Israel/Lebanon Situation (Merged)

Since this is “suppose” to be a forum on military aviation I will keep my post in that context. I hope the airmen of the IDF/AF deliver the anger of the people of Israel to the terrorist of Hamas/Hezbollah with the same tenacity in Operation Moked in 1967. Put warheads on foreheads IDF/AF!!!!!

*A current F/A-18 Ordnanceman

It is no secret the lobbying done inviting the US’s immediate rallying to the cause, nor a secret of the New York opposition and lobbying behind Joseph Kennedy.

I realy have no idea of what you’re trying to say.

It is simple. We will win of course. We are stronger because we tolerate, We are stronger because we are not consumed with hatred. We are stronger as we have the weapons to hold why we force you to negotiate.

Who is we? Your profile doesn’t say who you are or where your are.

Hi

Funny enough Britain was not invited into the war, it invited itself on behalf of those who coudn’t prevent it.

It is no secret the lobbying done inviting the US’s immediate rallying to the cause, nor a secret of the New York opposition and lobbying behind Joseph Kennedy. The installation of Isreal is due wholly to the reaction and realisation of the horror of what was eventually disclosed regarding the true Nazi horror. That guilt is not felt by all Americans of course, but by those who knew they could have done more but uninformedly chose not to.

We are just fed up of the lunacy being shown by official US policy.

What lunatic said “they have the right to defend themselves”. herby in one simple ignorant moment legitamised every and all before actions of those trying to bomb they way out of oppression. Probably the same lunatic who bombed completely the wrong nation complaining of terryists, when none of them came from, lived or had any form of funding from Iraq. Probably the same lunatic who quoted an axis of evil, or the one who said it was the American Jihad as if the concept is entirely legitamate depending on your belief, as of course is the concept of evil, after all there is only one God and all everyone else must be evil.

It is simple. We will win of course. But I wish but do not prey, that we will win due to our strengths not simply due to the strength we deploy.

We are stronger because we know better. We are stronger because we tolerate, We are stronger because we are not consumed with hatred. We are stronger as we have the weapons to hold why we force you to negotiate.

Lol

You have to laugh.

When you give an inch they take a mile. True sitting with 3000 ‘military’ prisoners, they take 3 and whoa all hell breaks lose, how dare they take a mile.

Evey time you negotiate you make them stronger. Good one, try it with your wife, evey time you simply ignor her watch the impliments get bigger and bigger. Try negotiation by just chucking 3000% more bombs back over the fence.

Ever time you use appeasment you make the problem bigger. I suppose retaliation is out of the question then. How about complaining for years how terryists target civilians, so when they actually take a military guy you emplode with anti appeasement measures.

Life in Northern Ireland is improving all the time, there they even discuss housing policy with terryists. There they have installed a democracy without the generous aid of an US invasion, There they actually respect democracy if the people democ they wish the terryists to politically represent them, after all appeasment with aggressors is poor policy.

Funny in Northern Ireland whenever there was a terryist bomb, we did not invade the paymasters, shhhhesh it was still legal to support the terryists of IRA in NewYork until 2001.

Lets just get over the American slownest to get involved in WWII, and the guilt when they realised they could have prevented the holocaust or at least lessoned the impact and sheer numbers. Lets just remember what it was that caused the holocaust, ignorance and intollerance, mixed with bullies. If it is religion then in one religion at least they talk of turning the other cheek practice what you fight for. The worlds troubles and the whole escallation of extremism, was unwisely engineered or at best allowed when it suited. You reap what you sow.

It does not take much further movement in evolution to understand the issue will not go away until you make the first, painfull and hard move towards engaging in dialogue, even if your view is theirs is total anialation of you, because for sure that is what is feared or felt on both sides. If the person who claims to be leader of the free and democratic world, is not big or intelligent enough to realise this simple truth, then we have to rely on his people to turn his mind set around.

Yep no hope is there.

What a shame ignorance under a dictator is as bad as ignorance under democracy.

Not only was it legal to support IRA terrorists in the usa until 2001 but also the fact the usa courts refused to extradiate IRA guys who had exploded bombs, killed people, and fled to America. The reason given was that they would not get a fair trial in the UK.

