Russian and Western sources have often failed in documenting Chinese events with outright and often embarrasing mistakes, so I do not regard them as valid with regards to Chinese related news.

There is nothing about Boris Aleshin saying about the J-11B, just a hope they can participate in it.

It’s clear they got nothing to do with it. If the Russians were involved in any Chinese project they are the first to market such news around the world.

The J-11Bs are most likely done with Sukhoi’s knowledge or knowing its existance, but not tacitly with its consent. Its just that I don’t think Sukhoi can do something about it, and Sukhoi may have gotten some sort of offset in return.

Sorry but it does not appear there is any stipulation that limits the number of domestically built Su-27s in China. The facts are saying so. Introducing as many as 3 possible new models (J-11B, J-11BS, and J-11C/H) do not indicate they are being limited to another 80 or so planes.

Just on the FC-1 alone it would take 400 planes alone to break even that program. Like the J-10, the potential numbers for the J-11B and its variants are in the hundreds.

And what makes you think they don’t have Sukhoi’s and Russia’s “quiet” consent? Huh?

You think the Russians don’t know about it since 2001? The PLAAF journals first described the plane in December of 2003. I already told you that even in 2004, Phazotron already knew there are two Chinese institutes designing radars for that thing. Also in all during the time period, the Y-8 test bed flying the Flanker style nose has been busy testing the radar, with public photos of such.

Do you understand how legal processes work? How marriages work?

During the time of the marriage, you are allowed to say your objections. Failing to say so during the moment, you will hold your peace forever.

And how will the Russians stop the Chinese eh? As much luck as they stopped the 2A46M style 125mm carousel autoloading tank guns? As much luck as they stopped the Kh-31, Orekh, Fregat, Bandstand, and Shtil copies? Guess who is marketing a Kashtan copy now, eh? As much luck as they stopped China making their own A-50s? Lol, Russia was willing to sell China more IL-76s even after they knew the Chinese were making their A-50 versions out of them.

BS. The Su-30MKK is not part of the 200 plane limit, which apparently does not exist. Russian and Western media has not mentioned that “limit” for years now, indicating the old reports are not as accurate as it seems. Newer news override old ones, and the plain solid facts override all.

Get a grip. The Chinese have literally built numbers of a reverse engineered Su-27, and with big plans for it to build not just lots more, but in different versions. How Sukhoi is involved is a mystery. If they are, they are not going to tell reporters about it under Chinese request. None of the improvements in the J-11B are in alignment with other improve Flanker projects, which does not indicate Sukhoi participation.

Crobato

Please use the logic whay you want to argue is this the Chinese are screwing Sukhoi because they can build their own J-11 airframes and they can fitt them with their own local engine and radar technology, man please its really annoying to see such lies of you, China does respect the contract, if not Russia would not deal any more with them in military deals, China needs Russia because even you think they are advancing so fast they have done it in great part thanks to Russian science, Russia is the only Western country willing to help China in military technology, for China it would not be convinient to break a deal as you claim because first you are simply especulating why China can build their own J-11s and Russia is uncapable of doing any thing? under a myth that is an utter lie, China has respected and does respect the contract, if China is going to buy or build the Su-33 is simply because Russia is going to make money out of it, and because Russia has not lost any money from the Chinese deals and that only can happen when China has respected the deal it has signed.

Sukhoi is willing to sell newer aircraft becasue China has respected the contract and Russia and Sukhoi have not lost money.

That is the way politics works we are not in 1960 or 1967 when the USSR and China even fought a border war.

In fact for China is more convinient to build J-10s than get in trouble with the J-11 license, these aircraft are Chinese designs, they can be built with their own technology and according to some Russian sources China must likely will have 500 J-10s by the year 2010, besides the J-10 is cheaper and can be afforded in larger numbers
The J-11B is like the F-14B it is simply an aircraft re-engined and re-engineered with new engines and radar, both aircraft have been re-designated with a new denomination

if you ask huitong now, he will tell you otherwise. As shown in his actively updated website. I have recent articles of interviews between kanwa and his Russian sources which show that they are compeletely shut out of J-11B project.

