N.H.S.

We have only gone off-track because your question is too simplistic. And as many of us have pointed out you cannot separate injuries into those for which the individual is responsible and the rest. I like your phrase “inconvenience to NHS staff”.:rolleyes: They are there to treat ill and injured people however inconvenienced they might feel!! In fact if they do feel inconvenienced they are in the wrong job.

Sorry, Linc, you will not drag us away from the can of worms you have opened.:)

I don’t anybody is getting het up.
Anyway. Back to the original question.

I don’t think it is getting off-topic either. Your original question asked whether those who deliberately choose to harm themselves should get treatment for free. Most, including myself, seem to be saying that it is impossible to make moral judgements on other’s lifestyles.

Or in other words

Do you think that people who, on a Friday or Sat night, and get stoned, or take drugs in such a quantity, and as a result have to be taken to Hospital to be treated, should pay for the treatment they recieve?.

No.

It is and health insurance doesn’t solve everything it makes problems.Affordability and levels of care just to name a few.

..thought that’s what NIs is for, or am I missing something?

Baz

Well Baz, Guess the answer is as tornado 64 stated, and be like the USA and other Countries, and take out health Insurance, would solve a lot of problems.
Jim.

Lincoln .7

Gents, We are way off track here, the question I posted was simple, can we keep it that way, without getting all het up.There has been too much of that on the forum lately.:eek:
Cheers.
Jim.

Lincoln .7

I was a coastguard for 18 years and as such would either leap over the cliffs or routinely call out other services to facilitate certain types of rescues on the coast around Newquay. In a good year we would have a hundred ‘shouts’ a year, of these there would be some, where members of the public would be drugged or drunk, cut off by the tide, requiring our assistance.
On some occasions, I’ve called out everything. Navy Sea King, Lifeboat(s), flank stations, Police and ambulance. On no occasions would money be the driving factor of a rescue.

Where would you start to formulate a bill for this? If you charge casualties for their treatment in a hospital (self inflicted or not) you will need to charge in all other sectors of the emergency services.

A Sea King would be £10k for just a ‘quickie’, then add on the above list and a rescue alone (before any hospital charges) could easily reach £30,000. It would end up being a total shambles. It would directly impact on future rescues knowing that the person you’re saving is going to be lumped with an enormous bill if you call out that chopper.

If you charge now in A&E drunks and druggies where are they going to get the money? A lot of druggies already commit crime to fuel their habit, hit them with a (say) £300 bill for their treatment, they will have to burgle at least 2 properties to pay it off………no one wins.

I agree with Moggy here, as much as I sympathise with you, I have been involved (from a different angle) and say police the pubs and clubs harder and jail drug traffickers.

Educate the end user.

Charging money won’t work.

Baz

So you would give treatment to me who smoked and gave up but not to someone who hasn’t given up. Even if they’ve paid the same amount of tax and NI. I see…..
We all pay for the NHS and we should all get treatment from it if required, regardless of what caused the injury/illness – who is going dare judge ME on MY lifestyle?

If a skydiver is injured who pays for that? He knew it carried a high risk of injury but he went and did it anyway?
Maybe the NHS shouldn’t pay for antenatal care – that is largely “self-inflicted”?

By your argument, anyone who does things that have known risks should pay more. Is that fair? And who decides what is more risky. Fraught with problems I reckon.

I’m still interested in this “line” where injury is self-inflicted. If a motorcyclist rides recklessly is he denied treament or dropped down the priority because it is self-inflicted? Or would he have to pay even though he may have paid his taxes all his life.
If a 50 year old goes on a booze bender and ends up in hospital would he have to pay as well, despite having already paid for his treatment many times over?
Much of what we do could be regarded as “self-inflicted” if you think that you have any control over your life.

the thing is in practicaly every other country in the world you have to have medical insurance
because there is no NHS and if insurers realise it was through drinks / drugs or irresponsible actions they can refuse to pay out

why should it be any difrent here ??

i attend hospitals regularly through work and observe cancer patients at the door with missing limbs , coughing lungs up etc , etc , yet they are still lighting up

why should others pay for these actions

i have every sympathy for those that give up and they should get free treatment but those that carry on ” well !!”

Arthur, If your going to ride a motorcycle like a pratt, you deserve to come a cropper, but in most cases it would be difficult to prove, Ever been to the Snake Pass and watched some of them on those bends?. if you had, I think you would agree with what I am saying, Taxes fully paid or whatever.As regards a 50 yrs old going on a bender, firstly he should have a good night out, enjoy himself , but not place himself in a position where he is causing an inconveniance to the NHS Staff.just because he is stoned out of his mind, and no doubt the next day wont even remember the night before.
Jim.

Lincoln .7

tornado64
You were the one that spoke about officers in this fashion,

they collect speeding fines quick enough off fully legal drivers

not me.

For a start they can’t be “fully legal” if they are speeding can they? All motorists need to do is stop making themselves a “soft target”; it isn’t difficult.

Creating a health service that judges others on their lifestyle is fraught with danger.

Should they not be attacking the cause of the needless waste of NHS resources, rather than treat the problem as an income source. Generally, the young do not care of the consequences. They’ve had a good time, and got another story to tell. It should really be enforced at a school level, where education is supposed to be taking place.

If “legal” drivers obeyed the damned speed limits of which they are fully aware then perhaps it would free up officers to catch other criminals.

.

wich officers would they be ??? the static cameras or the one man in a van

the realistic truth is the soft targets are a cash cow !!

there was a woman and her 2 yr old shot dead yesterday with neighbours playing hell with the police because they were warned and did nothing

still never mind he may have dragged 60 quid in off a fully legal motorist doing 37 in a 30 !!

