JudwinThe comments on the ownership of logbooks stirred me to look at my own.
My own new career was almost entirely devoted to flight testing for an aircraft company,
The company required us to keep a log, there was however no company document covering this and we all used service logbooks scrounged by the Chief Test Pilots office from various sources.
I have three:
1) RCAF Form R65
2) RAF Form 414
3) ROYAL NAVY form S 1175
All of the above are official forms and follow the familiar pattern, more important is the statement;
This book is an official document and is the property of His/Her Majesty’s Government.
So, all service Aircrew logbooks filled in according to regulations as part of one’s duty, must be long to HMG.
In my own case as aircrew employed in industry, the books are not Official documents, and I can probably claim to be the custodian.
Private Pilots are obliged by the CAA to keep a logbook, but I think the ownership remains with the individual.
I am sure the CAA has a system for commercial aircrew.
Oh what a tangled web we weave!
All this means that as far as officialdom is concerned, the records of service aircrew can be controlled and if necessary withheld. Where they double as historical documents the museum’s are probably doing a fine job, although one or two (you know who they are) do regard them as a source of revenue, sometimes excessive.
The two logbooks I have quoted i.e. Penrose and Gellatly, fall into the industrial aircrew category.
I do know that ‘Hal’ Penrose was not a meticulous logkeeper and that nothing ever surfaced after he died.
I think we have come to my purpose for this thread. One or two famous logbooks have appeared on the BBC ‘Antiques Roadshow’ and very high prices have been quoted. If the collectors world can do more to make people realise that aircrew logbooks are historical evidence, as yet untouched by computers, and frequently found to be valuable, we will have struck a blow for history.
Sorry about the ear bashing, but I think it is all relevant.
JudwinOdd that they highlighted the Rotodyne but not a mention of the SARO Princess.
Considering the amount of good film material freely available, they could have done a lot better by showing the mature aircraft rather than its first flight.
The programme gave the usual emphasis on noise as the reason for cancelling Rotodyne, and then came out with the odd statment that it was deafening at two miles, which is rubbish.
I could not measure the light-up or helicopter regime noise above normal traffic noise on Westminster bridge.
That does not mean that the Rotodyne was not noisy.
The cancellation of the project was mainly due to the potential high cost involved in producing the larger ‘Type Z’ while resolving the outstanding development issues, which included noise.
It was not the cancellation of the project that was a disaster, but to destroy the prototype and to fail to preserve the data was unforgivable.
The Eurocopter X3 has much in common with Rotodyne, a fact freely admitted by Eurocopter, and hopefully they will achieve the success they deserve. Then you can rest assured that others are looking at the technology.
The battle of compounds is on, 50 years later.
JudwinJohn was a Total Aviation Person who always made you feel that it was a pleasure for him to talk with you.
A Fellow of the Guild of Aviation Artists (There are very few)
A racontuer, and fine presenter.
Thank you for being part of our world John.
JudwinI stand corrected, as I am sure many have before me.
I don’t know how much of the Delhi Wapiti is original, certainly not the undercarriage, that said I would’nt like it to be thought I am pouring ridicule on the Delhi Wapiti.
The IAF did the preservation world a great service when they held on to it.
I hope someone will do a Wallace on it sooner or later
JudwinThis debate like many good threads has ranged about a little.
!) Preserving every significant aircraft, would present a major problem, and to make them accessable to all an even greater one.
You would require a museum the size of Davis-Monthan on at least every continent, and under cover at that.
2) Replica vs Real thing. The Wapiti in Delhi is based on the real thing.
The Wallace in the RAF Museum is a replica.
3) Some aircraft such as the Stirling cry out for representation, more than others. I would place the Whirlwind in that bracket, a few years later with a couple of gas turbines in it, you would have had something like a Meteor.
and it was also a W E W Petter product (Should always mention Davenport).
Departing from thread a moment. Do you realise there is not any biographical work on W E W.
Lysander, Whirlwind, Welkin, Wyvern, Canberra, P1B, Gnat; He deserves his place in history, difficult man or not.
What with that and the background political story, I personally think the Whirlwind replica is a special case.
If you accept that the Whirlwind Project is a worthwhile proposition, may I suggest that you become a member, There is no charge, no pressure to subscribe ( although needless to say, always appreciated) and it is hoped that the website will cover aspects that other media cannot or don’t want to reach. There is also an unwritten policy of ‘No pestering members’
JudwinI dunno. A Ken Wallis/Little Nelly looking thing anyway. Should have thought that if it autorotates the blades, then it´s an autogyro?
Cierva named his invention ‘Autogiro’, spelt with an (i), and this he patented or trademarked or whatever you need to do to protect your intellectual rights
The rest of us had to make do with ‘Autogyro’.
