MiG-23MLDso you are not going to answer that question?
Again, any kanwa opinion cannot be treated as evidence, since we’ve actually seen far more than 40 J-10A (we know it’s wrong to state something like that). Again, the only thing you can take for sure is anything from an interview that kanwa conducts. In this case, sukhoi obviously indicated that they did not work on J-11B.
So kanwa is only good when it is convinient for you, Sukhoi never has claimed the J-10B is an aircraft build additionally of the 105 aircraft China built, in that comment they said China is an independent aircraft manufacturer, the J-11B uses Al-31s however you want to quote only the parts that suits you well for an specualtion, Sukhois says Shenyang is an independent manufacturer and Sukhoi only is a consultant that is good to quote but the J-11B uses AL-31 is not uhmm…:rolleyes: use the logic, if the J-10 still uses Al-31s and China still buys AL-31s why then you want to claim a speculation, up to what i read as some people have said the J-11B is an upgrade of the last batches of Sukhois, and up to what i have understand the first J-11Bs only have chinese radar and avionics but still have the old AL-31s, china has not signed a second agreement with Russia for the construction of the remaining 90 J-11s, Kanwa also quoted that.
China still buys AL-31F for the PLAAF`s Flanker fleet including the J-11s
I am not excluding the J-11B might be re-engine in the future, what i am disagreement is the idea China is building more than 105 J-11s because in that page they said the improving of the production line will be before the last J-11As are built before the last 105 J-11 is built and by improving they meant the J-11B.
裝根據生產計劃﹐200根據生產計劃﹐2007年之前將完成105架J11﹑J11A的組裝工作。因此﹐2 007年對於中國空軍而言是非常重要的一年﹐漢和防務評論總編輯平可夫首次透露中國將繼續生產根據生產計劃 ﹐2007年之前將完成105架J11﹑J11A的組裝工作。因此﹐2007年對於中國空軍而言是非常重要 的一年﹐漢和防務評論總編輯平可夫首次透露中國將繼續生產J11B改良型戰鬥機。
J11B改良型戰鬥機。
Russian sources never claim the Chinese build more than 105 kits
see they claimed the AL-31 is still powering the J-11B
在質量上﹐J11B的改良將是劃時代的﹐除了發動機依然是俄羅斯生產的AL31F之外﹐J11B的其他各個 分系統都大幅度實現了國產化﹐而且能夠發射中國產的主動雷達誘導空對空導彈以及其他精確制導武 器。
MiG-23MLDlol, 40 J-10A have been built? that already invalidates your source.
Again, Kanwa believes that J-11B uses AL-31, but it’s not at SAC. On the other hand, Sukhoi explicitly told kanwa that it’s not involved in J-11B. That’s the difference.
You still haven’t answered why China would need to produce numerous J-11B prototypes and test them for a couple of years unless it’s been changed structurally and fitted with a different engine.
The Russians are quoting KANWA 😀 yes your loved Kanwa:D they are saying 40 J-10As are operational in the PLAAF, that adds up with the early deliveries of Al-31FNs even with the latest batch of 100 AL-31FN that Russia confirmed in 2006 and signed in 2005, 154 AL-31FNs have been bought by China and they are saying 40 J-10As;)
MiG-23MLDThe F-2 is still sourcing key components from Lockheed Martin by declaration, the J-11B isn’t. This is not a matter of “opinion”. This is a matter of if they are actually doing it or not.
And simply, the Chinese are not.
Not true. The effective MTBO of an AL-31F is around 750 hours, if it does not run into trouble earlier. The MTBO of a Flanker airframe is 2000 flight hours, this being the Su-27SK and Su-30MKK. The Su-30MKI or at least the later batches, along with the Su-30MKM is around 6000 flight hours. Dunno about the MK2s. The service life of the PLAAF Su-27SKs and the IAF Su-30Ks seem to indicate no problem at all reaching that 2000 hours.
The J-11B uses according to KANWA AL-31s and even there are reports well based that it is intended to use WS-10s and probably in the future they will use it, according to NOVOSTY the russian news outlet based upon a KANWA report the J-10 still uses AL-31s, in fact they claim 40 J-10As have been built
К настоящему времени произведено около 40 истребителей J-10A, все они находятся на вооружении китайских ВВС
and China has stocked up 154 Al-31FNs, that is correct since China has bought around 154 AL-31FNs
По данным KANWA, китайские военные уже закупили 154 российских двигателя для истребителей, а общий план подразумевает производство не менее 300 истребителей J10А.
they also say China has intentions to sell the J-10 to North Korea and the MiG-29 might have some tough competition from the J-10 in the international markets since it is cheaper despite it uses a Russian Al-31, they go as far as claim the MiG-29 might have to compete with the J-10 in some african and asian countries among then Suda, Angola, Nigeria and Iran.