Lets just get over the American slownest to get involved in WWII, and the guilt when they realised they could have prevented the holocaust or at least lessoned the impact and sheer numbers.

How? How was America late to the war? (I’m sure you wouldn’t want the US to go to a war if it weren’t invited! :D) In case you don’t know, the US waited until Germany declared war on it which followed the Japanese attack on America.
And how could it have prevented the holocaust?

And what did your country do to fight the Germans or protect the Jews?

Always ready to learn.

PS

I do not apologise for my poor spelling. I have self re-taught myself the word terryist, just to make sure most listeners hear what they are used to hearing.

Anyway poor spelling is like poor diction, perfectly normal and acceptable as long as you shrug smirk and pause just as long as they say you should in the script.

I also just smacked my little brother over the head with my swivel chair, he was about to steal one of my biscuits. I was informed today that it is okay to defend my property.

Lol

You have to laugh.

When you give an inch they take a mile. True sitting with 3000 ‘military’ prisoners, they take 3 and whoa all hell breaks lose, how dare they take a mile.

Evey time you negotiate you make them stronger. Good one, try it with your wife, evey time you simply ignor her watch the impliments get bigger and bigger. Try negotiation by just chucking 3000% more bombs back over the fence.

Ever time you use appeasment you make the problem bigger. I suppose retaliation is out of the question then. How about complaining for years how terryists target civilians, so when they actually take a military guy you emplode with anti appeasement measures.

Life in Northern Ireland is improving all the time, there they even discuss housing policy with terryists. There they have installed a democracy without the generous aid of an US invasion, There they actually respect democracy if the people democ they wish the terryists to politically represent them, after all appeasment with aggressors is poor policy.

Funny in Northern Ireland whenever there was a terryist bomb, we did not invade the paymasters, shhhhesh it was still legal to support the terryists of IRA in NewYork until 2001.

Lets just get over the American slownest to get involved in WWII, and the guilt when they realised they could have prevented the holocaust or at least lessoned the impact and sheer numbers. Lets just remember what it was that caused the holocaust, ignorance and intollerance, mixed with bullies. If it is religion then in one religion at least they talk of turning the other cheek practice what you fight for. The worlds troubles and the whole escallation of extremism, was unwisely engineered or at best allowed when it suited. You reap what you sow.

It does not take much further movement in evolution to understand the issue will not go away until you make the first, painfull and hard move towards engaging in dialogue, even if your view is theirs is total anialation of you, because for sure that is what is feared or felt on both sides. If the person who claims to be leader of the free and democratic world, is not big or intelligent enough to realise this simple truth, then we have to rely on his people to turn his mind set around.

Yep no hope is there.

What a shame ignorance under a dictator is as bad as ignorance under democracy.

Terrorism can never be legitimate, and the suggestion that Israel should give in to terrorist demands is actually quite ridiculous. Unfortunately, a lot of people do not understand that when you give an inch, they will demand a mile – any time you negotiate with terrorists, you make them stronger. Any time you use appeasement, you just make the problem much bigger.

I don’t disagree…but how will it be done? Unlike Nazi Germany or Imperial Japan, these terror groups won’t quit. They put hate (not pragmatism…i.e. “we’ll all have better lives if we get along”..) above all else, and you can never destroy it.
For every terrorist you kill, there wil be another to eventually take his place. Recruiting doesn’t seem to be a problem with today’s media. And people will only hear what they want to..if they’re told enough by Al Jezerra, a local group or leader, or whoever…that they’ve been wronged, Israel is bad, the “West” is bad, they’ll believe it. Backj in university, I had a couple of Saudis in my journalism class and they showed me magazines that painted Israel in a bad light. When I asked if it was a balanced view or asked how credable it was…they could only respond ..”it’s printed here.”
Even for these guys…whom I assume must be near the top of Saudi society to attend university overseas… they couldn’t get over the idea that “if it’s printed it MUST be true.”

