I don’t see Japan or S. Korea equipping F-35s and F-22s till the mid 2010s, and even with that, there is no reason why you should not do intermediary upgrades. Even then F-22 exportability remains doubtful with USAF objecting. Which is why Japan is seriously looking at the Typhoon among other options. S. Korea is buying more F-15s for example, and Singapore is also buying F-15s. Taiwan is looking to buy more F-16s. India will keep producing Su-30MKIs till 2014 and keep them in service long afterwards. Australia is buying more Super Hornets and so is Malaysia. Even in the US, the appearance of F-22 and F-35 does not mean the hundreds of F-15s, F-18s, and F-16s will disappear overnight. In fact, the still more hundreds of F-15s, F-18s and F-16s around the US and around the world will still be there, and F-15s will remain operational until 2025.

Because someone has 5 gen fighter is no argument against upgrading 4th generation ones. You still need to upgrade your 3rd and 4th gen fighters to deal with their respective equivalents. Against a fifth gen fighter, you need to develop one of your own.

The J-11B is already here, and it appears to be in small series production since early this year, with planes going into training and evaluation regiments. Better yet, the plane can serve as a template to upgrade existing planes, as the old Su-27SK avionics simply does not cut it anymore in terms of survivability. What’s really more important than having a new radar, cockpit and engine, is the defensive measures suite, the integrated ECM/RWR/MAWS/Chaff first introduced on the J-10s and now with the JF-17 too.

J-11B isn’t for sale, and Sukhoi is not threatened with it in international markets. They only don’t feel good because they cannot sell more Su-30MK2, Su-27SKM and Su-35 to China.

The Russians set a number of airframes to be build, these are cover under their agreement and payments, it is true China can upgraded them but they are not top notch, the Japanese for example are going to equip their aircraft with newer missiles, that is enough to get parity but parity in technology can be broken with disparity in training and numbers, logically these nations simply can ask the US to station a few F-22s, upgrade their aircraft and send a few F-18E to limit the Chinese air power projection.

The J-11, J-10 and JF-17 are deterrent and a step of modernization by the PLAAF but in reality only gives them parity if the surrounding nations do not buy new equipment something that is unlikely.

Lol the motivation behind the J-11B and the MKI is so different. The MKI is a true partnership, a definite sharing of ideas between two countries. The J-11B on the other hand, is a cynical attempt to completely engineer the Russians out of the aircraft, so China could completely build the J-11B even if a new Sino-Russo split will occur. The MKI is done with Sukhoi’s blesssing and cooperation. The J-11B is not. Sukhoi offered the Su-27SM to China. China did not accept. The J-11B has no connection to any of Sukhoi’s templates for its future vision of the Flanker. It represents a true split in direction.

The J-11B is born from the 1960s experience of the J-7, when the Soviet Union and China split, cutting the technology umbelical cord, forcing the Chinese to realize the need for self sufficiency in technology. Just about every major component in the J-11B is either Chinese designed, or coped from the Russian design so it can be manufactured indigenously. The J-11B is filed with technologies previously developed for the J-10, including radar, engine, FBW system, avionics, and airframe construction.

Sukhoi and Russia do not consider that, both projects are economic deals, China as well as India have to stick to a contract, niether the Chinese or Indians will risk getting into troubles due to breaking an aircraft license.

For the Russians if China later changes the engines to the already sold Su-27s does not matter, by the time the Chinese indigenize the Su-27 already it will be obsolete either in the international market or in the domestic one since potential enemies will be armed with F-35s and F-22s, now already in 2007 the J-11 is an easy pray of the F-22 stationed in kadena, as time passes the Indians have been quit smart respecting the licenses as they have done. this has given them the russians` trust in fact see the Indians can participate in the fifth generation PAK FA.