J-10A и МиГ-29СМТ являются самолетами одного и того же поколения, кроме того, на китайских истребителях используются российские двигатели компании “Салют”, что делает их еще более похожими” – поясняет Чан в интервью РИА Новости.
“Скорее всего, китайские истребители будут конкурировать с российскими в таких странах, как Судан, Ангола, Нигерия, Иран и Таиланд” – пояснил гонконгский эксперт.
MiG-23MLDBS.
KANWA article is stating an opinion about the J-11B. However, it is wrong based on the state media CCTV evidence.
There was no 150 AL-31Fs delivered in 2005. You are an outright LIAR.
Why? Because you are confusing the 150 “order” and the 180 actual order as two orders, when in fact, its really one order. The 150 engines were in the negotiation phase, which was later changed to 180.
Me, making a speculation when you are actively distorting information in front of everyone.
There is good reason why you are banned in some forums.
WRONG. Liming has an agreement not with Lyulka but with GE. That’s why the agreement is called GE-Liming.
More lies from you. China has not bought Su-33s.
Your credibility goes down even further when you cannot spell AL-31FM-1 even correctly.
Your credibility goes down even more when you say Lyulka offered the engine with the wrong spelling when in fact, it was SALUT, and Salut is not Lyulka (Saturn-Lyulka). You cannot even tell the two companies apart. Saturn is offering Project 117 or something like that as a counter against the FM1. They have in fact became competitors.
You have no idea that OFFERED does not mean its BOUGHT. When a company OFFERS something to a customer, it means that the company is the one that is trying to make the marketing initiative to the customer, and not the customer making the primary request. That is an indication of a relationship in trouble because if the customer has an actual need, they would have approached the supplier first, and so the customer initiates the transaction, and not from the supplier side.
Sukhoi has previously claimed that China was “interested” on the Su-27SM, the Su-30MK3, and the Kh-59MK, all of which they never bought and then “interested” on the Su-30MK2, which they later dropped after one order. Previous Chinese “interest” are things like the Zhuks and the A-50, none of which happened. “Interest” therefore is something on record that has not proven to have any factual weight. People claim “interest” in order to make their company sound good.
No. What is proof is that the WS-10A has gone into CCTV state media, the designer has been given technical award, and the umbrella company announcing its production. Not to mention having constructed a brand new engine plant starting in August 2005.
Another thing that is wrong about you is that the kit based J-11s have engines included with the kits. The 20 engines so far delivered could not have been used in the last 17 J-11s made since the number don’t match (the kits would have required 34 engines at least not including spares). 20 engines delivered does not also mean 20 engines accepted. Some engines will be rejected like the 15 RD-93s where 5 was rejected.
Irrelevant. That piece of news is OLD.
See that the Chinese bought 150 AL-31 for Su-27s in 2005 here is the news by ROSOBORONEXPORT so you can not say it is not official
Московское машиностроительное производственное предприятие “Салют” поставит в Китай 150 авиационных двигателей АЛ-31Ф на сумму более $550 млн.Sorry but that article is the same negotiation that led to the 180 engine buy. The 150 number was the previous estimate adjusted to 180 later. It does not mean that there are two seperate orders one 150 and the other 180.
It is true i made a mistake Saturn and Salyut are now two different companies however originally the AL-31 was named Lyulka Al-31 and was until recent years they split the company, in that i stand corrected however it does not mean that LIMING and Salyut are not building gas turbines;), Salyut did not offer the AL-31FM-1, the Al-31FM-1 is not better than current WS-10s or AL-31Fs, Salyut did not train Liming for servicing AL-31s or they have not deepened their cooperation
About the Su-33, it is true i did overplay the scope of the deal, China has expressed interest and Rusia has claimed that the SU-33 deal is in the stage of early negociation but if it is carried out will mean a purchase of USD $ 2 billion dollars.
Чжухай (Китай). 1 ноября. ИНТЕРФАКС-АВН — В Федеральной службе по военно-техническому сотрудничеству подтверждают интерес Китая к закупке российских палубных истребителей Су-33, но отмечают, что переговоры на этот счет находятся на самом начальном этапе
This says that China has espressed interest in the purchase of the Su-33 and the negociations are in an early stage
source http://www.sukhoi.org/exhibitions/china2006/smi/?id=788
however the question crobato is if Sukhoi has been rip off? Has Sukhoi declared China builds more than 105 kits? is Sukhoi so desperate because China is building unlicense Su-27SK that will offer the Su-33 at a bargain price? no it is not like that Sukhoi is pleased with the Chinese that even is willing to sell them more flankers this time Su-33sand Sukhoi never has reported China builds unlicense Sukhois or China has signed a new contract for the remaining 90 Su-27SK
MiG-23MLDYou read amateur websites like Venik recopying some KANWA nonsense. The Lavi and the J-10 airframe have very distinctively different lines, and claiming the J-10 is made out of the original lavi airframe is like claiming a Maserati is made out of a Ferrari frame. How can a variable inlet be a “compromised” inlet?