Get it through your head, if China has to pay $30 million for each J-11 to the Russians and then the additional cost of probably $25 million for flyaway cost (+ the cost of developing the plane), that would be over $50 million. As it stands, J-11B offer a lower cost/performance ratio compared to J-10 even assuming everything is built in China. If PLA has to pay more than $40 million for a J-11B, IT WILL NEVER BUILD ANOTHER FLANKER.

Yes and it did happen, China after the kit 110 was recieved refused to build more Su-27s, also China had to buy Su-30MKKs, Russia did not allow China to build better versions than the Su-27SK that is the reasons they had to buy all those 170 Flankers directly from Russia.

And contrary to you i do not need KANWA to know what the Russians say, i can read russians articles and news;)

Russian sources only document their own stuff. They don’t document what the Chinese made of their own.

China built more J-11s than the 105 kits they had. The 105 kits only make up to plane factory serial no. 0423.

It does not account for batch 05XX. Since J-11B is already starting at 052X, we don’t know where 050X and 051X went, but these are very likely to be experimental and evaluation models that lead up to the J-11B, some of whom may have been seeded with regular units for evaluation against original Su-27s and kit J-11s.

Given that WS-10A does appear wider than the AL-31F, the standard kit airframe would not fit them, and nor would the contract and warranty agreement support such a modification, starting it would void a very expensive warranty.

The J-11 that first flew the WS-10A would not have been a kit plane. It would have been built entirely outside of the kits. It is impossible to jump from a kit based Su-27SK to the J-11B without an interim model. The deep changes on the J-11B suggest that the Chinese cannot copy directly some of the Russian supplied airframe components whose metallurgical formulas may have remained proprietary. Russians also tend to use a lot more titanium because this is their natural resource advantage. The Chinese would have to substitute their own alloys and composite into the aircraft, which means deep structural changes and a design overhaul with every part being restressed and recalculated. The whole substitute airframe would have to go through a series of extensive tests and evaluation, and some of the early specimens may not perform as well as the original and requires adjustments and corrections.

Crobato

I do not agree with you, to me China has been very respectful of the J-11 license, i think since the Russians know where are the J-11 production facilities, assisted the Chinese in the assembly and are friends, the Chinese have not build any J-11 without the Russian explicit authorization.

China has kept the license all the J-11Bs are upgrades no new build ups, China wants to start a new line up of J-11Bs domestically and Russia is aware of it very likely the Russians and Chinese have talked about it and the Su-33 is part of it.

The idea of China screwing Sukhoi building her own J-11s is only in the fantazy of those who see a China setting the Rules to Sukhoi.

In reality the Chinese are descent people not screwing Sukhoi and keeping the contract, they just had fed up of buying so many Sukhois 280 is a really big number. China has done as Japan did, cooproduction so they have not broken any contract as you affirm

Hui Tong has changed his entries.

http://cnair.top81.cn/J-10_J-11_FC-1.htm

“The use of demostically made parts will begin after the first 60 are assembled using Russian kits and eventually 60-70% of the parts will be manufactured in China (excluding AL-31F engine, which was denied by Russia for the license). The resulting aircraft is dubbed J-11A which also features at least two color MFDs and an improved N001VE radar (being able to engage two targets simultaneously using R-77). This variant can also fire the newly acquired R-27RE1 SARH AAM with an extended range of 66km. A further upgraded variant (J-11B) is under development (see below). Initial batches of J-11s are believed to have entered the service with PLAAF 1st Division in Liaoning Province. The first phase of J-11/J-11A production concluded by the end of 2006 after a total of 105 J-11/J-11A were produced in 4 batches. The production is expected to be switched to J-11B (see below) in the subsequent phase. “

Pic of modified J-11 cockpit

http://cnair.top81.cn/fighter/J-11A.jpg

Not your everyday SK cockpit.

