They Should go for it IMHO and buy a cheaper single engined MRCA to complement it. May be cancel the Mirage 2000 upgrade and get Rafales in place as well.

US, Russia in race for IAF attack choppers deal

The US and Russia will face off for the deal to supply the Indian Air Force crucial attack choppers after two major competitors from Europe pulled out citing technical reasons. The mainstay attack helicopters of the two countries will arrive in India within two months and will be put through several rounds of gruelling tests.

What has left many surprised is that Eurocopter’s Tiger and Agusta’s A129 Mangusta have pulled out of the estimated $600 million contest and will not be coming for the field trials.

Sources said that Eurocopter decided not to take part months ago and did not respond to request for proposals issued by the IAF. Agusta, on the other hand, seems to have pulled out at the last minute after it assessed that the Mangusta would not be able to fulfill the requirements of the IAF field trials, which include hard landings in high-altitude areas.

The surprise exit of the two European choppers — considered to be highly competitive — will give an advantage to Boeing’s AH-64D Apache Longbow, which will compete with the Russian Mi 28 attack chopper.

Incidentally, the procurement process for the attack helicopters was cancelled last year after two American companies opted out of the competition saying they did not get adequate time to seek permission from Washington to take part in the tender. This had led to protests by other competitors, notably the Europeans, who complained that the competition was stalled to tilt it in the favour of the American companies.

In May last year, the tender was reissued — the first defence tender to be taken out by the re-elected UPA government.

“We hope to begin trials within the next 60 days. We are offering the latest version of the Apache, the AH-64 D Longbow, and are confident that it is well suited for Indian requirements,” Vivek Lall, Vice-President and Country Head, Boeing Defense Space & Security, told The Indian Express.

Russia is offering its latest-generation Mi 28 ‘Havoc’ helicopter, that was inducted by its armed forces in 2006.

While the first round of trials will take place in India, the IAF evaluation team will also travel to the US and Russia for a round of weapon trials.

The IAF is planning to initially procure 22 attack helicopters to replace its fleet of ageing Mi 35 attack choppers, which are nearing the end of their service life.

Source

IAF gets feel of latest Pak fighter aircraft

The Indian Air Force (IAF) has got a feel of Pakistan’s most modern fighter aircraft during a multi-nation exercise in France even before the aircraft have been delivered to the Pakistani Air Force (PAF).

Later this week, Pakistan will get its most modern fighter aircraft when the US delivers the first four of the advanced Block 52 F 16 aircraft as part of a deal to upgrade its military.

However, the IAF has sparred with the Block 52 version of the fighter — which is considered to be a generation ahead of the existing F 16 fleet of the PAF — during Exercise Garuda that is currently underway at the Istres Air Base in France. The IAF, which has deployed its SU 30MKI fighters for the exercise, has conducted aerial duels and joint missions to fully gauge the capabilities of the ‘enemy’ fighter. Pakistan is to get 18 of the Block 52 versions of the F 16 fighters under a deal with the US.

Sources said not only did IAF pilots get a feel of the operational characteristics of the fighter during the aerial war games but some pilots also got the chance to take sorties in the F 16 Block 52 aircraft of the Singapore Air Force that was part of the multi-nation aerial exercise involving India and France. A senior officer confirmed that this was also the first time that the IAF’s SU 30MKIs were conducting an exercise with three modern fighters — the Rafale, F 16 and the Mirage 2000-5.

“Over 60 missions have been successfully flown during the exercise. The six IAF SU 30MKIs along with the Mirage-2000-5 and Rafale and the F-16 were engaged in various air defence manouvres such as implementation of “no fly zones” and large force engagements during day and night,” IAF spokesperson Wing Commander Mahesh Upasani, who was present at the exercise, said.

The Indian fighters took part in missions to protect high value air borne assets like refuellers and AWACS. The SU 30MKIs also practised aerial refuelling with the French KC 135 aircraft. The multi-role Sukhoi fighters were also simultaneously deployed in defensive and offensive operations — a key capability of the heavy fighter aircraft.

Source

I agree! With MKI and Pak Fa / FGFA in future, fighters like EF, or Mig 35 which are meant, or limited to the same air superiority roles are very unlikely. That’s why we need a fighter that complements the them with capabilities,or qualities they don’t have and with LCA on the other end, meant for point defense and CAS, strikes must be the important point in MMRCA.
Rafale is the best choice here, with a much lower RCS than MKI, an excellent EWS, the best payload and numbers of weapon stations of all contenders, as well as good A2G weapons. Only the F18SH is possibly better in this role, especially if the full US weapon package is on offer.

Rafale has very low RCS as is demonstrated in recent exercises. But this is an advantage in A2A combat against fighter Radars, AWACS will pick it up all the same although not as far away as it would the MKI. The Gripen NG also have very low RCS.

Can the MKI do a strike mission in PAFs, or PLAAFs airspace now when both sides have AWACS support? No, the big RCS will limit it to strikes from distances with A2G missiles, but using its heavy bombloads will only be possible, when air superiority is gained. Exactly here the Rafale, or F18SH would offer IAF clear advantages, not only with another type of fighter, but also with more variety of weapons. The don’t offer not only heavy stikes like MKI, but will be effective for deep penetration, or SEAD missions too, where IAF is limited with older Jaguars at the moment.

It can easily in the case of PAF once Air Superiority is established. Like I said till we get full stealth fighters the AWACS and other ground assets will pickup all the 4+ gen fighters and they will have to fight their way through. By the way what Anti Radiation missile does Rafale use for SEAD ? The SH uses the HARM and MkI the KH 31P.