“Will supply” means it s not BOUGHT as in past tense. Your argumentation has no proper relationship with tenses. You take articles that use the words “will”, “interest”, “offer” and assume them to be a past tense accomplished FACT, which is completely misleading because “will supply”, “interest”, and “offer” do not indicate a signed agreement at the time of the wording of the article. For example, there are many articles about the 100 AL-31FNs in 2004, but the agreement was only signed in July 2005.
Crobato
You did not even read well what i wrote, i said China bought 280 AL-31s among them 180 AL-31Fs and 100 AL-31FNs i never duplicated the purchase if not i would had said China bought 430 AL-31s, quote me when i say China bought 430 AL-31s however i did not say that, i only said China bought 180 AL-31Fs+100 AL-31FN=280 AL-31s😀
LIMING-SALYUT do build gas turbine you like it or not they signed that agreement, both ROSOBORONEXPORT and TASS reported it of course are trying to twist the text in order to claim the order of 280 Al-31s never happened.
MiG-23MLDWhere the **** it says it is being used in the J-11B.
Maybe you didn’t see the CCTV video of the interview of the WS-10A designer. He showed the engine in front of reporter camera opened from an access hatch inside a J-11, then explained various details in camera as he pointed the various accessories. The designer was later awarded by the state in a ceremony for technical achievement.
Frankly I would rather go with an official state media making an announcement/admittance rather than some vague guess by a poorly edited and error corrected news article being misinterpreted by a loon.
Crobato
The KANWA article was the article posted by Pinko that claimed the J-11B uses AL-31s, the fact is China bought 280 AL-31Fs and AL-31FNs in several contracts signed by both parties, the first one in 2005 when they bought 150 Al-31s and 100 al-31FNs, and by 2006 and 2007 180 AL-31s were going to be delivered , in 2006 they reported the delivery of 180 AL-31s to China were going to start in 2006 and continue in 2007.
You are making another speculation, Russian reports also report about the WS-10, they know China wants to power the J-10 and J-11 with WS-10s that is not a mystery for the Russians however you use you typical tactic of bashing opponents and links as the only way to support your speculations,
you knowledge about the China-Russia aircraft relations is quit poor, currently Salyut and Liming are building gas turbines togather that technically are not much different from the AL-31 and Liming has been trained by Salyut to serve the AL-31s of course you will say China builds J-11Bs like pancakes and can be produced at will by China, however no Russian sources claims that.
China even has bought Su-33s, this shows Sukhoi is pleased by the Chinese side, that is the reality, in 2007 there are no Chinese engines that can compete with the AL-31MF-1 niether with the AL-41, the Russians are upgrading their Flankers with that new engine, the AL-31MF-1, for the Chinese also is important to upgrade their aircraft, Salyut has offered the AL-31MF-1 and they reported very likely China has interest in those aircraft engines
.
You are making a grail of fantasy claiming the WS-10 will solve all the problems China has, in fact some Russian reports claim their experts know for China it will take a few years more to really make operational the J-11B with WS-10, showing a prototype fitted with a WS-10 is not a proof you have operational aircraft, even more if you still buy 280 AL-31s among them 100 AL-31FN for the J-10 and 180 AL-31Fs for Su-27s
read this news
Компании “Салют” и “Лимин” на авиасалоне в Чжухае подписали протокол о расширении сотрудничества
ЧЖУХАЙ, 2 ноября. (ИТАР-ТАСС, АРМС-ТАСС).
Российская и китайская авиадвигателестроительные компании “Салют” и “Лимин” подписали сегодня в рамках авиасалона “Эйршоу Чайна-2006” протокол о расширении сотрудничества.
Как сообщил на пресс-конференции генеральный директор ММПП “Салют” Юрий Елисеев, в документе рассматривается возможность создания совместного предприятия. Оно может быть образовано уже к концу следующего года.
На первом этапе совместное предприятие будет заниматься реализацией уже существующей продукции гражданского назначения. Затем партнеры будут совместно разрабатывать энергетические, мусороперерабатывающие и опреснительные установки на основе технологий “Салюта”. В перспективе планируется сотрудничество по созданию авиационных двигателей в области как гражданской, так и военной авиации.
