MiG-23MLDMan, if you like to quote Russian source, of course you have to quote some more decent & repute source like Kommersant than your crapped no name:
So the how can you explain this
СИНГАН, 16 марта. (Корр.АРМС-ТАСС). Китай по-прежнему ориентируется на Россию в программе лицензионного производства истребителя завоевания превосходства в воздухе J-11 (китайский вариант Су-27СК). Однако в 2006 г. китайской авиапромышленностью будет построено не более 17 машин этого типа, сообщил еженедельник “Джейнс дифенс уикли”.
SINGAN, on 16 March. (Korr.ARMS- TASS). China as before is oriented in Russia in the program of the license production of the air-superiority fighter J -11 (Chinese version Su-27SK). However, in 2006 Chinese aircraft industry will built not more than 17 machines of this type, reported the JANE`s defence weekly
According to the data of the experts of this publication, during October 2005 with the Ural optical-mechanical plant (UOMZ) was signed the agreement to the delivery to the new party of optical-electronic locating stations IRST systems
Contradictory is not it? TASS is publishing that http://www.arms-tass.su/?page=article&aid=24029&cid=25
You forgot this detail of Kommersant
China has also purchased four Il-78MK refueling planes, four A-50 long-distance radar planes and a large number of Mi-8/Mi-17 helicopters. In 2005, 34 Il-76MD military transport planes and four Il78-MK planes were contracted for. China also buys airplane engines from Russia in large numbers.
So the crappy source got it right they bought A-50U:D
MiG-23MLDWhat a crappy website. Does not match observed known intelligence of the PLAAF. 47 kits by 2003? You need to explain why the PLAAF has seven regiments that have J-11s by mid 2005.
Yeah so military parade is also not good eh? Crobato, that way of claiming a website is wrong is the poorest ways of proving your point i will refresh you your memory
Tass claimed China built 17 J-11s/Su-27SKs in 2006 and they were even recieving sights what did you say then? “- crappy website-” Rosoboronexport claims China has only bought a total of 280 Flankers, Pinko says “-crappy website-” now this website Promexport World Group Systems that agency specialized in military affairs and russian military exports even they give you their address and telephone in Russia in Moscow to be specific something that you do not even give that works with several russian book publishers and what can you say? “-crap webpage-” yes Crobato yes Crobato your intelligence does not match Rosoboronexport niether TASS niether no one who destroys your fantazies specially whe you read in that webpage that the delivery period for the J-11s was from 1998 to 2007/2007 even when TASS confirms that Russia is still shipping equipment for licensed Su-27SKs built in China
see you can contact them here AAA PWG SYSTEMS – Promexport World Group Systems of Consulting
Post Box:
Suite 175,
13 Aviacionnaya str.,
Moscow,
123182,
Russia
http://www.pwgs.org
e-mail: [email]pwgs@mail.ru[/email]
fax: +7 495 730-30-18
http://www.pwgs.org/contact1e.htm
The webpages are good because are Russian and some are the best sources: Interfax, Tass, Rosoboronexport crobato this is the sad reality the Su-27 is becoming obsolete even the Su-30MKI and it is only justifiable that the PAK FA is the only project in which Russia and India have not released too much information but the Su-27 come on man is the modern Su-15 of 2007, if you want the MiG-23ML of 2007, check lenta and you will see Russia is open in what respect military newshttp://www.lenta.ru/mil/
MiG-23MLDзаказаны is ordered or were going to order?
