Mig, as Crobato and others have plainly stated, you cannot compare the J11B with the MKI because all the critical components like radar, avionics, fbw, rwr, engine are domestic on the J11B. The only design that is Russian is the airframe, but even there, according to Jane’s, China has made many modifications to make it more durable, and lighter.

It’s clear to any objective observer that China has successfully indigenized the J11B 100% or very close to it. And because China has done this right in front of the closely observing eyes of Russians, this must be completely legal. If it was illegal and violating some clause, do you not think Russia and Sukhoi would object loudly? Surely they would. Because they haven’t, Indigenizing the SU27 100% must be completely legal.

The question isn’t whether China has indigenized the SU27. It has, no question.

The question is, is China paying Sukhoi some royalty for each J11B produced with 100% China content, or was the original contract for SU27 a form of implicit payment to reverse engineer the SU27?

We really shouldn’t be arguing whether or not the SU27 has been indigenized by China because it clearly has been. China is the best at reverse engineering. They’ve done it in the past so why is it hard to believe they’ve done it with the SU27.

Man Russian reports can give you the Russian side of the issue, i am aware the J-11B exists, no one denies it, however you still fail to see many things as Crobato and others who love especulate.

Russia works with China on the regular basis, if you read this report http://www.avias.com/news/2006/11/13/109296.html limning and Salyut are working hand on hand building gas turbunies, it means China is absorbing technology transfers.

This article clearly states that Limning is trying to absorb knowledge to build jet engines in fact Linming gives service to the AL-31s

For Russia there is a limit to what they can transfer, because contrary to India, Russia has territorial disputes with China, this limited what they could transfer to China and this limited the fact that China recieved less advanced Su-27SK while india recieved Su-30MKI, also Russia has not forget what China did with the MiG-21, for example the RD-33 is going to be build in India, they granted the license to India while China has to buy them.

This simply shows that is unlikely Russia will tolerate unlicense J-11s, Russian reports say china has repected the license and very important the J-11B is not chinese, it might be a modified Su-27 but still all the documentation, machinery and technology besides the aerodynamic tunnel hours and design expenses give to Russia all the rights to claim property of the design.

China never built more than 105 so why we will think China has opened a line of Su-27s illegally?

You are giving an example that does not relate to reality, if Japan builds unlicensed F-2, and more than what they have agreed with Boeing, Boeing and the US government will complaign, that is a reality however here we have people claiming China can built indigenized aircraft that is simply ilogic😉

It is more logic to think the J-11B is a modified kit unless there is proof Russia agrees with reopening the construction lines of J-11Bs without Sukhoi sending kits

I cannot beleive this discussion has been going on for so long!

It really boggles the mind that not only do a few hardcore China bashers refuse to beleive anything other then their own biased opinions, but also that others are still trying to convice them otherwise. Seriously, you’d have more chance of convincing Bush that he was wrong to invade Iraq. :rolleyes:

I can not believe you also can not believe the Russians reports, in fact you know why the thread has gone for a long time? well because of the lack of proves China has built unlicense Sukhois. that is the real thing that boggles you.

1st, where did your quoted article say J11B is using modified Su27SK kits within that 105 units delivered? Is that your source of puting it in Russian and cheating?!

2nd, As I have said J11B is using WS-10a as feedstock if the Ws-10A at a low production rate initially then of course the receiving side J11B won’t be in high production volume,

3rd, one of your source saying SAC manufacturing only 6-7 Su27SK/J11 a year for 1st 3 years then 15 units per year since 2002, please do a simple mathematic and add the figure together, then tell us all the total added plus other Flankers delivered directly from Russia match your quoted around 280 flanker that in PLAAF/PLAN or not?! Crap as usual. The worse is your side just throw in craps and no need to do a clean till all thread was overflowed with your junk

Pinko

you have to do the math and read the reports, in 2005 China only built less than 17 aircraft, i can prove it to you with reports i previously before, what you do not understand is this one thing is recieve the kits and other is assemble them and that is why the russian news reported that that in 2005 China only built less than 17 J-11s/Su-27SKs.

for you in your fantasy building and setting up an aircraft manufacturing plant is an easy task, but not buddy, Embraer just set up an aircraft manufacturing plant in Mexico, they are building Embraer airframes, the first year they only build few aircraft parts, the second year were building an entire airframe every two months and since 2005 they have been doing it, and only in 2011 they will start building the whole plane in Mexico, it means it will take around 6 years to start building jets.