Как отметил генеральный директор шэньянской корпорации “Лимин” Цян Вэй, компания “Салют” – их давний и важнейший партнер. С помощью “Салюта” они освоили осуществление полного капремонта двигателей российского производства для самолетов Су-27 ВВС НОАК. “Салют” поставляет двигатели для этих тяжелых истребителей, а также для китайского самолета “Супер-10”.
http://www.pwgs.org/news/news_03_11_06.htm
This article talks about the collaboration between Salyut and Liming has been broadened in fact they say With the aid of the “Salyut” , Liming has mastered the realization of the complete overhaul of the engines of Russian manufacture for the PLAAF aircraft Su-27 . “Salyut” supplies engines for these heavy fighters, and also for the Chinese aircraft “J-10”.
See that the Chinese bought 150 AL-31 for Su-27s in 2005 here is the news by ROSOBORONEXPORT so you can not say it is not official
Московское машиностроительное производственное предприятие “Салют” поставит в Китай 150 авиационных двигателей АЛ-31Ф на сумму более $550 млн.
“На прошлой неделе был подписан очередной контракт на поставку в Китай авиационных двигателей АЛ-31Ф, производства ММПП “Салют”. В соответствии с данным контрактом в Китай будет поставлено 150 двигателей АЛ-31Ф на сумму более $550 млн.”, – сообщил “Интерфаксу-АВН” в воскресенье источник в оборонно-промышленном комплексе.
Он отметил, что эти двигатели предназначены для установки на находящиеся на вооружении ВВС Китая истребители Су-27СК и Су-30МКК. По оценкам экспертов, в течение 6 лет объем закупок Китаем авиадвигателей АЛ-31Ф может составить $1,2-1,4 млрд.
Moscow machine-building production enterprise “Salyut” will supply to China 150 aircraft engines AL -31F for the sum of more than $550 million. ” last week it was signed the supply agreement for delibery to China of aircraft engines AL-31F, of MMPP” Saluyt manufacture “. In accordance with the data by the contract China will be purchase 150 engines AL-31F for the sum more than $550 mln. “, reported” Interfax-AVN “on Sunday source in the defense- industrial complex. It noted that these engines were intended for the installation to located in arsenal VVS of China destroyers Su-27SK and Su-30MKK. According to the estimations of experts, for 6 years the volume of the purchases by China of aircraft engines AL -31F can compose $1,2-1,4 billion.
MiG-23MLDi don’t think you seem to understand the last thing I wrote, but I guess you are more intent on trying to wage a war of nationalism than to listen to facts.
fact:
-Israel, Japan, or whatever only made limited attempts at indigeonizing their aircrafts
-It still uses American engines, parts, etc even if some have been replaced with their own.
-Israel, Japan, etc did not make their own engine on these aircrafts
-China made their own engine for the J-11B
-China replaced the Russian avionics with their own
-the J-11B is a fully Chinese indigenous aircraft with Russian ROOTS, but that is as far as it goes.
-you don’t hear alot of people calling the Tu-4 being American do they, just that it was derived from an American aircraft. the Tu-4 is 100% built by Russia.so lets stop pointing fingers and listen to the truth.
I will be utterly honest with you, i have read that China builds between 60% or 70% of the Su-27SK even in Russian sources, howeer they never say what this does include, you are saying the J-11B is 100% built in China but what does mean 60% or 70%? why then Russia sent kits? you are speculating since the Russians never say China builds unlicense aircraft and the last remaining 90 J-11s contract was never signed specially when China still buys AL-31 and KANWA claims the J-11B has AL-31
It is not logic since the Russiasn never defined that 70% means the entire airframe and China only recieved engines and radars for the last kits, the Russians said they send kits for all 105 the J-11s, in fact it can mean the 70% part of the airframe is build in China and the rest including the engines avionics and remaining part of the Su-27SK airframe is built in Russia since Russia always sent kits
The whole point is 70% can mean several things and does not mean the entire airframe is built in China, it can mean simply not all the aircraft is built in China and for sure it means China recieves 30% of a Su-27 from Russia
MiG-23MLDyou have to recognize the difference between opinion and fact in a kanwa article. The part about 180 AL-31 is an opinion. He thinks they will be using AL-31, but the reality is that J-11B by definition uses WS-10A. Those AL-31 are for replacements. Even certain Russian sources translated on royfc corroborates to this. The other stuff is clearly what he got out of Sukhoi. That’s a fact that sukhoi told him.
Hey Nick, I think what hallo mentionned was all that article mentionned on MKI.
The Kanwa articles mentions the J-11B has Al-31s, the Russian articles is not an opinion it is a fact.