в поставке самолетов раннего предупреждения и управления, is in the delivery of an early-warning and control or are going to be delivered or niether if any has been delivered
Man, your are just good at tinkering the original words to suit your need
That is not true, you simply can not prove the webpage is wrong, and you use a tactic to prove it wrong that does not work and you claim i change the meaning, what happens i understand the meaning better than you
The table has several information, first they say Поставщик(S)/ Продавец лицензии (L) that means the supplier or garantor of the license in this case Russia, later they say Кол-во заказанных единиц how many have been ordered Обозначение вооружения the weapon`s designation Описание вооружения type of weapon Год поставки/ лицензии year of delivery or license granted Сроки поставок date of delivery Кол-во произведенных/ поставленных единиц how many have been supplied and delivered
заказаны после отказа Израиля (из-за давления США) в поставке самолетов раннего предупреждения и управления, статус не известен this means they were order but later under US preassure to Israel the status of the delivery is unknow in the case of the A-50U
in the case of the J-11, they specified that the date for the delivery was 1998-2007/2008, that the license was granted in 1996 and during the period from 1998 to 2003 only 47 were delivered
китайское обозначение “J-11”, поставка в 1998-2007/2008 гг.
MiG-23MLDDid I say it wrong?!
Your crap website lists China also purchased 4 A-50U mainstay AWACS from Russia, now tell us all louadly, flooggy’s bible site stated China has purchased 4 A-50U AWACS, So the KJ2000 is also license built Russian A50U.:diablo:
A-50U Mainstay самолет раннего предупреждения и управления :
Кол-во заказанных единиц: 4
заказаны после отказа Израиля (из-за давления США) в поставке самолетов раннего предупреждения и управления, статус не известен
http://www.pwgs.org/countries/china.htm
:rolleyes: :rolleyes:
It looks well you can not even read Russian, they are saying the Il-76 were going to be purchase as the result of Israel refusal of making the IL-76 AWACs under US pressure it says the status of the program is unknown it does not say when they are going to be delivered or niether if any has been delivered it is blanks
Of course you forget what you do not want to remember
China started a three-way talk with Israel and Russia, the country’s two traditional suppliers of weapon systems and technologies, in 1994 for a possible purchase of advanced AWACS aircraft. The project involved acquisition of the Russian-made Beriev A-50 Mainstay Airframe and to fit it with the Phalcon airborne early warning (AEW) radar and associated C3I system developed by Israeli Aircraft Industries Ltd (IAI). In 1996 China, Russia, and Israel reached initial agreement on a US$250 million deal to supply one such AWACS aircraft to the PLA Air Force (PLAAF).
In May 1997, Israel and Russia reached agreement on modifying one A-50 for $250 million, with the option of three more AWACS for a total cost of $1 billion. Russia secured about 20 percent of the deal. After some delay, in October 1999, Russia transferred an A-50 airframe to Israel for the installation of the Phalcon AEW radar system.. By May 2000, Israel had nearly completed work on the aircraft under the designation A-50I.
The Phalcon deal became an increasingly controversial issue between the United States and Israel. In 2000, the Clinton Administration voiced stronger objections to the sale and urged Israel to cancel the sale of the Phalcon, saying it is a system comparable to the U.S. AWACS and could collect intelligence and guide aircraft from 250 miles away. Finally, in July 2000 the Israeli government cancelled the deal with China.
China reacted to the U.S. interfering in the A-50I deal by starting a domestic programme to develop its own active phased-array radar. The radar development was carried out by Nanjing Research Institute of Electronic Technology (also known as 14 Institute) based in Nanjing, Jiangsu Province. The Israeli-made Phalcon radar and other onboard electronic systems were retrieved from the unfinished A-50I, and the airframe was handed to China via Russia in 2002.