There is a trend to call all of them ‘Gyroplanes’ and personally I can live with that, I don’t think it matters whether it is powered by a propeller (pusher or tractor) or jet thrust or even rocket!
What I hate, and here I’m just being a ‘Grumpy old man’, are the terms ‘Copter’ and worse still ‘Chopper’.
JudwinWhile we are on bright colours on aircraft.
Sea King XZ570 played an important part in the Merlin/EH101 proramme testing items of the mission system, some considerable time in advance of any realistic opportunity to get things going in the definitive aircraft.
Test aircraft need to be visible, test crews are already pre-occupied with what is going on , on-board.
I wanted to paint it Yellow (with ROYAL NAVY on the side?). That would have caused a delicious stir, but ‘They’ would’nt let me!
The end result was bits of Signal Orange on the nose and tail.
570 did a great job.
Good thread, I can’t see it ever ending.
JudwinJust a little update;
I am in the process of going through the terrific response to this thread and I aim to produce a spreadsheet with as many as possible included.
Dare I say? There will be errors, either in the original data or my transcription.
When it is reasonably stocked, I will offer it as ‘Issue 1’, and make it available on request. If there is still interest, pehaps we can debate a way ahead, after all it has got the makings of a good website if there is somebody clever enough.
I want, and have tried to restrict the content to FILMS.
A TV list presents ‘A wonderful chance for somebody. Somebody its gotta be, somebody else, not me!’
Where possible remember the basic requirements:
Year-Title-Aircraft type-Ident (If known)
JudwinWhen their war ended it seemed for many of them a total anti-climax as most never flew again and many remembered those years as their best.[/QUOTE]
I was taught to fly by Joan Hughes who was CFI at West London Aero Club, and to my knowledge later instructed at Booker, retiring in her 70s.
She was an inspiring instructor and a fine aviator.
She also flew for films:
The Blue Max,
Aces High,
Magnificent Men and their Fying Machines.
Freydis liefe and Lettice Curtiss, also continued flying after ATA.
By the way: the 100 or so Flight Engineers of ATA rarely get a mention!
Contrary to folklore, not many of the real heavies were delivered without them, if any.
JudwinJust a little information:
XS570 was cleared off production in July 1964,flying from White Waltham.
She will be 47 years old next July.
First flight was probably done by either John Morton or Ron Gellatly.
There might be a bit more information available if you would like it.
JudwinProbably a little guilty of Thread creep here, but thought this would emphasise that Westland were in at the beginning, when it came to armed helicopters (Warbirds?)
JudwinAt the start of the EH-101/Merlin programme, there was some concern that the avionics fit was of a whole new level of complexity, and that the assessment and integration of the system would represent a significant part of the total programme.
Needless to say the priority in the assessment of a new prototype rests with tasks like; vibration, stress measurements, performace, handling………
It is unlikely that the mission system would get a look in until the basic vehicle aspects had been assessed.
With this in mind, arrangements were made to install the main components of the mission system into a Sea King, including the radar which gave it a rather grotesque appearance.
Known as the ‘Hack’ Sea King XV570 flew in its EH-101 role in 1986 shortly after the EH-101 prototype.
By the time PP-5, the fully equipped aircraft was on programme, the basic fuctions of the mission system, and test procedures were fully understood, thanks to the work carried out with the ‘unlovely’ ‘XV570’.
All this preamble is simply to introduce ‘Before and After’ photographs, to bring us back on thread.
JudwinWhen all flying activity moved to Yeovil in 1964 the Gannet work whent with it. Flying was carried out from the Westland Hangar and site at Yeovilton.
most of the Gannet programme was done from there apart from the last few; three or four aircraft.
JudwinThanks fella’s,
You are coming up with the goods.
I would certainly include Spitfire/Seafire.
As regards Gannet; By the time Westland took Fairey over Gannet AEW production was complete. I would certainly consider it to be a Fairey aircraft rather than Westland. However, Westland did have a contract to see the AEW fleet through some10-12 years of refurbish and upgrade work.
I was in fact personally involved in this, and can claim to be one of the last fixed wing aviators in Westland.
I intend to include the Gannet AEW in the list, almost for old times sake.
The ASW Gannet was never under Westlad control, although I suppose you could say the CODs were.
Thanks everyone for contributions so far.
Judwin‘From Russia with love’ – Hiller 360 (UH-12) – chasing 007.
Went like a bomb!
‘You only live twice’ – Wallis WA-116 (G-ARZB ‘Little Nellie’ Flown by 007 – Standing in for Ken Wallis).
Chased by Bell 47s – Went like four bombs!
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