plawolfi’ll blame it on imported american culture (actualy, just the unhealthy part of it cos yanks are generally quite sporty, or at least the ones i know). fast food and sitcoms – too many and all dont put sports in a high regurd. (friends, the simpsons, will & grace to name a few); and not enough public exercise facilities. ppl are forced to pay through the nose to go to the jim, and many of those that do sign up, espcailly the newbies, are discouraged by all the fit ppl there and never go back while still paying the subscription.
plawolfGarryB:
“”NK should be ok as long as they dont find any oil there.”
DON’T SAY THAT!!!! (it might come true… and then their might be enough balance to the point where the US might see NK and SK as equals…)”
😮 , sorry, my bad. 😉 😀
plawolfGarryB:
“”NK should be ok as long as they dont find any oil there.”
DON’T SAY THAT!!!! (it might come true… and then their might be enough balance to the point where the US might see NK and SK as equals…)”
😮 , sorry, my bad. 😉 😀
plawolfGarryB:
im afraid ur just not getting the jist of it.
“It is very unlikely that North Korean artillery will be tasked with flattening cities. Support for North Korean units… in attack or defence would fit their doctrine much better.”
very possible. but as u urself already pointed out, NK has no chance in a converntional war aginst even SK alone, this means that in a bid to try to aviod a war they cant win, NK will threaten to turn all their missiles and artilary on SK cities should they be attacked. NK may not do this in reality, but SK cant take that chance.
“If it fires it will appear on radar… tracking the source of incoming artillery rounds means that only light portable mobile systems will have much of a chance. (A good example would be the Russian and Czech version of the Grad artillery rocket launcher… supposed experts in the west claim the Czech system is best because it mounts a full reload of rocket that can be reloaded in approximately 3-4 minutes. Of course such a reload time is too long and if it remained where it fired from and reloaded and fired again it would already be dead. The Russian system, while much slower to load would be gone to its next preregistered launch site and in 15 minutes when it reloaded it would be firing again, while the Czech system will be burning. Attacking the target area with cluster munitions and self forging fragment rounds would be standard… it is for the Russians.”
ur just not getting the point! most of NK’s big guns (with supporting munistions stores and troop barics) will be dug into the mountains themselves – fully inclosed in metres ( tens of meteres in some places) of solid rock and concrete all around, except for the whole they need to fire out of. cluster munitions would be useless against them as they wont even shake the tea cups of the NK soilders inside. the same can be said for atrilary. shells will only be moveing dirt, and will only have an effect if one flies right throw the NK gunhole or several rounds hit the area right next to the gunholes and one manages to blast threw, or if u throw so many rounds that u manged to ware away the meteres of rock and reinforced concrete. at 20-40 km ranges, i dont think the chances of the first two happening that often will be too great.
“The most effective attacks were massed bomber raids that caused firestorms. Needless to say many firepositions would be known to the SKs and the Rest would become visible when they started firing. The NKs would be a formidible enemy but they are heavily outnumbered… an artillery piece cannot fight a tank or a plane… and when all the supply trucks are gone and the ammo bunkers hit they aren’t even much good for ramming.”
massed air bombings might be the best way to servive such attack urself, but when it comes to pure distructive power, a shell is little different from a bomb.
although artilary cant fight planes, they can engages tanks, and tanks will need to be within 2 km to be able to engage. even if the NK soldereds dont fight Sk tanks would be hard pressesd to cover 20~40 km of rough terrain in an hour. and i already pointed out the SK simply dont have enough a/c capable of delivering bunkerbusters to be able to silence the Nk guns very quickly.
“No, 100 Americans or British dead means a great deal… put it in perspective… thousands of Somalis were killed but the movie was about 19 dead americans. The withdrawl was about 19 dead Americans. Vietnam isn’t a country… it was a war.
(I hate it as much as you would… but while statistics for American and British and Italian and UN dead in Iraq appear on TV every night how many iraqis are dying? …does it matter? Bush only went in to save them afterall.) Look at what such international games have done to Afghanistan. ;-(“
agreed. but the lives of 100 SK citizens will mean more to SK then any other nation; and thats the same for almost every nation. thats way u dont see the SKs pushing for a military resolution do u?
“And lets face it it will be Koreans who die, not us, so I am sure many Americans and those of other nationalities will pop up and say lets bomb NK… and when it is done and 30,000 Koreans are dead (Optimistically low) they will say what a small price to pay for freedom… and how ungrateful the Iraqis are.”
thats why SK is working intensely with china, japan and russia to make sure the americans dont get to last say in this. but fortunately, not even the americans seem too interested in fighting NK at the moment. too many projected US deaths; not much of a threat from NK to justify those deaths; and no oil to pump back home after the war.