source http://www.sinodefence.com/airforce/specialaircraft/kj2000.asp
MiG-23MLDWhat, now your sources conflict with each other? And you are changing course? See whose crap source first said “1st 3 years SAC manufactured 6-7 units of J11s/year”. I never claimed to be Chinese expert but certainly is just good enough here to bust your bubbles. Why the J11s manufactured in 1998 is uncountable? Because “it was sent back to Russia “ , what a crap excuse. Did Russian never return the 2 J11 or smashed the 2 J11 and give 2 new kits FOC that make your mind working out the idea: “So you will need to count form 1999”
Man, I said, you got a tracked record of posting junk, and certainly you’re enjoying yourself being fooled by them
Yeah yeah Pinko of course if you can not prove it wrong you have to rely in things like the Russian sources are wrong yeah yeah yeah, if you can understand well 47 is a very good number it fits very well becasue according to the Russians the first three years China built 6 or 7 aircraft a year, that gives you either 18-21 aircraft, you still have 27-30 aircraft left for 2002 and 2003 so China could have built 14 aircratf in 2002 and 13 in 2003;)
MiG-23MLDMan, even based on your data which is not complete in the 1st place, then let we see:
1st 3 years 7/years: J11 was 1st assembled in 1998, so 1998/1999/2000 ,there are 7X3=21 units
2001? Your data not cover.
2002: 15 units
2003-2004: your data not cover
2005: 17 units as your data.
2006? Your data not cover.
If we take 2001’s output something in between 7 -15, say 10, and rest years without data cover as 15 ( at low end)
Then the total: 3 X7 + 10 + 15 + 15X3 + 17 =108 more than the 105 kits delivered.
Your data even against you.
It is sad that a guy who claims to know everything about the Chinese aviation does not know too much
Dec 1998 First flight two Chinese-built Su-27SK, designated J-11
So you will need to count from 1999 since in 1998 those were sent back to Russia to fix them due to the bad quality of manufacture china did.
Su-27SK/Flanker-B истребитель/ штурмовик 1996 1998-2003 (47) сделка стоимостью 1,5-2,5 млрд. долл. США, собраны в Китае, китайское обозначение “J-11”, поставка в 1998-2007/2008
see also this Год поставки/ лицензии Сроки поставок Кол-во произведенных/ поставленных единиц
This means that Russia only delivered 47 Su-27 kits from 1998 to 2003 and that Russia will end up the delivery in the period 1998-2007 or even 2008;)
китайское обозначение “J-11”, поставка в 1998-2007/2008 гг.this means Chinese designation J-11 period of delivery 1998-2007/2008
Source http://www.pwgs.org/countries/china.htm
Через три года завод планирует выйти на темпы производства в шесть-семь Су-27 в год, а начиная с 2002 года довести их ежегодный выпуск до 15 единиц. За качеством сборки истребителей Су-27СК на заводе в Шеньяне наблюдают более 100 российских специалистов.
This clearly states that for first three years Shengyang built 6 or 7 J-11s/Su-27SKs a year and that changed in 2002 with a rate or production of 15 aircraft a year, it also says that 100 Russian technicians supervised the quality control in the Shengyang aircraft manufacturing facility, so as you can see Crobato, the Russians are aware where the J-11s are built and are in the aircraft manufacturing plant supervising things for Sukhoi
http://www.aviaport.ru/directory/aviation/316.html
MiG-23MLDNobody dispute that, only yourself are so self sentimental to say I was the liar to deny that, I refuted your claim that China bought 280 Su27s. Obviously you want to steal the original reported 280 flankers to 280 Su27SKs. China has bought 280 airframes including Su27SK, Su27UBK & Su30Mk, the detailed breakdown is 76 Su27SKs imported directly from Russia, 105 Su27SK kits from Russia and 100 Su30MKK/MK2 from Russia. The added total is 76 + 100 + 105= 281. See, the figure is tally with you always quoted.
Simply u intend to believe what you like to believe, and web is full of information so always u can find the kind of answer you like but once that answer fits you, you don’t like to assess its authentic & dn’t apply a reality check. I think in first several pages posters already give you a detailed counting of Chinese J11s and I quoted latest Kanwa report saying “A source from China said that it was to manufacture the last batch of J11A fighters in 2006”. the 15 units/year of J11 production is extremely low, but the turnover could be increase over years, do you agree? whatever you quoted only stated the SAC’s turnover of J11 in 2002, and no data after that, how you so sure, the SAC’s turnover rate of J11 is still 15 but never improved? Only If you have detailed J11 turnover rate of 2003/2004/2005/2006, and then add together, maybe you can say something? Or, otherwise, just listen to more reliable and direct sources?