You have to use logic, why China needs Al-31s to replace engines? number one, it is simple it is better fit Russian engines because number one these have been proven to be reliable, are the original engines fitted to the Su-27 and all Flanker variants, the vast majority of speculations specially the ones with lot of glamour claim that China is building J-11s like pancakes, fitting WS-10s very easily and claiming the J-11B is a superFlanker.
Some say it is not even a Su-27 but an original Chinese design however it is more logic to think fitting the WS-10 is not going to be an easy task
In fact i have read in russian reports that claim the J-10 had some structural troubles throughtout its design development history, when they modified the original LAVI airframe and made it a J-10 fitting a new inlet and a new engine, they claim that the J-10 has a compromised inlet far from the perfect airframe structure.
All the Russian webpages i have read always talked about the J-11 as a Su-27 license built in China and the Kanwa article simply is claiming the Chinese basicly are going to fit avionics to the Flanker J-11B variant to what is basicly a modified russian kit.
The Russian are aware the chinese fitted a WS-10 to a J-11, however at least from what you can read and search in YANDEX, MAIL.RU and RAMBLER or even google or Yahoo there is very scant information in the Russian language about the J-11B and i mean ROSOBORONEXPORT or TASS do not offer a lot of webpages about it, if you look for that information the search will yield few results and at least for me has not been easy but nevertheless in the russian language reports i have found there is almost no information about the J-11B and there is nothing that claims China is building unlicense Flankers or even more than 105 kits
in fact see that this is what the official Salyut webpage says
Контракты на поставку в Китай 180 двигателей АЛ-31Ф (100 из них закреплено за ММПП “Салют” и 80 за Уфимским моторостроительным произодственным объединением, – “ИФ-АВН”) и 100 двигателей АЛ-31ФН были заключены “Рособорнэкспортом” в 2005 году. Их суммарная стоимость оценивается экспертами в сумму
They mention China bought 100 AL-31FN for the J-10s and 180 AL-31F, they even go as far as saying they want to buy the latest AL-31FM1
source
http://www.salut.ru/ViewTopic.php?Id=336
MiG-23MLDRussian sources never fully declared the number of AL-31Fs delivered in China. The only documentable declaration was the last order of 180 AL-31Fs, but never declared in public what all the previous orders were, or how many were attached to the kits. The 180 engines seem to fit well as spare engines considering the size of China’s Flanker fleet.
They don’t however mix AL-31F and AL-31FN numbers. The AL-31F orders were a combination of Salut and UMPO deliveries while the AL-31FN were completely Salut’s.
Please disregard Flogger and his vague and outdated sources (never anything in 2007). I cannot care less what his “sources” declare—the absolute evidence is what is photographically and observably verifiable. Actual planes speak louder than words.
If you take what is claimed to be declared in paper, vs. what is actually out there, the results do not match. Remember the seventh regiment is confirmed operational in May of 2005, not 2006. This dichotomy between declarations in paper vs. the observed evidence is one of the mysteries of this coproduction agreement which is not easy to concile (been thinking on this for years now). Between paper vs. evidence, evidence has superior weight.
The bottom line, is that as of the middile of 2005, there are seven confirmed Su-27/J-11 regiments in operational status, not counting the Su-30 regiments which are seperate. We know what these units are, their regiment and division numbers, a good estimation of their unit size and basically their jurisdictions and locations.
Crobato
That is totally unaccurate, they say this 180 АЛ-31Ф для замены выработавших ресурс двигателей на истребителях типа Су-27 ВВС Китая, they say very clearly 180 AL-31Fs for the Chinesese air force Su-27s so at no moment they are mixing the engines.
outdate ? no it is not outdated because that report is from TASS and from the Zhuhai air show 2006 so it is only 7 months old and it says this year China will recieve them
Остальные двигатели мы отгрузим в 2007 году”, – сказал Елисеев.
Why you do not say the truth? the truth is China still buys Russian equipment and the Sukhoi Su-27s and Su-30s stiil recieve AL-31, i see nothing special in that.
The KANWA article says the J-11B still is powered by Al-31s and Salyut says China bought 180 AL-31s..
You are saying also a lie trying to cover for your speculations, the Russias do release information and they say how much they sell specially an article as the Su-27 that is an aging and incresingly obsolecent fighter.
MiG-23MLDA PLAAF regiment has around in average 24 to 32 fighters. 24 basically operational, 4 for a training flight, 4 for reserve.
How many PLAAF regiments operate?
7 for Su-27SKs, UBKs and J-11s. These are all basically mixed together. At least four of these regiments have known serials that total 30-32.