The west can say they’re good guys all they want, but the majority of the people who eventually became radicalized…doin’t have the skills or interest to do any independant thinking on the issue. If they’re told the US is the “great satan”, the “Jews started the tsunami”, or anything else…they’ll believe it.

I’m not sure if the people of the mid-east will get to the point (by education or cynicism) that the people of the Soviet Union eventually got to…that they could see what they were being force fed was hogwash and they eventually rebelled.
As long as people preach intolerance and hate, this stuff will continue.

I think it is also important to separate the issues of Hizbollah and Hamas – both are terrorist groups, but very different as well. Hamas are radical Islamic terrorists, with a mad loathing of Israel, but fundamentally they have reasons for their terrorism. In contrast, Hizbollah are just a rent-a-terrorist for Iran, as shown by the whole current mess – Iran gives the orders, and they carry them out, with no thought for what they are doing to Lebanon.

Terrorism can never be legitimate, and the suggestion that Israel should give in to terrorist demands is actually quite ridiculous. Unfortunately, a lot of people do not understand that when you give an inch, they will demand a mile – any time you negotiate with terrorists, you make them stronger. Any time you use appeasement, you just make the problem much bigger.

LOL

AIPAC is not the only lobby running around on the hill !

People need to know that.

No, it is just the most dangerous one.

Where has it been okayed? Please provide details.

Heck, the Supreme Couirt just ruled the terrorists (which is what they are…they are not part of an official Army, let alone signers of the Geneva Convention) can have access to US civil courts and the Defense Department is goint to treat everyone like they were from an army and signed onto the GC.

That should help point out that in the US the rule of law still applies. Not so with a bunch of masked men who see nothing wrong with kidappings and bombings.

Time to read something other than anti-American propaganda. 😀

Just to put it in perspective if we were sawing of heads for CNN they might have a point.

the US has set up several detention centres (including Gitmo but not only) where it has been ruled ok to torture people..

Where has it been okayed? Please provide details.

Heck, the Supreme Couirt just ruled the terrorists (which is what they are…they are not part of an official Army, let alone signers of the Geneva Convention) can have access to US civil courts and the Defense Department is goint to treat everyone like they were from an army and signed onto the GC.

That should help point out that in the US the rule of law still applies. Not so with a bunch of masked men who see nothing wrong with kidappings and bombings.

Time to read something other than anti-American propaganda. 😀

watching the news tonight, the israeli bombs dropping on beirut airport and Apaches causing havoc, it made me think… i just can not understand how the rest of the world just sits back and observes… can you just imagine if it was say North Korea doing the same to South Korea or Iran bombing Kuwait. i wonder then if we would just sit back then…. unbelivable.. them Israelis can really get away with murder cant they…

If another country (for agruments sake, Ireland or France) let a group openly operate in its borders to conduct attacks on England, would you feel the same way?
Would the EU urge the UK to respond in moderation?
Israel has given up a lot of territory in return for the promise of peace.
First the Palestinian authority elects a group (to put it mildly) witt terror ties, then these NGOs attack them.
Can you see why they’re probably a bit ticked off?
I’m not saying they’re right, but there is more to this than the “Israel is wrong” factions are willing to admit.

Viper, negotiation only works with reaonable humans. Here israel is left dealing with rabid islamic radicals. If hezbollah has no qualms about hiding behind there own civilians whose life they endanger why should israel or the rest of the world give a damn about how many lebanese/hezbolla die.

There seems to be a lot of media garbage about disproportionate response. what exactly is proportionate response? Are they saying israel should have kidnapped 3-4 hamas and hezbollah for ransom? Israel is doing everything to protect its citizens and soldiers which is very comendable. All the terrorists need to do is to return the israeli soldiers or watch there bretheren die…its that simple really.

Good. Then they kill those too. Eventually they’ll get the point that “hey maybe being a terrorist isn’t such a bright idea”.

Or maybe they’ll just keep coming and coming and coming and coming…

History has shown that trying to have good faith negotiations with the Palestinians and their terrorist leaders is foolishness.