But we will have such an cost-effective fighter with the LCA, so what we need is something in between it and our heavy class fighters, that complements both in the roles where they don’t fit and that’s exactly what I pointed out above!

The only problem is some of the Medium fighters you are proposing costs more than our heavy fighters and possibly more than our future fifth gen fighters.

What national interest do we have with Russia apart from business? They need us as their main weapons customer, we need them as the biggest weapons supplier, same goes for oil, gas, or nuclear power plants. It’s all about making money and business and the US, or Europeans wants exactly the same!
India is the biggest market for arms now and that is the main reason why the US comes closer to us now, while still beeing one of Pakistans main allys. No matter which one of the big western vendors win, their fighters will be a big part of IAF for 3 or more decades, if that is not the key for a strategic partnership in the defense field, I don’t know what else.

Yes means you operate their weapons and you can have joint exercises. Which we do anyway. A change in U.S Administration will offer more to the Indo U.S relationship than buying X number F 18s.

No doubt that the Gripen is the most cost-effective choice and if that is the important requirement, I hope they will choose it, instead of F16IN, or Mig 35. But remains what it is, a point defense fighter with some slight improvements in strike over LCA maybe, but not comparable to Rafale, or F18SH. And if we need a fighter, to take out missile bases around Tibet for example, that threats our major cities, Gripen NG won’t be useful anymore.

With the range improvements in the NG the Gripen is more than a point defense fighter. But if range is the only parameter we are looking at we should have bought more MKIs or better still scrap the MRCA and buy F 15INs via FMS route. There you have a big fighter with more range,payload and weapons flexibility than MKI and very adept (better than Rafale or SH) at A2G as well.

If just another point defense fighter with some A2G capabilities and importance on cost-effectiveness would be the aim, IAF and MoD would have added numbers of Mirage 2000-5s years ago. But they didn’t and adds requirements like AESA radar, ToT, or high offsets and wanted dedicated weapon trials, as well take offs with full payload from Leh, which clearly hints that that they want way more right? Be it more capabilities of the fighters itself, or more side advantages for politics, or economy

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French fighters are expensive to buy and upgrade. Yes they may be realtively cheap to operate than other twin engined fighters, Imagine having a scenario when we have 150+ Rafales and for a future upgrade the French will be charging more than their original cost :rolleyes:

[QUOTE=Sancho78;1599237]Exaclty, they only are upgrades of older fighters, Gripen NG might also be an upgrade now, but still offers clear advantages.

My question is whether the expensive new fighters (Rafale & Eurofighter) are worth the money we spend on them. We already have an air superiority fighter in the MKI of which more can be purchased at cheaper costs.

But be it Gripen NG, Rafale, or EF, they are not heavy class fighters, that’s just a mistake some media reports makes, possibly because of the high MTOW, or payloads. In reality the Rafale is hardly heavier that the F16IN, with the only difference, that it has 2 engines, but that’s it. Also if I’m not wrong the F16IN can carry the same, or even more payload than the MKI, but I don’t think someone will confuse it as a heavy class fighter right?

I doubt the F 16 can carry as much as payload as any Flanker. The Eagle can carry more. When I say heavy it does not mean the weight or payload capability. I meant the Rafale/Eurofighter for example can do the MKIs job may be 10 or 15 percent better, but they cost 20%+ more and hence doesn’t offer any advantage.

What we need is a single engined fighter which is cheap to procure and operate to compliment the MKI, preferably with good multi-role capability. The MRCA order may indeed reach 200+ and for India 270+ MKI 200+ Rafale & 250+ FGFA is certainly overkill. The money spent on operating these fighters is better spent elsewhere.

The Gripen is only the most cost-effective choice, but it lacks behind in many areas that are important for us. Political/strategic advantages, ToT, co-developments for AESA radar, or Kaveri engine, sanction proofness, deep penetration strike capability and no operational naval version.
Not that its ab bad fighter, for point defence and strikes in lower ranges (Pakistan) it would be enough, but MMRCA is meant for more and aimed on PLAAF, not on PAF. And just like Sweden can’t be a strategic partner for Brazil, it can’t be it for India.

1. We are kidding ourselves if we really think we will get any strategic advantages by buying French, British or American fighters. I would even go further to say that the ongoing civil-nuclear trade with these respective countries are even more lucrative and could fetch more strategic support than 10 billion worth of fighters. A Purchase from Americans however will pave the way to more joint exercises and give access to U.S ranges.

2. The Required level of ToT obligations in the RFP is met by all competitors. I would say anything more would come at a price and I doubt SAAB will have anymore problems than Eurofighter in securing ToT permissions from the OEMs.

3. Buying weapons from a country doesn’t make you their strategic partner. We bought Russian, French and British planes in the past, but only Russians became our real strategic partners, the reason is because these partnerships are formed on the basis of national interest and not business.

4. I doubt IAF has any plans to bomb Beijing, in the worst case scenario of a limited border war with China the Gripen may prove the most effective of the lot because of its ability to take off from highways and quick turnaround and reload times. The new Raven radar/Meteor and Pirate derived IRST + very low RCS will make the Gripen very hard to fight for the PLAAF flankers with their huge RCS.

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I find it odd that India has chosen the Emb-145 if it has lower endurance than the SAAB 2000. The only reason may be that they want to the local radar on it.