Simply by the orbat of Su-27s and J-11s, the numbers not only exceed 105 but can reach past 120 to 130. This does not count test and trial regiments attached with the CFTC, of which at least five planes have been spotted in an CFTC field (Google Earth). Given that some of the older Su-27s would have attrited by now, the number of J-11s would have been higher.
4 PLAAF regiments operate Su-30MKK, each with 19 aircraft. PLAAF bomber regiments, of which these fall under, generally operate around 20.
1 PLANAF regiment operates Su-30MK2 with 24 aircraft. The numbers indicate a reorgnization of PLANAF bomber regiments to exceed over 20.
The experience of looking these regiments tell you that the PLAAF do not GAP their numbers.
If a regiment receives 19 Su-30MKKs, they were numbered 01 to 19 respectively. They are not numbered 01 to 30 and with gaps in between. The PLANAF 4th Division got 24 Si-30MK2s, and subsequently the planes are numbered 01 to 24. This has been true of the formation of other Flanker regiments even to the first and second one. When the first Su-27 regiment was formed with the 3rd, the planes were numbered 01 to 26, no gapping. The next regiment was formed with the 2nd Division was numbered 27 to 48. This regiment later added J-11s, increasing the numbering to at least 55. Again no gaps and all true to the number of delivery. The last UBK regiment formed with the 33rd Division was 28 planes, and they were numbered 49 to 76. No gaps. The Chinese added J-11s numbered 77 to 80. Total = 32 planes.
19th Division regiment = spotted with J-11 no. 30. This regiment inherited all the Su-27SKs and UBKs from the 3rd when the 3rd moved to Su-30MKKs. 7th and 1st Division = spotted with UBKs numbered 29 to 32. The UBKs are unlikely to be wearing their original numbers ince these numbers appeared in both regiments at once and so must have been repainted to match current regiment numbering. All these are based on observed, videoed and photographed data. If you are going with observed ORBAT *alone* with known and proven presumptions about PLAAF regimental structure, its going to well exceed 105 J-11s.
The numbers i have read in Russian webpages 280 Flakers of all types 105-110 J-11 kits are included.
Delivered from 1998-2007/2008 assembled probably in the same period
in fact the Russians still supply spare parts for the chinese Su-27s and Su-30s see it
ЧЖУХАЙ, 4 ноября. (Корр.АРМС-ТАСС). Уральский оптико-механический завод (УОМЗ) подписал на авиасалоне “Эйршоу Чайна-2006” протокол, позволяющий в ближайшее время заключить контракт на поставку запасных частей к оптико-электронным прицельным станциям 31Е и 31ЕМК, которые входят в состав китайских самолетов Су-27 и Су-30 разных модификаций
ZHUKHAI, on 4 November. (Korr.ARMS- TASS). The Ural optical-mechanical plant (UOMZ) signed at the Zhuhai AIRSHOW CHINA 2006, the protocol, which makes possible to soon conclude supply agreement of spare parts to the optical-electronic aiming stations for 31E and 31EMK, which enter into the composition of Chinese aircraft Su-27 and Su-30 the different modifications
Source http://www.arms-tass.su/?page=article&aid=32400&cid=124
China still wants AL-31s for their Su-27s and Su-30s
Что касается второго китайского контракта по поставке 180 АЛ-31Ф для замены выработавших ресурс двигателей на истребителях типа Су-27 ВВС Китая, то 100 из этих двигателей будет выпускаться на “Салюте”, а еще 80 – на Уфимском моторостроительном производственном объединении (УМПО). В этом году ММПП “Салют” поставит в Китай 20 АЛ-31Ф, которые уже построены на предприятии. “Остальные двигатели мы отгрузим в 2007 году”, – сказал Елисеев.
Он также сообщил, что Китай уже подал заявку на двигатель АЛ-31Ф-М1 применительно к модернизации китайского парка истребителей Су-27/Су-30. Как будет проходить эта ремоторизация, пока не известно. По словам Елисеева, возможно завод в Шеньяне предпочтет собирать двигатели, а мы будем поставлять модернизированные узлы. Но это дело будущего, а пока лишь ясно, что китайская сторона предпочла вариант модернизации, предложенный ММПП “Салют”.
The second Chinese contract to supply 180 AL-31F for replacement of spent engines for fighter like Su-27 of the Chinese air force PLAAF, 100 of these engines will be produced at the “Salyut manufacturing plant”, and another 80 at the Ufa motor manufacturing association manufacturing plant (UMPO). This year MMPP Salyut delivered to China 20 AL-31Fs that had already been built at the plant. “The other engines we will shipped in 2007,” said Eliseev. He also said that China had already applied for engine AL-31F-M1 for the modernization of Chinese Su-27/Su-30 fighter fleet. How this remotorization will occur, is not yet known. According to Eliseev maybe the factory in Shenyang prefers to collect the engines, and we will supply the modernized units. But in future, and so far only, it is clear that the Chinese side chose the modernization proposed by MMPP Salyut.
