As for all who advocate releasing all the terrorists in Israeli prisons, it is important to remember why those individuals are in prison – release them now, and they will be carrying out terrorism tomorrow. Also, any time you negotiate with terrorists, you legitimise their terrorism, and that is why the west’s ‘we do not negotiate with terrorists’ policy actually works.

Abu G was a lot worst then just putting bags and taking pictures however it was an incedent that was played by a few sick and rotten minds and by a lack of managerial oversight through a wide spectrum of offices rather then something that is state policy,Comparing abu G to something like state sponsored pelting or being wipped to death just because you played soccer is only the fashion of an agenda.

You are very funny – it is about israel and the arabs, according to you, and you bring up the case of Iran!? Well I have news for you mate, Iran is not an arab country – but dont worry, I dont expect you to understand this.

Now, as to the US and torture goes, I am the one on planet earth. Above and beside the Abu ghraib case.

Ah yes Abu Ghraib. My god they put bags over people’s heads and took PICTURES. Can’t get more gruesome than that can you? :rolleyes: Surely it’s the worst torture mankind has come up with yet. To call what amounts to not a hell of a lot more than frat initiation BS “torture” is to demean all those who have actually BEEN tortured.

good one

However false it may be.