Videos and pictures have more weight than your misuse of Sukhoi data. Particularly because such pictures and videos are released through government media. Which means its not a secret. Which means the PLA is officially acknowledging such projects. Which means the Chinese government has acknowledged they are doing these projects. The source alone makes it worth reacting to, not matter what.

You are just in plain denial because such planes don’t align with your fantasy LALA world.

Actions always outweigh words, and it seems to me, its so sad you prefer to build your own world out of words and lies.

You honestly want people to believe that Salyut wants to work with Liming which will decrease their chances of Salyut selling engines to China in the future? If Salut wants to be so generous, they should have offered the AL-31F license in the first place. Do you honestly think that Chinese and everyone else won’t see through that CONFLICT OF INTEREST?

You have no idea what CONFLICT OF INTEREST means in the real world, military and business.

Crobato Crobato ha negato

The report of Limin and Salyut working togather is from TASS, i did not make it up, they are working in several programs, you are the one who is in denial, because you are the one who can not believe TASS because obviously it does not go well with your view of the Chinese-russian relations.

They even interview the General director of Limin, Qiang Wei, well they even have his picture:D .

here is the proof

DO RUSSIAN SOURCES KNOW ABOUT THE WS-10 AND THE J-11B?
The answer is yes they do, and they do not deny it, they even claim the builder of the WS-10 engine otherwise known as Tayhan, Limin is in fact working with Salyut the maker of the AL-31F
http://www.arms-tass.su/?page=article&aid=32242&cid=124

Отвечая на вопрос китайского журналиста, как “Салют” планирует расширять сотрудничество с “Лимин”, генеральный директор московского предприятия заявил, что “мы работаем над повышением надежности и тяги, и над абсолютной взаимозаменяемостью этого двигателя. Мы знаем, что начало эксплуатации двигателя обычно связано с определенными трудностями, которые могут продлиться достаточно долго по времени. Поэтому не исключено, что в течение какого-то периода для “Супер-10” будут поставляться двигатели и “Лимин”, и “Салюта”.

they even talked to Qiang Wei who is General director of Limin, also they said Salyut is working with Limin they said in fact that Salyut and Limin are working to improve the reliability and power, and the absolute interchangeability of the engine. We know that in its early developement, the engine WS-10 TAYHAN, will have some difficulties, which may last for a long time. It is possible that during a period the “J-10” will use engines from both Limin, and “Salyut

Looks to me you don’t have any more answers. Why don’t you ask them yourself? You seem to be the Russian link guru here.

How can that be a licensed aircraft when all the other previous licensed aircraft did no such thing? All the previous planes had Russian supplied radar and weapons.

So why don’t you go ahead and tell me what is the license suppose to be?

OBVIOUSLY IT CHANGED RIGHT? There is clearly a before and after event here.

Its either you have one license, followed by a new license. Except that Sukhoi ever mentioned anything about it. All co-national partnerships around the world have been extremely public in all history.

Or you have one license, it expires, and the partner is working on its own based on its own intepretation of that license.

Or you have one license, and now China and Sukhoi has a new secret agreement they both refuse to discuss in public.

Crobato ha speculato

man you should change your name from Crobato to Speculato, just kidding, Crobato be serious, Sukhoi is claiming something reasonable, of course i am open to the possibility there are facts i do not know or even facts that have not been mentioned but you have to acknowledge that the 9 of June 2007 press release does not mention any new deal with China with respect the J-11 deal niether a continuation of the license production of the remaining 90 Su-27Sk, therefore to my understanding such agreement that you mention has not happened at least for what concerns Sukhoi`s 9 of june 2007 production report

Crobato learn some italian ho speculato hai speculato ha speculato abbiamo speculato avete speculato hanno speculato, avevo speculato avevi speculato aveva speculato that is your favarorite verb

BS.

The problem with you and which makes everyone mad is that you abuse data by quoting information that has no relationship with the topic at hand.

Anything 2006 would be considered outdated information.

Of course I do not have to believe their crap. Because words are easy to lie about.