You are ridiculer to suggest SAC’s J11B is tinkered around the imported su27 kit, as the kit not only contains airframe but also radar/Avionics/engine/eject seat/hud, etc, etc, because J11B is with Chinese Radar/engine/avionics/and wide angle hud. You mean SAC is throwing everything except the airframe away then modify the airframe with more composite/reducing weight etc and then finally fills in all Chinese stuff like Type 1474 slotted Array Radar, WS-10a engine, new cockpit etc, etc? How you so sure your tinkered airframe still fulfills the same stringent aerodynamic requirement of the plane with the changed TWR, the different weight & diameter of all the components. With new components, the weight distribution over the airframe is changing as well do you agree, why you want to believe miracle instead of common sense?
See, how a China basher going to at work, China building her J11 is at her own will and Sukhoi doesn’t object it as we observed and is not up to your mouth to judge. All a China Basher can’t forget is China is always building illegal fighter, pirated weapon etc, that’s why as long as he can achieve the bashing position, he doesn’t care common sense and reality and truth.
СИНГАН, 16 марта. (Корр.АРМС-ТАСС). Китай по-прежнему ориентируется на Россию в программе лицензионного производства истребителя завоевания превосходства в воздухе J-11 (китайский вариант Су-27СК). Однако в 2006 г. китайской авиапромышленностью будет построено не более 17 машин этого типа, сообщил еженедельник “Джейнс дифенс уикли”.
По данным экспертов этого издания, в октябре 2005 г. с Уральским оптико-механическим заводом (УОМЗ) был подписан договор на поставку новой партии оптико-электронных локационных станций ОЭПС-31E. Этот контракт стал первым на поставку неизвестного перечня бортового оборудования, подписанный китайскими заказчиками непосредственно с заводом. Предыдущие сделки проводились через компанию “Рособоронэкспорт”.
Заказ дополнительного количества прицелов ОЭПС-31E указывает на то, что Китай пока не в состоянии производить прицельные устройства, устанавливаемые на российском истребителе Су-27СК. Но при этом делаются попытки расширить национальное производство оборудования для J-11, включая БРЛС управления огнем, силовую установку и запчасти.
По информации “ОКБ Сухого”, в 2005 г. компания поставила в Китай запасных частей для ремонта истребителей Су-27СК/J-11 на сумму 100 млн дол.
Китай намерен использовать многоцелевые БРЛС управления огнем типа 1474 и ТРДД WS10A собственного производства вместо российских систем. Однако, как полагают эксперты, организация такого производства потребует еще много времени.
БРЛС типа 1474 пока проходит испытания на самолете Y-8, тогда как последние серийные истребители J-11 с заводскими номерами 16039, 16131, 30107, 20057, а также истребители с номерами 79 и 80 все еще оснащены двигателями AL-31F.
Эти самолеты сейчас развертываются в истребительных авиационных дивизиях 2, 1, 19, 12 и 7 Народно-освободительной армии Китая.
По данным еженедельника “Джейнс”, в 2002 г. один самолет J-11 был оборудован двигателем AL-31F, а другой – двигателем WS10A для проведения летных испытаний; эти сведения были позже подтверждены официальными китайскими
SINGAN], on March 16. ([Korr].[ARMS]- TASS). China as before still reliies in Russia in the program of the license production of the air-superiority fighter J -11 (Chinese version Su-27SK). However, in 2006. Chinese aircraft industry build not more than 17 machines of this type, According to the data of the experts of this publication, in October 2005. with the Ural optical-mechanical plant ([UOMZ]) was signed the agreement to the delivery to the new IRST system [OEPS]-31E. This contract became the first for the delivery of the unknown enumeration of onboard equipment, signed by Chinese customers directly with the plant. The previous transactions were conducted through the company “[Rosoboroneksport]”.