Is it good for China the Indian-Russian alliance? the reality it is not because what the Russians have done is out maneuver the Chinese attemps of screwing Sukhoi, the international market is over saturated, once the JSF is sold in Australia, Turkey, Israel, Japan? and many other countries the J-11 will be obsolete. yes it is possible China sells the Su-27, however, Russia offer deals with some degree of economic advantages for the buyers and the Su-27 already is becoming obsolete specially in the J-11 form, the only variant that might continue as a relatively sold version will be the Su-35BM by the year 2012 the J-11 will be obsolete, earlier versions such as the Su-27 or Su-30 are as good as the MiG-23MLD was in 1984, a possible buy of an aircraft that won`t assure air superiority when you enemy has F-15Cs and F-14Ds.

What is the porpouse of buying 100 Su-27/J-11 if a potential rival or enemy with 10 F-22 can shot down 100 J-11s without loosing any F-22?

The F-35 can have similar kill ratios versus the J-11s and many nations will be buying PAK FAs and and F-35s.

So in few words technologically speaking the J-11 does not represent a threat, as a commercial deal well Sukhoi might be cheated with non licensed J-11 sold to third parties or not paid but politically China might pay a price and this will incircled it more with an Indian-Japanese-Russian and American block.

China has counter balanced this with Pakistan and the JF-17, but definitively the Russian Indian axis and the Japanese-American axis are far more capable militarily and Europe is unlikely to side with China.

In addition to the F100 engine, the F-15A and F-16A shared the air data computer and generator drive.

The F-16C like the F-14A was never afforded a real opportunity for aerial combat in PGW#1. The two MiG-21’s shot down by F/A-18C’s were being chased by F-14A’s, when they ran head-on into the F/A-18’s. The USAF (AWACS) worked real hard to insure the F-15’s got first chance at any opportunity for aerial combat. I have read of other top cover pilots (Italian Tornados, French Mirages, etc.) who complained about how AWACS directed F-15’s to targets of which they were in a better position to intercept.

No, the USAF never wanted to commit the F-117 to an air to air role.

In the book “Red Storm Rising” Clancy wrote about an aircraft that was virtually invisible to radar designated F-19 Frisbee, built by Lockeed. We now know the GRU & KGB had supplied the Soviet AF commanders the specs for the F-117 but, they didn’t believe the information! Clancy evidently knew about the F-117, so the only folks who didn’t know were the folks who paid for the F-117….. the taxpayers.

So what? Many air bases have ANG F-16’s for their alert duty. The first aircraft scramble was F-15’s from the AFB near Boston. Having no precise data on where to go, the F-15 pilots headed out over the Atlantic Ocean!

Actually, it was the F-15’s that performed the mission of ‘top cover’ for the F-16’s who were to cover the lower altitudes.
The F-15’s having better look-down radars performed better in this role while the F-16’s radars looking more ‘in plane’ operated best in this manor. The F-15’s attacked first and broke up mass atacks into smaller groups for which the F-16’s attacked. It was the F-15’s which had to concern themselves the most about not going to deep into Syrian airspace.
Even with two layers of aerial protection, Syrian Air Force (SyAAF) SA.342 Gazelle helicopters and Su-22’s did a fair amount of damage to the Israeli ground forces in the Bekaa Valley with low level attacks flying nap of the earth penetrations, without being challenged.
URL;
Syrian Tank-Hunters in Lebanon, 1982 By Tom Cooper & Yaser al-Abed
Sep 26, 2003
http://www.acig.org/artman/publish/article_279.shtml

Adrian

According to http://www.airwar.ru
the F-16s attacked first the MiG-23s formations and the F-15 were farther back into the israeli defences to intercept any fleeing MiG-23 from the F-16s.

In fact the vast majority of MiG-23 kills were achieved by F-16s, a few were achieved F-15s

:rolleyes: If you give an AK-47 to a monkey and one to Rambo, will the kill ratio be 1:1?
(note: exaggerated example, no reference to F-16/F-15 🙂 )

The 1982 ratio doesnt say anything. The result would be more or less the same with F-15 only or F-16 only.
If we take GW1, the F-16 must be crap because the ratio was 35 or so to nil. :rolleyes:

In GWI the USAF did not employ the F-16 as the Israeli air force did in 1982, in fact the F-16 were used basicly as fighter bombers.