Fact remains there are J-11Bs flying out there. Are they licensed or not? China believes they are being built as per license conditions. is there a 200 plane limit? No. In fact, Shenyang appears planning a carrier variant and now appears to have finished testing of a dual seater prototype.

Evidence overrules.

The press release is not outdated, it was published on 9 June 2007, the only excuse you find is say Sukhoi does not know, Sukhoi very explicitly includes the Chinese and Indian license built ones, read the report, at no moment they say China has opened an unlicense line.

С 1996 года по 2006 год общее количество самолетов Су-27 поставленных заказчикам, учитывая лицензионное производство 380 единиц выполнены межгосударственные контракты в области ВТС С китаем и Индией

basicly they say Sukhoi built 380 aircraft including the export licensed ones, including the license built in China and India achieved throughout intergovernamental agreements;)

http://www.sukhoi.org/news/company/?id=1111

http://www.sukhoi.org/company/information/

http://www.sukhoi.org/files/go_ahk_2006.pdf

The Chinese probably never had better materials than the Russians who were simply the gurus of titanium metallurgy and who were the ones who passed on these formulas. Pakistan J-6s were received starting in 1965 and guess what decade were they retired and how many decades was that? JJ-5s were long supplemented by JJ-6s but JJ-5s (MiG-17 based) which probably never built past the 70s, are still in service in flight academies even today.

The problem of “MiG-23MLD” is the guy never really checks the veracity of his sources. It seems like everything you take from the internet is true or bible, without actually checking them out. This is especially when Russian media is concerned, which tends to be optimistic and has a bad track record when matching the facts. (Typical media drill trying to fill in article space and minimum word requirement without spending the time and effort for fact checking, a very common journalistic flaw).

Do you think that I came to the conclusion that the J-11B was completely indigenous overnight? Check the history of all my postings about the Chinese Su-27s and J-11s from the time of the time I came to this forum in 2002. It is not the same, it has evolved as I uncovered more information. Flogger here actually is even reflecting some of my opinions and speculations I had years ago, including mentioning things like the J-11B may still use AL-31F. I started on this forum never thinking that the Chinese would even conceive of pulling a redesigned Flanker based on their own specs and technologies and this was the farthest of my extrapolations how Flankers in PLAAF service would evolve back before 2003. I even advocated then how pursuing the SM course would be a logical path for the PLAAF then, because of how it logistically complements the MKK/MK2, and the better course for China was to license the MKK and SKM.

But there is one thing that I do that you don’t do, and that is actually research deeply into Chinese material. I don’t read Chinese very good but that does not stop me from using translators or asking someone who can actually read these stuff to translate. Based on so much evidence from Chinese material, while continuing to research on Russian documentation, and general knowledge how aircraft are designed, the apparent becomes obvious. Sukhoi obviously knew about the project—unlike the J-10, the PLAAF never made it secret, it even published it on its own journals. But Sukhoi is OUTSIDE of the project, looking in, which means all the behavior the Russians have exhibited so far, has been that of an observer, not a participant. And frankly Sukhoi has its own roadmap on Flanker evolution trends, and it is in its desire (government owned too) that this road map keeps vital Flanker components as Russian as possible to support its industry, especially the engine, the majority of the airframe, the radar, avionics and weapons used. You take the most Westernized modded of all Flankers, either the MKI or MKM, and it still is using a Russian radar, a Russian engine and still firing Russian missiles.

That simply isn’t true with the J-11B.

Given there is enough detailed knowledge has been released—we know even the BRAKES are indigenous—the plane is thoroughly indigenous in its construction and parts herewith. The only thing it has in common with the Su-27 is in its form and basic structure. But underneath, the plane has much more in common with the J-10 than the MKK.

“MIG-23MLD” pulls out nonsense like comparing it with the Japanese F-2 project. The problem is, the F-2 project is from the **USA**, which blows all that logic altogether. There is no evidence that the Russians had a similar partnership with anyone that allows a modification of such an extent to the F-2. Nor it has been shown that the Russians have any INTEREST at all to have similar projects with anyone, simply because it is not in their SELF INTEREST. The F-2 had a Japanese radar and Japanese missiles, two of the areas which the Russians would never relinquish on. Worst yet, the typical Russian distrust to China means it is not in their interest to have China flying with Flankers much superior to their own (the F-2 was supposedly by intent, at least in paper, to be greatly superior to a standard F-16).