The order of an additional quantity of sights [OEPS]-31E indicates that China thus far cannot produce the aiming devices, installed on the Russian fighter Su-27SK. But in this case the attempts to enlarge the national component of equipment for J-11, are being made, including [BRLS] of the fire control
The order of an additional quantity of sights [OEPS]-31E indicates that China thus far cannot produce the aiming devices, installed on the Russianfighter Su-27K. But in this case the attempts to enlarge the national component of equipment for J-11, are being carried out, including [BRLS] of the fire control, power plant and spare parts.
According to the information “of the OKB Sukhoi ”, in 2005. company placed in China spare parts for repairing the destroyers J-11 for the sum of 100 million dol.
China is intended to use multipurpose radar of the fire control of the type 1474 and the new chinese domestic jet engine WS10A instead of the Russian systems. However, as experts assume, the organization of this production will require still much time.
The fire control radar of the type 1474 thus far undergoes tests on aircraft Y -8, whereas last series destroyers J -11 with factory serial numbers 16039, 16131, 30107, 20057, and also with numbers 79 and 80 are still equipped with engines AL-31F.
These aircraft now are deployed on the air divisions 2, 1, of 19, 12 and 7 people’s liberation armies of China.
http://www.arms-tass.su/?page=article&aid=24029&cid=25
See TASS reported that in 2006 China only built less than 17 Su-27SK so you can calculate if China is building an average of 15 aircraft since 2002 they still have not finished all the russian kits;)
You should be called a China basher not me, i am giving a good image of the Chinese governemnt saying they have respected the agreement with Sukhoi and Russia only you in your fantasies claim China is breaking the contract;)
MiG-23MLDYou are the only one talking about “illegal” line of J-11s, Strevitel. Making an absurd statement and then arguing against your own statement is the kind of stupidity that got you banned in CDF.
The J-11B was out in model form since 2002. We saw it with air to ground ordinance that were not part of the SK packages.
So the argument is not that China is using an “illegal” line but this is how the contract was always constructed. China is building the J-11Bs under auspices of the contract.
Golden Dragon
I am not a supporter of the hypothesis China has built unlicense J-11s, so your whole reply to my post is senseless read the whole thread and you will see i am not advocating China has open an illegal line of unlicense J-11s;) to the contrary i have said China has respected the license.
MiG-23MLDMig23: By saying “opened again” are you stating that the J-11 production line is now closed and may be reopened in the future? This is news to me. As far as i know, China is still producing J-11s at full speed and even modifying it with both airframe and avionics changes.
I will tell what i have read from Rusian and even some Chinese webpages i have read.
I have read in several webpages that they quoted Jane`s report about a reduction in weight due to extensive use of composite, a substantial reduction in radar cross section signature and better electronics.
I have even read in some Chinese webpages that the J-11 has not better performance than the original Su-27SK.
Now i have read in Russian webpages that the J-11B is the base for a very advanced chinese fighter, that Russia wants to cooperate, that the Chinese were still assembling their J-11s in 2006 even recieving some elements from Russia among them sights.
However all the Russian reports i have read claim China has not buy more than 280 airframes among them 105 J-11s.
I have read the first three years of assembly China did assemble no more than 21 aircraft in total since China had a production rate of 6 or 7 J-11s a year, and since 2002 it assembled 15 aircraft a year so it is possible they are still assembling aircraft but all are kits delivered rom Russia and modified in China even the latest J-11B.
That sounds more plausible than saying China has open an illegal line of J-11s.
i have read China needs to upgrade her J-11s since these have very outdated avionics and it is possible since close to 60% of the Su-27s is built in China, the Chinese have modified their kits making them J-11Bs and they have been assembling them without breaking any license.
MiG-23MLDPoint1. Russian transferred Su30 technology or not is unknown, but SAC currently is developing a 2 seat J11B variant now seemed to be called J11BS. The J11BS could be the candidate to be indigenized Su30MK .