In 1982 the F-16 were vectored to intercept the Syrian aircraft at short range and the F-15s as killers of any syrian fighter that would had slipped through the F-16 barrier

In GWI the only fighter that was employed as a true air superiority fighter was the F-15, both aircraft suffered losses and according to western claims 2 F-15s were shot down and 5 F-16s suffered the same fate

Can I just point out that there is no such thing as a ‘Su-27B’ !!! :confused:

It is either a Su-27 ‘Flanker B’ in NATO parlance, or just a Su-27 in Russia.

The two-seat combat-capable trainer is Su-27UB – or Su-27UB ‘Flanker C’ in NATO terms.

One other point – all Flankers were originally T10 – the Sukhoi in-house designation (the fifth triangular winged design – ‘cos it went up in two’s).

The Russian AF then gave it the Su-27 designation when it entered service – with a suffix denoting the role – UB for Trainer, IB for fighter bomber, K for Shipborne Naval Fighter etc.

It was Sukhoi’s PR department who came up with ‘Su-33’ (Su-27K), ‘Su-34’ (Su-27IB), ‘Su-35’ (Su-27M) etc etc.

The AF & AVMF then ‘caved in’ and officially adopted Sukhoi’s designation of Su-33, Su-34.

As for the rest – the Su-30MK is purely an export designation from Sukhoi – with a suffix number denoting the country that is buying it – MKK (China), MKI (India), MKM (Malaysia), MKV (Venezuela), MKA (Algeria) etc.

That is no different to the F-15K, F-15I, F-15S, F-15J etc.

It’s all quite simple really 😀

You can go back to you name calling now, I’m outa here….

Ken

Of course i know the T-10S is in real Sukhoi parlance the famous Su-27 Flanker B, the rest of aircraft are T-10IB, T-10UB, T-10M, T-10K, T-10KUB and so on.

However the question was that the T-10IB aka Su-34 is not a lightly modified T-10S, to the contrary, the designation has been even adopted in Russia, the T-10IB is already known as Su-34 it i entirely a new aircraft having little in common with the T-10S except the taiplanes, wing and engine nacelles, the rest of the aircraft is different.

However if you compare it to the T-10 the T-10IB is a totally diferent aircraft.

With all the weapons hanging under the wings?

And could someone with greater knowledge compare the acceleration/cruise/top speed.This also is very important for survival.

The main source of radar signature are the engine blades, in that aspect the F-18E has a stealthier design than the F-15, the F-15`s radar can distinguish the specific aircraft signature thanks to the radar reflections produced mainly by the engine blades.

The Flanker should have a much higher limitation—if any. To do Kulbit or Cobra, you practically should not have any limitation at all. A little plane like the JF-17 is set at 40 deg. I’ve heard about Hornets going well over 50 deg.

How is that? The F-16s have to end up using a larger variety of wares than the F-15. For example use of Harpoons. Only F-15 that does that is the Korean ones. Many export F-16s were Harpoon capable since the mid nineties.

The A-10 does not have much of a radar, does not mean it is extensively wired for optical equipment. Anything designed for A/G roles need TV channels, which not only do you use the Maverick with, but also images from FLIR and so on. The F-15 A to D does not have any TV capability with its MFDs till the Strike Eagle.

The Su-27 does have AoA limits when it flies at high AoA from 35 deg to 60 deg AoA it does experience assymetric yaw and roll moments, this begins to become quit intensive from 45 deg of AoA, when the Flankers or Fulcrums go beyond that they can not do it for more than few seconds or they simply will suffer stalls, spins or flat spins.

To return the thread to its original topic, I’m not sure whether ‘a classic’ has ever been defined but my own suspicion is that the F-117 will scrape in, if only out of quirkiness.

The F-117 already is a classic, it is the first stealth aircraft ever built, already is in the History books.