The Su-27 is not different, China might build low value products with relatively regular quality fast and in large numbers but aircraft are different, they take long time and they have to be very safe because one they are very expensive and two they can create catastrophies, so please use the logic there is nothing wrong with the Russian reports is only you who does not want to see aircraft manufacturing takes long time specially a labour intensive aircraft like a Su-27

If the video doesn’t tell you, then there are various J11B photos for you to verify and there’s the Jane’s report on the J11B’s structure change of airframe, all clearly give you the indication there’re not original Su27SK kits being delivered. Also, SAC stopped importing Su27SK kits as early as 2004, now, 3 years pasted, a low manufacturing rate of around 20 J11s/year will see the outstanding kits from Russia should have been finished for assembly. Then, what’s your source saying the J11B seen in the video is from the kit? You mean the kit can accommodate a Ws-10a which is in different diameter and intake requirement of AL31F, you mean the Russian kit also address the requirement of new engine like WS-10A? See who is childish here.

BTW, I don’t see F-2/F16 link got anything to do with SAC’s J11B case.

So your secret Sukhoi refers to what? Please elaborate? China of course not violating any agreement only you keep suggesting this. Wow, when did you shift role become China’s public speaker, show us when China “publicly refused to build more than 100 kits”. So what secret agreement? Nobody here says there’s secret agreement except you. And you think Sukhoi & SAC’s agreement is open, show us the part that saying “China only can build no more than 100 kits”? Because currently, J11B just certificated and put into production and WS-10A’s volume is low even in 2006, so the accumulated J11B number is of course not more than the limit you set, however, that doesn’t mean SAC will only manufacture within that limit because SAC cann’t adjustify its investment in J11B/J11BS and navalized J11H, you know a factory needs to manufacture certain volume in order to break even its R & D investment. Taking for example, the FC-1 project needs at elast 400 units to break even at set price that is around 15 million USD to 20 million USD

J11B is not Su27sk, it’s not a license built Su27SK, it at most is an indigenized fighter jets with licensed airframe from Sukhoi. If you only limits a fighter to its look alike airframe or a shell, then that explains something.

Через три года завод планирует выйти на темпы производства в шесть-семь Су-27 в год, а начиная с 2002 года довести их ежегодный выпуск до 15 единиц. За качеством сборки истребителей Су-27СК на заводе в Шеньяне наблюдают более 100 российских специалистов.

This clearly states that for first three years Shengyang built 6 or 7 J-11s/Su-27SKs a year and that changed in 2002 with a rate or production of 15 aircraft a year, it also says that 100 Russian technicians supervised the quality control in the Shengyang aircraft manufacturing facility, the Russians are aware where the J-11s are built and are in the aircraft manufacturing plant supervising things for Sukhoi

http://www.aviaport.ru/directory/aviation/316.html

See that the Russians claim a very low production rate this can explain you very well that The J-11B are modified kits because they have have enough time to modified the latest kits with Chinese built parts, it does not look like China has built non license airframes

here is why you can understand Russia and China consider them selves long term partners

Россия и Китай являются давними партнерами в сфере военно-технического сотрудничества. Однако, по словам главы Роспрома Б.Алешина, «в настоящее время созрели предпосылки для масштабного сотрудничества между Китаем и Россией именно в области гражданской авиации, кроме того, сейчас очень подходящее время для того, чтобы совместно выступить в качестве третьего мирового центра авиастроения, наряду с Европой и США». Исходя из этого, российская сторона предложила Китаю участие в совместном проекте по созданию больших авиалайнеров – гражданского и транспортного. «Это будет широкофюзеляжный самолет вместимостью от 275 до 350 мест, на основе которого затем будет создана и его транспортная версия», – подчеркнул Б.Алешин.