NK should be ok as long as they dont find any oil there. 😎
plawolfGarryB:
im afraid ur just not getting the jist of it.
“It is very unlikely that North Korean artillery will be tasked with flattening cities. Support for North Korean units… in attack or defence would fit their doctrine much better.”
very possible. but as u urself already pointed out, NK has no chance in a converntional war aginst even SK alone, this means that in a bid to try to aviod a war they cant win, NK will threaten to turn all their missiles and artilary on SK cities should they be attacked. NK may not do this in reality, but SK cant take that chance.
“If it fires it will appear on radar… tracking the source of incoming artillery rounds means that only light portable mobile systems will have much of a chance. (A good example would be the Russian and Czech version of the Grad artillery rocket launcher… supposed experts in the west claim the Czech system is best because it mounts a full reload of rocket that can be reloaded in approximately 3-4 minutes. Of course such a reload time is too long and if it remained where it fired from and reloaded and fired again it would already be dead. The Russian system, while much slower to load would be gone to its next preregistered launch site and in 15 minutes when it reloaded it would be firing again, while the Czech system will be burning. Attacking the target area with cluster munitions and self forging fragment rounds would be standard… it is for the Russians.”
ur just not getting the point! most of NK’s big guns (with supporting munistions stores and troop barics) will be dug into the mountains themselves – fully inclosed in metres ( tens of meteres in some places) of solid rock and concrete all around, except for the whole they need to fire out of. cluster munitions would be useless against them as they wont even shake the tea cups of the NK soilders inside. the same can be said for atrilary. shells will only be moveing dirt, and will only have an effect if one flies right throw the NK gunhole or several rounds hit the area right next to the gunholes and one manages to blast threw, or if u throw so many rounds that u manged to ware away the meteres of rock and reinforced concrete. at 20-40 km ranges, i dont think the chances of the first two happening that often will be too great.
“The most effective attacks were massed bomber raids that caused firestorms. Needless to say many firepositions would be known to the SKs and the Rest would become visible when they started firing. The NKs would be a formidible enemy but they are heavily outnumbered… an artillery piece cannot fight a tank or a plane… and when all the supply trucks are gone and the ammo bunkers hit they aren’t even much good for ramming.”
massed air bombings might be the best way to servive such attack urself, but when it comes to pure distructive power, a shell is little different from a bomb.
although artilary cant fight planes, they can engages tanks, and tanks will need to be within 2 km to be able to engage. even if the NK soldereds dont fight Sk tanks would be hard pressesd to cover 20~40 km of rough terrain in an hour. and i already pointed out the SK simply dont have enough a/c capable of delivering bunkerbusters to be able to silence the Nk guns very quickly.
“No, 100 Americans or British dead means a great deal… put it in perspective… thousands of Somalis were killed but the movie was about 19 dead americans. The withdrawl was about 19 dead Americans. Vietnam isn’t a country… it was a war.
(I hate it as much as you would… but while statistics for American and British and Italian and UN dead in Iraq appear on TV every night how many iraqis are dying? …does it matter? Bush only went in to save them afterall.) Look at what such international games have done to Afghanistan. ;-(“
agreed. but the lives of 100 SK citizens will mean more to SK then any other nation; and thats the same for almost every nation. thats way u dont see the SKs pushing for a military resolution do u?
“And lets face it it will be Koreans who die, not us, so I am sure many Americans and those of other nationalities will pop up and say lets bomb NK… and when it is done and 30,000 Koreans are dead (Optimistically low) they will say what a small price to pay for freedom… and how ungrateful the Iraqis are.”
thats why SK is working intensely with china, japan and russia to make sure the americans dont get to last say in this. but fortunately, not even the americans seem too interested in fighting NK at the moment. too many projected US deaths; not much of a threat from NK to justify those deaths; and no oil to pump back home after the war.
NK should be ok as long as they dont find any oil there. 😎
plawolfhamburger:
“haha oh yes, the fact that there are many tax evaders in China, yet they arrest him At the same time he becomes governor of Sinuiju
especially since he’s a Dutch national”
thats part of the problem, because there are so many corrup businessmen and government officals, many will never be caught simply because tehre are too many. but i would think that getting such a high profile job would have brought the man to the attention of the authourities. guess thats a downside to breaking the laws. 😉
nationalanity has little to do with things. in fact, china has a tendency to be more careful with foreign nationals then ordinary chinese nationals.