China may have approached Sukhoi once to have similar F-15J or F-2 style projects on their own. There was no doubt early in the MKK history, that they had an interest similar to Mitsubishi’s arrangement with the US, to have the APG-63 licensed and modified, then adapted to allow integration with Japanese wepons. For whatever reasons, political or technical it may be, this obviously never happened. Failing the F-15J style approach, so the next would be the F-2 style, but I guess that never happened either otherwise Sukhoi may have mouthed such a partnership in public, or it would not escape the snooping tabloid mentality Russian media. You simply cannot hide a partnership of this size.

But simply, based on current information, no such partnership ever existed. You can see the basic inherent problems of such a partnership, stemming from the Russians or the Chinese not willing to share certain techs with each other due to their mutual xenophobic paranoias; the Russian desire to keep the Flanker roadmap within their control and markets (logical); the Russian desire not to keep Chinese Flankers from being too superior to their own (understandable); and the Russian desire to keep the Chinese buying Russian munitions and missiles (thousands of R-77s is big bucks for example).

So the next step is to simply go completely indigenous and alone in this venture. The Russians knew about it because it was they who mouthed that it would take the Chinese at least 10 to 11 years to complete the development and integration. Quite a window to continue selling all the other stuff. Except that it only took the Chinese only five years (from 2001) to finish this, thanks to technologies developed for the J-10 and the rabid pace of how things are being done in China.

Crobato

The question is not the Russian media, first it is Sukhoi, Rosoboronexport or ROSPROM which are not media but official organizations, in fact ROSPROM, ROSOBOREXPORT and Sukhoi do not claim China has built more than 105 kits, TASS or INTERFAX usually take their reports from Sukhoi, ROSPROM or Rosoboronexport

These are Russian government agencies or the Sukhoi company it self and at no moment Sukhoi says on 9 June 2007 that China has built unlicense Flankers or even excluding the Chinese production line. to the contrary they are saying all the Flankers delivered have been delivered by Sukhoi and those include license built, export or for the Russian air force, Sukhoi even says from 1996 to 2006 the Flanker family production has exceeded the 380 aircraft delivered and they included in that the ones built for the Russian air force, the license built in China and India and the exported directly by Sukhoi.

😉

In fact Boris Aleshin is the director of ROSPROM.

Sourcehttp://www.rosprom.gov.ru/docs.php?id=11

[QUOTE=tphuang;1129464]

You last comment is the foolish one,Sukhoi can not do anything, that is the most foolish one because number one the J-11 is not Chinese, not even with a WS-10 or Chinese built radar, it is a Su-27, the aircraft is Russian, it is Russian property as a design, this is when i can see you can not understand logic, China signed an agreement, that is a reality only built 105 because they did not want to pay for the rest 90 Su-27s, saying because the chinese build the airframe (when there is no proof they built the entire airframe by them selves) means they can built SU-27s, this means the Chinese are stealing, a license break, and believe me Russia has more than one way of pressing China, Russia simply can stop other projects, reducing Chinese and Russian economic links in fact Russia has more nuclear weapons so china can not bully them and enough chemical and biological weapons that China won`t be able to beat Russia, however these nations won`t go to war but simply they will break economic ties and that will be more serious than you think because the Russians still are wealthier than Chinese and many Chinese want to go to Russia and immigrate and the Chinese companies only have Russia and Israel as source of technology transfers for advacned weapons, however in reality Russai will be affected too so both nations have nothing to win by breaking economic relations or waging war against each other.
[/qoute]
wow, now, you are getting really desperate. I never mentionned anywhere that J-11B was a Chinese design, did I? But the upcoming J-11BS with more changes will be though. As for this stopping other projects, go ahead. It seems China is the one that is stopping military purchase talks with Russians right now. You got the IL-76 deal on us, what else do you have? Russia is not stupid enough to go nuclear against China over J-11B, so stop blabbering. As for this breaking economic relations hurting China, how? Russia is China’s 8th largest trading partner. While China is Russia’s 4th. You have a trading surplus on us. You think we are worried about you breaking economic relationship? The only ones that China fear are EU and USA.

you guys are already breaking on the IL-76 agreement. What more leverage do you have? If you don’t want to sell su-33, don’t sell it. It’s just a matter of time before China develops a naval variant of flanker or J-10. And since their carriers are not going to be ready for a while, it’s not that big of a problem. What, sukhoi is not going to sell us su-34, 35? We don’t want it anyway.