Russia and China are old partners in the sphere of military technical collaboration. However, according to Boris Aleshin, “at this moment in time there is a basis for wide collaboration between China and Russia precisely in the region of civil aviation, furthermore, now is very good time in order to create a third world center of aircraft construction composed by China and Russia, together with Europe and USA”. On the basis of this, the Russian side proposed to China her participation in joint projects for the creation of large airliners – civil and transport. “this will be the wide-body aircraft capacity from 275 to 350 places, on basis of which then will be created its transport version”, emphasized B.Aleshin.

http://www.rusins.ru/ru/index.php?newid=272

No need to blur the line, nobody even said any secret agreement except you, what I said is we are not accessible to the corporation internal memo and document which is usually classified but able to reveal actual events recorded between SAC & Sukhoi. Is that saying reasonable? If you think such internal documents are open then better still, show us here, everybody is eager to see, how many time we urge to do so already? Your high db charge of SAC violating license and refusing contract is based on what? Because all visible facts can give you a clue that SAC doesn’t have any illegal copyright issue with Sukhoi although it is building a not license built J11B? If not, sukhoi would have make the whole world know already

J11B a secret Sukhoi? Reality denier is no good, a non consistent style of debate is no good either, in previous posts, you’re saying Sukhoi is aware of J11B now you are back peddle saying J-11B is a secret Sukhoi? You are denying that J11B together with WS-10A was broadcasted in a gold time slot to the billion of Chinese in China Center TV a secret news? See the footage of that News report:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x37FZef0nqs

You mean the J11B featured in that famous CFTE video clip which caught attention of JANE’S, AWST a secret Sukhoi.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qKi31GSGMc4

So Israelis also never deliver the contracted Palcon & Russians never delivered their contracted IL76/78 to China, so what? Contract is revisable and can be terminated. Why Chinese must sign a contract to buy further a junk like Su27SK, you are a bully or what?! No signing means Chinese are crook all come from your honored mouth. “even now selling Su-27s now under the individual basis” yes, that’s my own thinking and I think I clearly indicated that, How come you can speculate whole your argument on no ground( Hey, show us what Document saying J11B violated any contract signed with Russian), but I can’t have a reasonable thought based on visible behavior of the firms concerned?

Eyerolling doesn’t make you be in the right.

That shows your source reliability body, if u’r so ignorance to believe a source saying any 5th stealth fighter can be based on the no-way-to-be stealthy J11 airframe which is the legacy of Flanker, then I think the rest of us would even not to give u a D*mn explanation. Hey, the Russian expert of course is not in the same class of you, Boris Aleshin think any decent 5th generation fighter can be based on Flanker airframe. That’s yet another classic quote from mig23

What a childish way of trying prove an argument the videos do not prove those J-11B shown there are new airframes that do not belong to the 110 kits delivered by Russia, the aircraft can be kits delivered by Russia modified with new chinese designed parts, simply like that, the F-2 for example is not a F-16 in the complete sense of the word, it has many modified structures, but still is based upon the F-16 and still was built in the numbers the US and Japan agreed, also in 2006 the Russians reported they were still suplying parts for the Chinese Su-27s, this means China very likely was still asembling few Su-27SK kits specially if the Chinese content of parts was higher than the early delivered.

For the Russians the J-11B is not a secret, do not try to change my words and twist them in order to scape your own words, i have only argue that is unlikely China has violated the agreement and since publicly it has refused to build more than 110 kits it is unlikely there is a secret agreement and has build J-11s own her own without Sukhoi`s consent.

many nations modify their aircraft with domestic products Japan and Israel are two good examples with their F-15s and F-16s, the J-11B is not the examption but it does not mean that China has opened a new line of unlicensed Su-27SKs as you are claiming.