If “legal” drivers obeyed the damned speed limits of which they are fully aware then perhaps it would free up officers to catch other criminals.

I’m still interested in this “line” where injury is self-inflicted. If a motorcyclist rides recklessly is he denied treament or dropped down the priority because it is self-inflicted? Or would he have to pay even though he may have paid his taxes all his life.
If a 50 year old goes on a booze bender and ends up in hospital would he have to pay as well, despite having already paid for his treatment many times over?
Much of what we do could be regarded as “self-inflicted” if you think that you have any control over your life.

Cheers tornado 64, that makes two of us that agree.:D
Jim.

Lincoln .7

:diablo:

yes they should !!

when young i drunk copious ammounts and i confess yes smoked whacky backy regular ( probably lost more in my fingernails than todays young smoke )

but i never once for one seccond inconvenienced others through it

the problem is todays irresponsible culture charge them 4 x’s the fee give bigger fines for drink related instances and watch it go down

but more important have an effective police force and legal system to enforce it

they collect speeding fines quick enough off fully legal drivers

lets see them get off their a*ses and actualy start dealing with crime

there were a couple of officers doing an health and safety assesment the other week before tackling someone

sorry but if you don’t like risk and don’t want to get in and sort things out maybe they should be accountants

How about road accidents as a result of getting stoned or being on drugs. The line is blurry and clearly you have never walked anywhere near that line.

Is your memory so short? You bragged not long ago about being part of gangs when you were younger and carrying knives which you wouldn’t have been afraid to use. Had you been injured in a gang fight which you entered of your own volition would you have paid for your treatment?

Regards,

kev35

Kev. I did not ever brag about about being in a gang and carrying, yes I was part of a gang and quite clearly stated I did NOT carry. Yes, I have been injured in a fight, and no, I didn’t need treatment. we wouldnt dare go to hozzy, as you would be classed as a wimp.

Lincoln .7

Hi Lincoln,
I used to smoke a similar amount of cigarettes and although I have NEVER been a heroine addict, I am addicted to morphine!! So been there and done it :eek::confused:

I had better VERY quickly explain my last.

For years I have been on morphine medication and after taking this medication for a period of time the patient unfortunately becomes addicted hence my comment.

Now the reason for my waffle is that to improve my quality of life I have cut back on my medication, the result being I am now in more pain than when taking the prescribed dosage but I am at least able to have an alleged intelligent conversation. However cutting back on the morphine meant going through what we call ‘cold turkey’ and trust me there is NO COMPARISON between this and the craving for a cigarette. The need for a puff is frustrating and can make the individual irritable, but cold turkey is just plain ‘oink’

Think of severe flu (not man flu) and then add a bit of discomfort on top of that. Screwing yourself up into the fetal position, get cramps in your legs, be all horribly sweaty and nauseous and you are starting to think about ‘cold turkey’ I am describing my symptoms and PLEASE do not think I am defending addicts that are addicted to taking illegal substances! I am NOT.

Right onto the nitty gritty of your post.

I can understand where you are coming from but perhaps disagree with the stand you take.

Might I suggest instead that we consider it an offence to get ‘Drunk and Incapable’ or the alternative of being ‘Drunk and Disorderly’

I hate it when folks inflict this condition on themselves and then take up valuable medical resources but we are where we are and have to deal with what we have.

Could we not consider placing these drunkards in a police cell and only if their condition warrants medical attention they receive it?

Once the person has received medical treatment then we cart them off back to my cell :diablo::diablo::diablo:

For what I have planned it will be all the better if they are sober because the only clothing they will have access to is a PINK boiler suit. If they needed medical treatment then I am guessing their condition was such that they were stripped off and put into a medical gown… That to would be pink (to embarrass them) When they leave hospital they are dressed in the pink boiler suit, they then have to scrub clean all soiled areas they or their like have defaced. Then once that is done they will be chained and taken into town where they will scrub down shop doorways, footpaths and any other locations that have been defaced!! Once the officer in charge is happy that all is clean and smelling of roses the culprits will go back to the police station where a decision would be made about any further punitive action!

I am just one of those that believe we should treat all NHS contributors to the service equally.

I keep wondering if I am too liberal to be Home Secretary :rolleyes::diablo:

Hi. I too having had cancer of the pancreas was put onto morphine and became addicted, but was fortunately able to be weaned off it, so I know what your saying, is true, but packing up smoking was harder.
Hope you can get clear one day.
Regards.
Jim.

Lincoln .7

How about road accidents as a result of getting stoned or being on drugs. The line is blurry and clearly you have never walked anywhere near that line.

Is your memory so short? You bragged not long ago about being part of gangs when you were younger and carrying knives which you wouldn’t have been afraid to use. Had you been injured in a gang fight which you entered of your own volition would you have paid for your treatment?

Regards,

kev35

So Lincoln.

Anyone injured in a car accident through drinking or excessive speed or a pedestrian knocked down when jaywalking (horrible expression) should have to pay for their treatment.

Perhaps you envision a society in which those you describe should be treated differently. Perhaps the medics code of Airway, Breathing and Circulation should be prefixed by Credit Card?

Regards,

kev35

Kev. Read my lips. I am referring to those that get stoned at the weekend, or take drugs, that are a continuos drain on our NHS.
I am only asking re those two subjects.Nothing else.
RTAs and the other things you stated, I am not bothered about, just deliberately self induced items as mentioned. Methinks we are sidetracking the initial question.
Jim.
Lincoln .7