You know what your point will irritate Floogger most? The point 4 that says “China is now clearly able to produce as many flankers as it likes and modify them as it like”. All the much ado about nothing of him is trying to against this point
You are wrong
i am not speculating, if i do find a russian sources such as TASS or Rosoboronexport addmiting China now is building real indiginisized Su-27SKs that are not covered by the original contract i will addmit i was wrong however what i am just listening are conspiracy theories and speculations that prove nothing, of people who speculate and late turn specualtions facts.
Russian sources sooner or later will report about the J-11B and sooner or later will report if China has opened again the line of Su-27s without kits supplied by Sukhoi and Russia, however while i do not see that i hardly will believe those rumours you want to believe of Russia has been again screwed by China.
MiG-23MLDthat’s total bs, China is continuously purchasing newer and more advanced systems, they are just not Russian made that’s all. You know what the PLAN crews say about Sov? They like using it better than Sov than 052B/C, because the combat system on it is low tech like what they are used to in older PLAN ships. So, they need to absorb?
Man do you read russian? they are talking about the Russian products, and also refering to the fact the Chinese market has been saturated in terms of some weaposn systems, buy the way who is selling weapons to China besides Russia and israel?
MiG-23MLDYa, in your world, black is white so no surprise to see that you count Su30Mk as Su27. of course I think Crobato is more warm hearted than me maybe he can educate you late why Su30Mk can’t be called Su27, although they have utilized an identical airframe of Flanker.
China has finished all that 105 kits by 2006, an age of manufacturing new type J11 fighters is about to start
Man you report does not even mention who is talking it is a rumour, because number one they do not mention what source who claims that, second they do not mention even what model, they even mention a naval version, they also say they would, not they will.
They even go as far as saying Russia and China are in negociations and it is a cooperation so they are not saying they are unlicense but very likely they are working in a new deal
Multiple sources from the Chinese aviation industry and the Russian military industry confirmed that the two countries were indeed negotiating on the possibility of cooperation on Su33 ship-borne fighters.
however there is a TASS article titled китайскому истребителю завоевания превосходства в воздухе J-11B or Chinese built J-11B fighter , however i have not been able to read it because i am not member.
MiG-23MLDJust go straight and tell us Su27 equal to Su30Mk or not
Then we will know who is the liar.
You are the lair because the Su-30 is a new denomination for an aircraft that basicly is a SU-27 either the Su-27 Flnaker B or Flanker C, of course you can not say in you mind i was wrong, but i know you can not prove China has bought more than the 280 flankers Rosoboronexport affirms and that China built more than 105 Flankers as Rosoboronexport claims;)
MiG-23MLDLiar, what’s your purpose to blur the line, yet again, your original words I quoted is 280 Su27, now you say Su30MKK & su30MK2 also Su27? A level like that why so eager to achieve position in order to bash China?
You are the liar who claims robsoborontexport lies and who claims saying the true is attacking China because you are wrong, i have not attacked at any moment China but the only defense left to you is say that becasue you are wrong i have attacked China, but man be a man swallow the truth as it is, you are not China, you are pinko and ROSOBORONEXPOT proves me right.
MiG-23MLDWhat source claimed what is irrelevant especially you have a tracked record of posting junk. As long as the world knows China only directly imported 76 Su27SK from Russia and plus 105 kits for assembly in SAC. Your lie that China bought 280 Su-27s will never be the truth even you repeat 1000 times.
See how the mouth can build jet plane. :rolleyes:
Pinko
Funny that link is from an official source more official than you imagine. of course for you in your desperate need to fantasize, can not addmit that Rosoboronexport the Russian offical agency for the export of weapons can say that China bought only 280 Flankers including Su-27SK, Su-30MKK, Su-27UB and J-11 (Su-27SKs with Chinese denomination) of course you now in your fantasy you feel you can claim the Rosoboronexport in an article of February 2007 lies :rolleyes: Pinko who is posting junk for sure is not me
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