“a quote from that times article “Beijing is not happy with North Korea for not fully consulting them on the new economic zone.”
yes and by my logic it works”
:rolleyes: it was china that persuaded NK to set up the SEZ in the first place.:rolleyes:
china might not have been happy with the way the NKs were running things, but china would not deliberately scuttled an important NK economic project just because china did want the ‘competition’.
a) NK current pose no threat to china economically, and by the ways things are going, wont be one for a very long time.
b) china has far more to gain for a richer NK the keeping them poor. do u have any idea how much trouble NK cos on china’s boarders? armed robbery, petty crime, illegal imagration, u name it, and all because NK is too poor to feed itself.
c) unlike what some beleive, chinese are no inhernetly ‘evil’ and have no desire to see misfourtune come to all none chinese.
——————————————————————————–
GarryB:
“The area this massed artillery will be spread is very limited. Max range of tube artillery is approximately 40km and unless an invasion force is used then there will be a small gap where front line units will be placed (from either side) with artillery units behind them. This suggests at least some of the artillery will be used to attack the SK forward units and the rest will be available to attack the city. “
good point there, havent thought abt that too much. but in a way, it makes little difference as a shell falling in seul will be the same as one landing in any SK city in all intents and perposes, and there are plenty of large cities and concerntrate population areas right across the 38th for NK artiliary to aim at.
“Equally the SK will have counterbattery artillery units as well, most likely pinpointing enemy positions using radar artillery spotters and MLRS firing cluster munitions to fairly rapidly silence any positions that do open up. Other aircraft could be used, including F-15Ks to fly cluster bomb missions over likely Artillery sites.”
but what u have failed to factor in is that fact that korea, and especially the area around the 38th, are prodominately mountouse regions. and given the time NK had, almost all of its long range artiliry will be very well dug in to very strong semi-natural bombshelters.
dispite the accuracy and destructive power of modern day artilitary, shelling at these ‘shelters’ will be all but useless unless u can scourse several direct hits at the very front of the shelter. at 20~40 km ranges, i dont hold much hope of SK artilitary being able to score several direct hits on tank-sized targets in a short time period, and even less hope of them being able to repeat the process a few thousand times within an hour.
the only truely effective way to deal with these targets would be ‘bunkerbuster’ PGMs, and i dont think SK have the ability to deliver thousands of them in an hour.
“Sounds like a lot, and if distributed properly they could wipe out half the population of asia (ie quarter of a million shells at approximately 40Kgs each… a few 100 grams will kill…. but reality is that rounds will not be that accurate nor that accurately targetted. Shells will hit in the open and hurt no one, other shells will merely spread the damage of other shells that have already killed everyone in that building etc etc”
true, all of the situations u have meantioned and more applied every time the allies bombed a german city in WWII, and back then ppl were well rehersed in seekinging shelter, unlike the modern average person on the streets. but even at the height of WWII, tens, if not hundreds of thousands of civilans were killed in each attack.
but thats not the point, today, a hundred dead means a great deal. and so the very prospect of hundreds of thousands of shells falling on cities is too high a price to pay, how many is unltimately killed matters little. even if by some mirical, only a thousand were killed, the damages would have already been done.
plawolfhamburger:
“haha oh yes, the fact that there are many tax evaders in China, yet they arrest him At the same time he becomes governor of Sinuiju
especially since he’s a Dutch national”
thats part of the problem, because there are so many corrup businessmen and government officals, many will never be caught simply because tehre are too many. but i would think that getting such a high profile job would have brought the man to the attention of the authourities. guess thats a downside to breaking the laws. 😉
nationalanity has little to do with things. in fact, china has a tendency to be more careful with foreign nationals then ordinary chinese nationals.
“a quote from that times article “Beijing is not happy with North Korea for not fully consulting them on the new economic zone.”
yes and by my logic it works”
:rolleyes: it was china that persuaded NK to set up the SEZ in the first place.:rolleyes:
china might not have been happy with the way the NKs were running things, but china would not deliberately scuttled an important NK economic project just because china did want the ‘competition’.
a) NK current pose no threat to china economically, and by the ways things are going, wont be one for a very long time.
b) china has far more to gain for a richer NK the keeping them poor. do u have any idea how much trouble NK cos on china’s boarders? armed robbery, petty crime, illegal imagration, u name it, and all because NK is too poor to feed itself.
c) unlike what some beleive, chinese are no inhernetly ‘evil’ and have no desire to see misfourtune come to all none chinese.