Again, you still have yet to answer my one question.

And you still have not fully explained your view point on how you think the situation is.

Read well what i said before you start replying with nationalistic lenses, Russia is a nuclear power and has one of the largest stockpiles of nukes, however you do not know how many agreements China still has with Russia, contrary to your opinions the real chinese Government is not talking like you, the fact that Liming and Saluyt are working togather and Sukhoi still offers Su-33s shows the chinese and russian relations are cordial and in good state, the Russian sources sooner or later will report if unlicense J-11Bs are comming out of the assembly lines however none have been reported to my knowledge.
In fact Sukhoi Claims they have delivered more than 380 Flankers in the last 10 years including export, license built ones and those for the Russian air force.

МОСКВА, 9 июня. 2007(Корр.АРМС-ТАСС). Авиационная холдинговая компания “Сухой” лидирует в экспортных поставках авиационной техники среди российских предприятий. В период с 1996 года по 2006 год доля “Сухого” в российском экспорте вооружений и военной техники составила около 18 проц. За этот период общее количество самолетов семейства Су-27 для военно-воздушных сил России и поставляемых на экспорт, учитывая лицензионное производство, превысило 380 единиц. За период с 2001 по 2006 годы объем экспортных поставок истребителей марки “Су” увеличился втрое по сравнению с 1996-2000 годами, с 88 до 272 самолетов. Об этом корр.АРМС-ТАСС сегодня сообщили в компании “Сухой”, комментируя основные положения утвержденного годового отчета компании за

Moscow, on June 9 2007. ([Korr].[ARMS]- TASS). Aviation holding company “Sukhoi” leads in the export deliveries of aviation equipment among the Russian enterprises. In the period since 1996 until 2006 the portion that Sukhoi has in the Russian export of armaments and military equipment was about 18%. Within this period the total quantity of aircraft of family Su-27 for the Air Force of Russia and supplied for the export, taking into account license production, exceeded 380 units. Within the period from 2001 through 2006 the volume of the export deliveries of the “Su-27 Family” increased triply in comparison with 1996-2000, from 88 to 272 aircraft. On this of [korr].[ARMS]- TASS today they reported in the company “Sukhoi”, commenting on the basic condition of the affirmed annual report to company after

They never say China has built unlicense ones

Source http://arms-tass.su/?page=article&aid=40997&cid=25

You have to rephrase properly what KANWA is saying because J-11 and J-11B are too different things. Its not likely J-11B is using AL-31F. And KANWA is often republishing old reports later as free reports, so you need to validate the original date of the non free version of the report.

This is incorrect. China has refused to sell the J-10 to NK (more likely NK asked them for free). NK is said to have gotten some J-7s instead.

Nigeria has already bought some J-7s.

No. Sukhoi appears to be keeping many things about their business with the PLAAF even up to now. For example, the true extent of the localized modifications on the Chinese Su-27s, and the true wording of the contract.

It is impossible for the Su-27 kit to use WS-10A. It is impossible for the Su-27 kit to be turned into an airframe that is 700kg lighter and has 10,000 flight hour life from 2000 hours. It is impossible for the warranty and support conditions for the kits to allow for any modification beyond its intended design and use. F-2 analogy fails here because LM actually shipped parts to Japan that is specifically made for the F-2 and these are not GENERIC F-16 parts. You cannot turn generic Su-27 into the J-11B as spec’ed.

China is only receiving AL-31Fs made from a previous order circa 2005. This is already 2007. It has not made any new orders since. Recieving and buying are two different things.

The Kanwa article says the J-11B uses Al-31s but has new avionics weapons and radar.