In the J-11/Su-27SK deal the only legal looser will be Lyulka since the WS-10 can be a perfect replacement for the AL-31s and does not break any license since the WS-10 can become main spare engine for Chinese Su-27s

Actually I’m thinking Sukhoi may license the Flanker airframe to SAC in the per unit basis, which means sukhoi will get some payback from SAC in some way from per unit of J11B that SAC has manufactured. In such a way, Sukhoi will get more if SAC manufactures more, all happy except one.

More of the magical especulation, secret agreements, China building secret sukhois, paying ghost royalties, Sukhoi even now selling Su-27s now under the individual basis:rolleyes: Sukhoi never signed a contract for the renmant 90 Su-27SKs, for Russia a batch of fighters is logic not selling aircraft on the one on one basis, or course you claim the secret contract that only the iluminated like you and Crobato see and later this becomes from especulation a hard fact now i see why you call the chinese aviation news and SPECULATION

The Funny of Crobato and You is you change your story in order to seem right, of course always a Hypothesis can be modified, what is hard to modify are facts and at least no more than 280 Su-27s have been reported built or bought by China;) at least by russian sources but of course the magical serials and the ghost royalties or even the plain rip off of non paid J-11Bs feed your imagination in order to write more and more speculation:D

У Китая около 100 истребителей Су-27 (J-11), поставки из России прекращены, развернуто производство по лицензии. Всего предполагается произвести 200 таких самолетов

here it is said China has barely 100 J-11s of the 200 that supposed to built http://old.russ.ru/columns/march/20040325-hrmchy.html

Yes, but you have to identify who are obviously desperate in need such a ” inner workings/agreements “paper to show here, we are comfortable with observable facts to prove one or two and no need show people top secret corporation memos but the other side need such a silver bullet against all the facts and probably you can judge that’s the only way to save his day.
😉

I think speculations are subjetivities, of course you pretend to be right and blaming others of subjetivity and desperation, Pinko you have no proves beyond especulations that you support only becasue that is what you want to see, at least i have russians reports that claim no more than 280 Su-27s in chinese service, you only create you magical serials to support speculations, there is no evidence as you claim, 280 is a realistic number.

Nonsense. These articles only mainly came after March 17. There has been articles doubting the second export of RD-93s to Pakistan due to Indian pressure.

Why? Do Russian news articles have a good track record to back them up? A lot of them are not better than Venik’s work.

BS. Speculation? There are bunch of actual planes out there, in photo, video and even satellite pictures (Dingxin AB, using GE).

That’s not speculation. That’s real.

They’re are not angels either, and no one with some experience of dealing in the mainland are going to contradict me either. These are people who will go to lengths to get ahead. I have already shown proof of various “copies” of weapons and radar systems that externally very similar to Russian and Western equivalents, though operatively the innards are different. And while some systems may be licensed (Aspide, Python, Croatale), there is no limit to the numbers given, as also with the Dauphine, and Super Frelon helicopters.

The proof is already out there and it is flying, and not in singular terms. It now appears to be in a small production scale basis, a stage indicating training and initial operational valuation.

Not the very least, just recently, very recently AVIC has posted an article about job well done for completing development of a new plane.

You can guess what that aircraft is.

http://img501.imageshack.us/img501/8937/j11bsjune10jv6.jpg

Crobato

Many aircraft are modified and even redesignated, the famous F-14A+ became the F-14B yes they were no new aircraft but modified F-14As with new engines and avionics, the MiG-23MLD was the same, they were old MiG-23ML and MiG-23MLAs that were modified and beared a new designation.

Hiutong is much more logic than you, they can have the J-11B, even a model but it can simply be a license built Su-27SK with chinese engines and radar, modify it and turn it a new aircraft justifies the new designation.

see this russian news

Абсолютного превосходства Китай достиг в классе тяжелых истребителей и истребителей-бомбардировщиков: у него теперь есть почти три сотни J-11 и J-12 (Су-27 и Су-30).

this means China has close to 300 Su-27s and Su-30s including the locally built J-11s see the report is from December 22 2006

http://nvo.ng.ru/concepts/2006-12-22/1_kitai.html