——————————————————————————–
GarryB:
“The area this massed artillery will be spread is very limited. Max range of tube artillery is approximately 40km and unless an invasion force is used then there will be a small gap where front line units will be placed (from either side) with artillery units behind them. This suggests at least some of the artillery will be used to attack the SK forward units and the rest will be available to attack the city. “
good point there, havent thought abt that too much. but in a way, it makes little difference as a shell falling in seul will be the same as one landing in any SK city in all intents and perposes, and there are plenty of large cities and concerntrate population areas right across the 38th for NK artiliary to aim at.
“Equally the SK will have counterbattery artillery units as well, most likely pinpointing enemy positions using radar artillery spotters and MLRS firing cluster munitions to fairly rapidly silence any positions that do open up. Other aircraft could be used, including F-15Ks to fly cluster bomb missions over likely Artillery sites.”
but what u have failed to factor in is that fact that korea, and especially the area around the 38th, are prodominately mountouse regions. and given the time NK had, almost all of its long range artiliry will be very well dug in to very strong semi-natural bombshelters.
dispite the accuracy and destructive power of modern day artilitary, shelling at these ‘shelters’ will be all but useless unless u can scourse several direct hits at the very front of the shelter. at 20~40 km ranges, i dont hold much hope of SK artilitary being able to score several direct hits on tank-sized targets in a short time period, and even less hope of them being able to repeat the process a few thousand times within an hour.
the only truely effective way to deal with these targets would be ‘bunkerbuster’ PGMs, and i dont think SK have the ability to deliver thousands of them in an hour.
“Sounds like a lot, and if distributed properly they could wipe out half the population of asia (ie quarter of a million shells at approximately 40Kgs each… a few 100 grams will kill…. but reality is that rounds will not be that accurate nor that accurately targetted. Shells will hit in the open and hurt no one, other shells will merely spread the damage of other shells that have already killed everyone in that building etc etc”
true, all of the situations u have meantioned and more applied every time the allies bombed a german city in WWII, and back then ppl were well rehersed in seekinging shelter, unlike the modern average person on the streets. but even at the height of WWII, tens, if not hundreds of thousands of civilans were killed in each attack.
but thats not the point, today, a hundred dead means a great deal. and so the very prospect of hundreds of thousands of shells falling on cities is too high a price to pay, how many is unltimately killed matters little. even if by some mirical, only a thousand were killed, the damages would have already been done.
plawolfSauron:
“I should think the PRC are number two on the mass murder list. A close second to the USSR. ….Dead you say. No, just waiting for the next dark age.”
:rolleyes: whatever helps u sleep at night.:rolleyes:
plawolfSauron:
“I should think the PRC are number two on the mass murder list. A close second to the USSR. ….Dead you say. No, just waiting for the next dark age.”
:rolleyes: whatever helps u sleep at night.:rolleyes:
plawolfSauron:
“I hope some of us live long enough to see the day when at least some among Russia, China, South Korea and Japan find the courage to get off their sanctimonious, and normally useless hindquarters and actually do something about the idiot in NK.”
😮 are u dead already? cant say i’ll miss u.;) :p
stop reading newsmax and get a real paper and see how much china has done to help advance the situation as far as it has gone so far.
“If they had any decency they would make the idiot see reason instead off sitting around and watching folks starve. A billion plus people without the courage to take on a few local thugs. Typical UN operators- long on talk, short on courage.”
well, that explains alot dont it? in ur mind the only ‘sign’ of any kind of action being taken is bombs being dropped.:rolleyes:
come back when u have evolved enough maturaity and intelligence to join the 21st centery; and when u have learnt of the true meaning of the word ‘courage’.:rolleyes:
——————————————————————————-
vortex:
“plawolf….it’s undeniable that the Chinese in all it’s history committed ethnic cleansings against their minorities….got that from Chinese historians so i don’t know how you can deny that except there goes that “pride” thing…blinding isn’t it?”
got any EVIDENCE whatsoever to support ur claims? :rolleyes:
——————————————————————————
bugburger:
“Don’t forget the time when N.Korea wanted to try experimenting with Capitalism and had a ethnic Chinese to govern it..but this ****ed off China who didn’t want economic competition so they arrested him.”
let me get this right, by ur logic:
a) china wants to weaken it influnce on NK
b) china is ‘affraid’ of economic competition from NK?
the guy was arrested cos of tax evations. :rolleyes:
plawolfSauron:
“I hope some of us live long enough to see the day when at least some among Russia, China, South Korea and Japan find the courage to get off their sanctimonious, and normally useless hindquarters and actually do something about the idiot in NK.”