Man it is not impossible to turn an aircraft like you are saying, the MiG-29SMT shows quit easily you can turn an aircraft into another, the MiG-23MLD also has different aerodynamics and structure than a MiG-23ML and the Russians modified several hundreds, the first Su-27IB was a converted Su-27UB and the first Su-27UB was a converted Su-27B single seat, with modern materials and lighter avionics you can reduce weight.

In fact the P-42 had a more dramatically reduction of weight in the order of 2 tonns even without using composites just by basic airframe modifications and deletion of many avionics and radar, in 2007 the reduction and replacement of materials can reduce weight, however modern aircraft usually weight more because the quest for range, payload and fuel makes them heavier, besides this always lead to more powerful engines, the WS-10 is not more powerful than modern Russian engines

In fact for example the AL-31 weights 1530kg and the R-29 used by the MiG-27 weights 1782kg. so a MiG-27 has a reduction of 250 kgs when it is powered by a AL-31, the J-11B will have a difference of 500kgs if it powered by other engine, you can get a differece in radars the same for example the Zhuk family has a difference of almost 120kgs from Zhuks fitted to Mig-29s, MiG-23, J-8II or Su-27, this proves you it is not as hard to reduce weight just by changing engines and you will have more if you use composites

again, you refused to answer the most basic question that I’ve been asking you.

Face it, you have no good answer for it.

As for this I only quote kanwa when it suits me, I only quote kanwa when it’s not their own opinion.

As for this part about J-11B using AL-31F, I’ve stated over and over again. If it’s using AL-31F, then it’s some interim class, not J-11B. As for what Kanwa stated, kanwa did not just knows some AL-31F got exported there, but it has no idea what it’s for. So, it assumes it’s used for J-11B. btw, even in the recent edition of kanwa, PKF has stopped proclaiming that.

You are quoting Kanwa when it is convinient to you, you like KANWA only if it fits your speculation and you call it. it is true when it fits well your speculation,

See If KANWA SAYS AL-31 fits the J-11B you are saying is not good, like SKYISTHELIMIT the same he aduces KANWA considers a mystery the J-11B therefore he concludes they are saying J-11B is fitted with WS-10 uhmm…. nice double thought

If you see TASS has this article 14.05.2007 13:18
Информация по новому китайскому истребителю завоевания превосходства в воздухе J-11B
ЛЕНТА “АВИАЦИЯ, КОСМОС, ВООРУЖЕНИЯ” what basicly means information about the newest Chinese built air superiority fighter J-11B

http://www.arms-tass.su/?page=archive&order=&from_date=20070514&till_date=20070514&categID=&step=1&part=4

I can trust this article because this is a russian side but usually you just take one side and you quote from it what fits you well, if this Russian article affirms the J-11B is a non russian kit and will enter production i will admitt it as almost official since Sukhoi also has to addmit it in a press release too, you quote what you like about the KANWA article what you do not like about it you do not want to quote it for example if they say it is fitted with an AL-31 because obviuosly it can mean it is an upgrade like the MiG-23MLD, F-14B or Dennel Cheetah and specially because in that way China would not build any unlicense Su-27 but you do not like to quote that part.

you now even change you main statement saying the J-11B is an interim type until the later J-11B with WS-10, cool so now you are betting two ways

Китай намерен использовать многоцелевые БРЛС управления огнем типа 1474 и ТРДД WS10A собственного производства вместо российских систем. Однако, как полагают эксперты, организация такого производства потребует еще много времени

this means China is intended to use multipurpose fire control radar system, the type 1474 and the TURBOFAN ENGINE WS10A of chinese domestic production instead of the Russian systems. However, as experts assume, the organization of this production will require still much time

http://www.arms-tass.su/?page=article&cid=+25&aid=24029&part=11

…And this is still a nonstory unless anyone has proof that either side is unhappy with the current arrangement.

There is an article by TASS about the J-11B, in it they clarify any real point however in order to log in and get the information you have to pay, i can wait a few months to know the true, if indeed china is building more than 105 J-11s but if they do not we will know sooner or later but the Russian reports i have read non say China is building them.