It is also a fact that e.g. the situation on the Gaza Strip provides breeding grounds for extremism. I’m not saying that the Israelis are the only ones to blame in this context, but it is certain that they carry a substantial responsibility.

Hizbollah’s recent actions against Israel, including both the kidnapping of IDF personnel as well as the rocket attacks against civilian targets, are all very condemnable and must be dealt with. While part of Israel’s military response may be justified in some areas, it also shares a common effect with Hizbollah’s actions: It adds fuel to the fire; momentum to the wheel, whichever way you want to put it.

There is a certain mechanism at work here, and it is important to understand it. You can’t clean out grass root terrorism solely through the use of military force. It will, among other things, continue to feed the notorious circle of violence. As sferrin points out, it is also clear that appeasement is likely to fail in the face of extremists.

While the use of military power sometimes becomes necessary in the efforts against terrorism, it is also important to work with a more distant perspective. One must attempt to identify and work against the roots of the problem; the very factors by which terrorism exists. How do you expect reduce public support to terrorism when your efforts to defeat that same terrorism frequently cause suffering and spark anger within the mentioned public? The mechanism should be apparent.

We need more than military power in order to achieve a sustainable solution, or else the weed will just continue to grow.

I think Cliff Barnes has raised several valid points, some of which I support. No one should resort to personal attacks, though.

Guys over where? Iraq? Can you blame them?

Am I to understand that you do not have much to spare for neither Kurds or Shias, or is it just the person Saddam Hussein you admire, and not the actions of his regime?

compare Iraq today and iraq in saddam time.

You will notice the diffrences.

And what about the Hizbollah and certain Palestinian organizations? I hope you realize that this conflict is far from black and white.

As said before most of members in Hezbullah army are ” kick out palestinians”

Imagine israelis come and occupy your land and kick you out of your homeland and do not let you come back . What you gonna do? sure you gonna fight for your right.

I wonder why you guys not speaks about Those plaestinian children who get murdered by israeli amy!

If in israeli attacks civilians die , then sure in hezbullah attacks civilian die too. ( take in mind that israel army has much better and more accurate weapons than hezbullah )

No, I just happen to have seen what doesn’t work*.

You don’t make people love you by bombing their roads, power stations, airports, tv relay stations and other means of communications. As on the other side, you don’t do it by blowing up innocent people with suicide bombers or Katusha rockets either.

What I do think could lead towards peace in that conflict is for Israel to have tight and secured borders while helping Lebanon and Palestine rebuilding their countries. And by secured borders I don’t mean building a Berlin wall through prosperous parts of occupied territory. They really need to let go of these areas.

Unfortunately, the whole conflict is fired up by jewish extremist settlements and on the other side Syria supported Hizbollah. Therefore, you will have to do everything you can to surpress support of these organizations. And as a sidenote, the pressure should be applied towards Syrian government who supports many of these terrorist actions – not the Lebanese people. Just my two cents though.

Cliff

* I have served as a platoon commander in a european armed force, stationed in Beirut.

I have to agree with Phantom II here. While I respect your experience and what you did I disagree. You may not win the hearts and minds by blowing up roads and powerplants but it seems to be to the point where the choices are 1. You try to negotiate and they take advantage of you, do nothing to curb the terrorism problem, and hate you anyway or 2. You say to hell with caring if they like you or not and deal with the problem yourself. History has shown that trying to have good faith negotiations with the Palestinians and their terrorist leaders is foolishness. When the terrorism problem is so bad you feel you need to spend hundreds of millions of dollars to develope a laser system to protect you (THEL) then clearly talk is nothing but a waste of time.

U know whats gonna be hilarious, it’s gonna be hilarious if it all does kick off and Turkey – a majority Muslim nation – allows the IDF to stage operations form its soil or even lends a hand with giving Iran and Syria an all mighty kick up the u know what….then this “it’s a war against Islam” crap will shoot itself in the foot won’t it…

U know, I once offered my support to the Arab/Muslim members on this forum when it came to debates like this but I retract all previous support.