😮 are u dead already? cant say i’ll miss u.;) :p
stop reading newsmax and get a real paper and see how much china has done to help advance the situation as far as it has gone so far.
“If they had any decency they would make the idiot see reason instead off sitting around and watching folks starve. A billion plus people without the courage to take on a few local thugs. Typical UN operators- long on talk, short on courage.”
well, that explains alot dont it? in ur mind the only ‘sign’ of any kind of action being taken is bombs being dropped.:rolleyes:
come back when u have evolved enough maturaity and intelligence to join the 21st centery; and when u have learnt of the true meaning of the word ‘courage’.:rolleyes:
——————————————————————————-
vortex:
“plawolf….it’s undeniable that the Chinese in all it’s history committed ethnic cleansings against their minorities….got that from Chinese historians so i don’t know how you can deny that except there goes that “pride” thing…blinding isn’t it?”
got any EVIDENCE whatsoever to support ur claims? :rolleyes:
——————————————————————————
bugburger:
“Don’t forget the time when N.Korea wanted to try experimenting with Capitalism and had a ethnic Chinese to govern it..but this ****ed off China who didn’t want economic competition so they arrested him.”
let me get this right, by ur logic:
a) china wants to weaken it influnce on NK
b) china is ‘affraid’ of economic competition from NK?
the guy was arrested cos of tax evations. :rolleyes:
plawolfVortex:
“no Hamburger…Chinese are very ethnically “racists” (use a better word than “race”-ist)”
oh is that why there is only the ‘han’ in china?:rolleyes:
“ah…newcastle, UK…the coorinates are in, but we won’t “defend” against UK for now, i’ll just pick any Chinese city….now about that over due bill please pay with cash only (EUROs or Dollars)….just “defending” myself…”
well done, i should reconmend kim to take a few pages out of ur book.:rolleyes: ever thought of becoming an international relations consultant for NK? im sure ur feel right at home.:p
——————————————————————————
GarryB:
“Leningrad was bombed for almost 3 years wth artillery and aircraft… with F-15Ks in their inventory I doubt the SK will let the NK artillery fire for more than an hour before they are taken out… ie 30-60 shells from each weapon at most… even hub to hub that wouldn’t destroy a city.”
a) i strongly doubt that even F15Ks will be able to knock out a few thousand, if not tens of thousands of well dug in guns in an hour.
b) even if they can, the 45*5000=225000 shells right into soel. not a pretty sight.
——————————————————————————
Sauron:
“Looks as if South Korea, China, Japan and Russia are quite content to sit back and let the US carry the ball but then again what can you expect from such a group.”
NK is finally comming back to the tables cos of who? :rolleyes:
plawolfVortex:
“no Hamburger…Chinese are very ethnically “racists” (use a better word than “race”-ist)”
oh is that why there is only the ‘han’ in china?:rolleyes:
“ah…newcastle, UK…the coorinates are in, but we won’t “defend” against UK for now, i’ll just pick any Chinese city….now about that over due bill please pay with cash only (EUROs or Dollars)….just “defending” myself…”
well done, i should reconmend kim to take a few pages out of ur book.:rolleyes: ever thought of becoming an international relations consultant for NK? im sure ur feel right at home.:p
——————————————————————————
GarryB:
“Leningrad was bombed for almost 3 years wth artillery and aircraft… with F-15Ks in their inventory I doubt the SK will let the NK artillery fire for more than an hour before they are taken out… ie 30-60 shells from each weapon at most… even hub to hub that wouldn’t destroy a city.”
a) i strongly doubt that even F15Ks will be able to knock out a few thousand, if not tens of thousands of well dug in guns in an hour.
b) even if they can, the 45*5000=225000 shells right into soel. not a pretty sight.
——————————————————————————
Sauron:
“Looks as if South Korea, China, Japan and Russia are quite content to sit back and let the US carry the ball but then again what can you expect from such a group.”
NK is finally comming back to the tables cos of who? :rolleyes:
plawolfmike:
😉 nice to know all the time i spent staring into space (not outer space, just ‘space’ :p) was not all for nothing.:D 😉
plawolfmike:
😉 nice to know all the time i spent staring into space (not outer space, just ‘space’ :p) was not all for nothing.:D 😉
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