And then he has a new entry for the J-11B

“A newly manufactured J-11B prototype was seen landing carrying two PL-12 ARH AAMs underneath the central fuselage. This demonstrates Chinese’s effort to integrate their own weapon systems into a Russian aircraft design. Their effort includes a Chinese multifunction PD radar (Type 1474/KLJ4?) and databus compatible with PL-8, PL-12 AAM & YJ-91 ARM, a Chinese IRST/LR, as well as a redesigned glass cockpit featuring 4 MFDs and a new wide-angle holographic HUD. The aircart also has a new UV band missile approach warning system (MAWS). Two sensors are installed on both sides of the tail sting to provdie the rear coverage. In addition, AL-31F is expected to be replaced by the indigenous WS-10A. One WS-10A (Taihang 13,200kg class) turbofan was successfully tested on a CFTE J-11 engine testbed in June 2002. The first J-11B prototype powered by WS-10A flew in 2003. At least three prototypes are being tested at CFTE (#523, 524, 525). The production is expected to start in 2007. A tandem-seat strike version dubbed J-11BS in the same class as Su-30MKK was rumored but has not been confirmed. The carrier based version (also based on Su-33 technology) for PLAN is also believed to be under development.”

That is serious changes.

Radar

http://cnair.top81.cn/fighter/J-11B_radar.jpg

Cockpit

http://cnair.top81.cn/fighter/J-11B_cockpit1.jpg

UV MAWS

http://cnair.top81.cn/fighter/J-11B_MAW.jpg

The Jane’s article has even more serious changes that includes widespread composite use to reduce weight by a net of 700kg, airframe strengthening to 10000 flight hours and RCS reductions in the inlet.

And everyone forgot to include that the FCS is now a digital FBW that is shown in the same poster as the radar and the IRST.

yes it say is expected to be switched to J-11B (see below) in the subsequent phase. yes but see this fact expecting is not a fact and Aleshin reported the same in Zhuhai 2006 they want to switch it to J-11B so the russians are in talks with the Chinese to re open that.

Yoru are thinking they have already opened it and screwed Sukhoi as they did to Mig with the MiG-21, but let me say something you forget in 1961 the Russian experts were expelled in 2007 the Russian experts are in China and have knowledge of the Su-27 production as the Americans did with the F-15 in Japan or the Russians with the MiG-27 in India

Then how do you explain the Su-27s in the CFTC testing WS-10As and indigneous radar components for example? Mind you, there are differences in the AL-31F engine and the WS-10A, and the latter won’t fit without some airframe modifications.

So tell me where in Heaven’s name where Shenyang got the permission to modify the airframe for a different engine huh?

http://cnair.top81.cn/gallery/J-11_60.jpg

Isn’t it allegedly part of the contract that you cannot make any modifications without Sukhoi’s permission?

And I helped some of the input on this.

PLAAF 33rd Division by the way has more than four J-11s, beyond no. 77 to 80 received originally. The pictures of additional J-11s can be seen here.

http://cnair.top81.cn/gallery/J-11_58.jpg

http://cnair.top81.cn/gallery/J-11_60.jpg

181 Su-27s and J-11s (105 kits plus 76 bought directly) means an average of 25 to 26 planes per regiment in 7 regiments.

However, some of the units have bort numbers higher than 26. The 33rd Division had planes originally numbered from 49 to 80 which is 32. The 1st and the 7th both have UBKs marked up to 32. The 19th Division regiment is spotted with a number up to 30.

It is impossible to believe that all the old Su-27s would still be surviving up to now. A number have them have attrited, retired, crashed or cannibalized, so they could not be a full 76 anymore, their bort number replacements would have been J-11s.

One mystery for many watchers is the appearance of J-11s of a different color in the same unit, even different from J-11s of that same unit.

Light J-11

http://cnair.top81.cn/gallery/J-11_17.jpg

Dark J-11

http://cnair.top81.cn/gallery/J-11_29.jpg

Both from the 19th Division.