MiG-23MLDNot difficult to understand why Mig-23 had been permenantly banned in CDF
Banned yes but it does not sadden me, if still you post things like J-11Bs fitted with AL-31s and hardly i can say you have proved your point, in few words buddy to be happy i just need my wife, my daughter, do good and God, i only need that.
在質量上﹐J11B的改良將是劃時代的﹐除了發動機依然是俄羅斯生產的AL31F之外﹐J11B的其他各個 分系統都大幅度實現了國產化﹐而且能夠發射中國產的主動雷達誘導空對空導彈以及其他精確制導武 器
Saying because Sukhoi does not know how many J-11Bs have been produced means they have produced J-11Bs without Russian kits however they have AL-31s is quit extrange do not you think so? sounds more like Sukhoi does not know how many upgraded J-11Bs are nevertheless these are powered by AL-31s and have been build before the all 105 kits have been assembled
裝根據生產計劃﹐200根據生產計劃﹐2007年之前將完成105架J11﹑J11A的組裝工作。因此﹐2 007年對於中國空軍而言是非常重要的一年﹐漢和防務評論總編輯平可夫首次透露中國將繼續生產根據生產計劃 ﹐2007年之前將完成105架J11﹑J11A的組裝工作。因此﹐2007年對於中國空軍而言是非常重要 的一年﹐漢和防務評論總編輯平可夫首次透露中國將繼續生產J11B改良型戰鬥機。
J11B改良型戰鬥機。
MiG-23MLDWhat else did you think they were putting in the J-10? Ducted fans?
These are not only to the J-10 in fact they are also for the Su-27SKs and Su-30MKK
See МОСКВА, 30 октября. (АРМС-ТАСС). ФГУП “ММПП “Салют” представит на своем стенде на “Эйршоу Чайна 2006” (AirShow China 2006) двигатель АЛ-31Ф для лицензионного Су-27 СКМ и двигатель АЛ-31ФН (на фотографии) для легкого китайского истребителя J-10. Об этом АРМС-ТАСС сообщили в пресс-службе “Салюта”.
MOSCOW, on 30 October. (ARMS- TASS). FGUP OF “MMPP” Salyut “will be present on its stand during the 2006 “AirShow China showing the engine AL -31F for the license Su-27 SKM and engine AL-31FN for the Chinese light fighter J -10. this was reported on one press realese by Salyut.
Source
http://armsshow.itar-tass.com/?page=article&aid=32014&cid=124
MiG-23MLDThe interview of Sukhoi’s vice president occurred in Nov 2006 in the China airshow. When the CCTV reported WS-10A & J11B footage is yet to be released and only recent in this year of 2007, especially with more J11B images and that CFTE video available recently, people start to accept J11B is powered by WS-10A turbofan engine, I already said J11B is powered by WS-10A backed in 2006 in that WS-10A thread but how many people believed then? People’s view is evolving. Kanwa is a reliable source on Russian arm export related to China. Out of that scope, its information related to the China only stuff like J11B is just its own speculation. As you have seen, you quoted Kanwa’s description on J11B was made in 2006 at Kanwa’s own capacity and not part of the interview,
Miggie, I still remember you said as long as I can show Russian’s source confirmed the kits were finished. You are going to admit it, now I have shown you the Sukhoi vice president’ confirmation SAC has finished all 105 kits by end of 2006. and you also see photo of Kanwa’s editor posted with Sukhoi’s vice president. Now how you going to do? Give your opinion on J11B currently produced in SAC which is produced without signing the contract and not part of the licensed 105 kits .
Man i will be utterly honest to you, from what i have read even given by you or the Russians pages i am confused why? number one i have not fund any Russian document confirming China builds J-11Bs without Russian supplied kits.
The Page you gave me says the J-11B are powered with AL-31s it confuses me more because number one i can not read chinese, i can read russian even without online translators because i speak some Russian, however Chinese is a foreign language to me
From what i have read the J-11B has AL-31s and only chinese build avionics, and one part of the document you supplied says that the before all 105 J-11s are finally assambled they will start the improving of the production line with J-11B so to my understanding if the J-11Bs have AL-31s and are been build before the last 105 are finish means they are modified Russian kits.