And if Iran and Syria do start lobbing missiles at Israel I would imagine the residents of Tehran and Damascus would soon be running for their lives, whats the Syrian Air Force and its barely airworthy fighter force gonna do? If the Syrian Air Force is all mighty then why the blazes isn’t it establishing a no fly zone over Lebanon?…oh that’s right I forgot, they don’t need to cos the hand of God will appear and swat the IDF from the sky, blah de blah de blah and c**p

You are very funny – it is about israel and the arabs, according to you, and you bring up the case of Iran!? Well I have news for you mate, Iran is not an arab country – but dont worry, I dont expect you to understand this.

At what point did I mention Iran? I’m talking Israel and the fighting the people they are currently fighting. Are Iranians directly involved in combating the Israelis at this point?

The better question is do you want me to help you pull your foot out of your mouth?

I never even referred to the Iranians as Arabs…..

You have to stop watching Fox news. You sound like Sean hannity and Bill O Reilly.

This thread and forum is not about American and their torturing ways but let me point you to certian other events alot along before 911 which might point you to the fact that americans have tortured and tortured as state policy as well :

American civil war — burning down of entire city of Atlanta and mass rape and killing of civilians. No to mention carnage by sherman in other southern cities just to dispirit the men away from home fighting under the leadership of Lee.

Vietnam and Cambodia —- google and you’ll find tons of stuff.

Latin America–Chile in particular. Look it up.

Actually compared to the nonsense CNN puts out, I find Fox to be one of the more balanced networks out there. Hannity & Colmes is a key example where upon the issues from both sides are debated…..but alas that is for another day.

As far as torture goes at no point did I say Americans have never tortured anybody, but if you’re going to bring up something as far back as the Civil War, then do we need to go through the entire world’s history to talk about who has tortured people? We’d be here all night and then some for the next decade….

My point is that America’s track record is FAR better than a lot of other nations and cultures can claim and if you don’t believe that then you’re oblivious to the facts. I don’t condone what happened at Abu Graib and I’m glad those responsible were held accountable for it……that’s a key difference as well….accountability. I don’t see regimes like those in Syria or Iran holding those responsible for such malicious acts responsible……

Don’t try and put the United States on the same level with nations like Iraq (during the Saddam era), Iran, Japan (during the WWII period), etc. because it’s simply not the case and you know it. Again let me repeat myself…..America is not innocent of torturing people, but compared to what has happened in certain other parts of the world throughout history, the things that have happened in America pale in comparison. This topic is point to discusson this thread anyway so let’s drop it….

Cliff,
Despite your experience, (and I respect you for your service to the country you are from) I have to completely disagree with your views. Let me reiterate what I’ve said a hundred times or more. Terrorists like Hamas and Hizbollah as well as certain countries like Syria don’t want to come to any agreements of talks about diplomacy…….they aren’t happy until Israel is destroyed. If you think that is not the case then you are gravely mistaken and only kidding yourself. Israel has made concessiosn in the past, and nothing has ever worked. Arafat’s inability to agree to anything regarding deals or peace processes, etc. comes to mind.

The only thing Israel can do is defend itself, and if that means rooting out the terrorists who attack them every day by going into the country where they are located then so be it. They aren’t deliberately targeting Lebanese civilians anyway. The terrorists are using the country of Lebannon as a shield of sorts, and the Isarelis are currently proving that it won’t work, and I applaud their efforts.

Nations like Syria and organizations like Hamas and Hizbollah are nothing but pure cowards, and as such, they must be dealt with accordingly.

To quote another poster……”God Speed to the IDF/AF and the IDF in general.” I hope they find every last one of those subhuman scum and wipe them out…..

No mercy. You don’t talk to a terrorist…..you put a bullet through his skull. I hope he enjoys his virgins…….lol.

Maybe guys over there hate hussein but I personaly think he was a good leader for iraq even he done some mistakes but overall he was good .

Guys over where? Iraq? Can you blame them?

Am I to understand that you do not have much to spare for neither Kurds or Shias, or is it just the person Saddam Hussein you admire, and not the actions of his regime?

Israel is using civilians as shield.

And what about the Hizbollah and certain Palestinian organizations? I hope you realize that this conflict is far from black and white.