Crobato

The Russians know about the J-11B project and Boris Aleshin of course talked with the Chinese side and he said that he was optimistic about the deal to participate in the J-11B project becasue the Chinese side wants to build J-11s with local technology and even modified it to turn it into a very advanced design such as the MiG-29OVT or Su-35BM.

They know they have experimented with WS-10s and fitted them to J-11s but they were sure the Chinese still do not have the technology to build them in large numbers.

The Su-33 enters also in that because of course for Russia these are the last chances for the Su-27 baseline to be sold becasue in reality the PAKFA soon will be needed in the International markes since the presence of the F-22 in Kadena has shown to everybody the new champion in the block in Asia is the F-22.

It was also reported that Chinese are upgrading the aircraft with components designed locally or imported from western sources (dubbed J-11A or J-11B?), such as replacing some old analog instruments with new digital instruments and replacing AL-31F with the indigenous WS-10A. Initial batches of J-11s are believed to have entered the service with PLAAF 1st Division in Liaoning Province. A third batch of 28 Su-27UBKs ($35m each) were ordered in 1999 to speed up the training of qualified pilots as more J-11s are being rolled out of the assembly line.

source

http://www.stormpages.com/jetfight/J-10_J-11_FC-1.htm

This chinese site is more logical than all the speculation you want to make believe as a hard fact, this guy has more common sense that all that speculation you wnat us to believe

Mig23/Flogger/Strevitel

You seem pretty sure about the contents of the contract so this would suggest that you have a copy on hand. Please post the Sukhoi Chinese sales contract for us to see. Otherwise, please post any news article where a Sukhoi official has complained about this supposed Chinese violation of the sales contract.

Hello goldendragon/ tangolima

Only in your especulation the Chinese will try to screw Sukhoi, a batch of 40 aircraft means too much Money to Sukhoi in fact they Russians are aware of the Chinese attempts of building the J-11B and obviously like Boris Aleshin says from Zhuhai they will cooperate because that is what civilized nations do, only people who think aircraft valued in USD $35 millions dolars or batches worthed a billion dollars won`t affect Sukhoi like you and Crobato will think China will build J-11s without paying any class of royalty

And where is the royalties going? Where is it? Europeans are smarter than you think. Those royalties don’t mean crap or anything like that. They go for bigger game. The Europeans allow the Chinese to build as many of an obsolete helicopter as much as the Chinese want because this helicopter is a vital beachhead to the Chinese market. The royalties are small potatoes against a much bigger picture of potential investment opportunities in China. Why do you want to bother with a few cents when you can make hundreds of dollars instead by being on the good side of somebody?

Forget about the royalties when those helos help give you a stronger image for the Europeans in front of the Chinese, which helps so much more with other more lucrative contracts—Airliners, nuclear power stations, trains, etc,. Think about the bigger picture. The Dauphin license also has limited the penetration of Russian helicopters in China and allowed the penetration of other European helicopters into the Chinese market instead.

Its the same thing here. Why complain about getting your fair share of a few cents, when somewhere in the table, you can get a much bigger prize.

With J-11B, at least Sukhoi still keeps a presence and an image within the PLAAF, or otherwise, would have been taken over by J-10s and its larger successors.

That is not the way it works, Europe does not need that in fact you do not know how the financial systems works, for Europe is easier have a strong presence in the IMF and let the smaller competitors choke under economic pressue by the policies of the IMF, in few words they won`t be able to pay their loans and accumalte debt that at the end will bankrupt them as has happened to many aircraft makers in the past such as Mc Donnell Douglas that was absorbed by Boeing

Helos are valued in million dollars and a production run of few hundred will mean billions of dollars.

If China buil let us say 100 J-11Bs without paying any royalty to Sukhoi will mean several hundred million dollars and perhaps one or two billion dollars, same will be for Eurocopter, they will loose in that way too much money.
You are not talking about big Macs but of millions of dollars valued helos or jet fighters and Sukhoi needs that money to finance more programs in order to survive they can not barter if they want to build a fifth generation fighter, that is where your fantasy can not see