To be honest with you i see a possibility you are right and perhaps i am wrong because i need a Russian report but i am not totally convinced of that until i read a Russian document saying China builds J-11Bs from kits build locally in China because in the page you give me they never mention China builds J-11Bs from non Russian kits only China has mastered the Su-27SK manufacture and Russia is now just a mere consultant
MiG-23MLDMan, I think it’s time to be the game over, your performance is just fully demonstrated here
We have seen enough your Russian stuff which ended conflicting with each other, now I will show you the Kanwa’s interview with Sukhoi vice President Mr Alexander N Klementiev during the Zhuhai Airshow 2006. Do you still have dispute with an authorized people like Sukhoi vice president?:rolleyes:
http://www.kanwa.com/mrdt/showpl.php?id=362
This’s google translation of the report of interview on Alexander N Klementiev:
The last batch of fighters J11A finished product this year(2006),
Kanwa report says that the last batch of J11 assembled by Shenyang Aircraft company will to complete this year(2006). J11 aircraft is based on Su27SK fighters with improvements. Shenyang Aircraft Corporation produces Su27SK under permits. According to the aircraft company vice president Alexander Klementiev N by Kanwa in an exclusive interview revealed J11 production plan is very smooth, is a model of successful cooperation. Kanwa disclosed last batch J11A fighter production is 17. sukhoi hopes China will be ordering additional new Su27/J11 fighter parts, “But we still have not signed a new phase of the contract. “China is entirely independent production markers, Sometimes we just give them some technical assistance, “stressed Alexander Klementiev N. According to the production plan, 105 kits will be completed before 2007. .
So i want to ask you why then they say the J-11B has Russian engine becasue they say the J-11B has a Russian AL-31
see this you did not post it eh? new Chinese fighter with Russian engine?
在質量上﹐J11B的改良將是劃時代的﹐除了發動機依然是俄羅斯生產的AL31F之外﹐J11B的其他各個分系統都大幅度實現了國產化﹐而且能夠發射中國產的主動雷達誘導空對空導彈以及其他精確制導武器。
So they continue the production buying AL-31s 😀 or are not talking of an upgrade?
see this they say that in 2007 prior to the end of production of the J-11s they will continue to improve the production
裝根據生產計劃﹐200根據生產計劃﹐2007年之前將完成105架J11﹑J11A的組裝工作。因此﹐2007年對於中國空軍而言是非常重要的一年﹐漢和防務評論總編輯平可夫首次透露中國將繼續生產根據生產計劃﹐2007年之前將完成105架J11﹑J11A的組裝工作。因此﹐2007年對於中國空軍而言是非常重要的一年﹐漢和防務評論總編輯平可夫首次透露中國將繼續生產J11B改良型戰鬥機。
J11B改良型戰鬥機。
with a fighter that has AL-31s?:D 😉
MiG-23MLDThis is from Sukhoi it self
Как известно, сборочное производство Су-27СК по лицензии ведется на авиазаводе в Шеньяне с темпом производства 15 машин в год. Всего предусмотрено изготовить 200 самолетов Су-27СК. На текущий момент по первому этапу контракта КнААПО поставило 105 самолето-комплектов. По второй этапу программы, предусматривающему поставку еще 95 самолето-комплектов, контракт еще не подписан.
As it is known, the assembly-line and production of the licensed Su-27SK is conducted on the aircraft factory in Shenyang with a rate of the production of 15 machines a year. In all it is provided to prepare 200 aircraft Su-27SK. At the current moment in the first stage of contract KnAAPO delivered 105 aircraft- complete sets. In the second stage of program, which foresees the delivery of 95 additional aircraft- complete sets, the contract is not yet signed.
http://www.sukhoi.org/exhibitions/airshowchina2004/
See by 2002 that was the production line reported and as TASS and Jane`s defence weekly said by 2006 they were still assembling aircraft
in fact see this detail the only way china could had built up all the Su-27s by 2006 at a rate of 15 aircraft a year is if China in 1999 started production at a 15 aircraft a year since 105=7 times 15 however China had a set back and it was reported that the first J-11s were not well built and the first three years they built Su-27s at a rate of 6-7 and that justifies that the still will build J-11Bs without breaking the license
see this other source
К числу крупнейших контрактов последних лет можно отнести соглашение от 1996 года на поставки и лицензионное производство (без права реэкспорта) 200 истребителей «Су-27СК» и его учебно-боевого варианта «Су-27УБ» на сумму порядка $ 2,2 млрд (в КНР самолет получил обозначение «J-11»). Их поставки в войска рассчитаны на срок до 2008 года
One of largest contracts of the last years can be attributed to the agreement from 1996 for the deliveries and license production (without the right of reexport) of 200 “Su-27SK” fighters and its combat training version “Su-27UB” for the total sum of order of 2,2 billion (in the CHINESE PEOPLES’ REPUBLIC this aircraft obtained the designation “J -11”). Their deliveries into the air force are calculated for the period up to 2008
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