Unsubstantiated claim based on opinionated prejudice only makes you a fool.
No wonder everyone tries to ignore you…
What he is saying is not a lie, political systems do affect the quality of the products made by a nation, the former USSR had in many areas lower quality products than their Western counter parts, very developed capitalists countries do exihibit a very high quality standards, products from Japan, France, the US have excellent manufacturing in fact the Russian economy suffered in great part due to the legacy of bad quality of obsolete and aging industries legacy of their soviet past where political dictates ruled the economy and corruption and ineptitude ill affected the real needs quality standards demanded.
Very early MiGs and in general Russian aircraft were simplier and more crude than their western counter parts, they were shabby and of lower quality control, corruption and ineptitude kept many Russian products below Western quality standards and that you can see it in many consumer goods built in the former USSR
I don’t need to justify for anything. I’m not in a defensive position! No one here ever doubted that the TVC equiped Fulcrum would be more agile in a certain regime. No one has said that the new MiGs won’t perform better than the MiG-29, but despite better agility due to TVC etc. the question is how much better does the MiG-35 perform against the MiG-29 in various areas and is it enough to be on par with the Eurofighter.
Here’re some of the known specs for the MiG-29/MiG-35:
top speed: M 2.3/~M2.1 or less (based on the speed for the heavier 9.41
Ceiling: 17000 m/17500 m
G-load: 9 g >M 0.9/9 g >M0.85
AoA: 26° (operational); 30° max/35° max (Excluding TVC)It’s up to YOU and not me to prove that the MiG-35s performance significantly better in all areas to the MiG-29. The Eurofighter’s superior performance to the MiG-29 is confirmed. The problem with the MiG-35 is that its basic design is still similar to that of the MiG-29 and there’re good reasons to doubt that the MiG-35s climb performance, acceleration and supersonic performance is much better than that of the MiG-29. And without TVC its questionable whether the new MiGs are on par with the Eurofighter in terms of subsonic agility. And its super sonic manoeuvreability is unlikely to be noticably better than that of the MiG-29.
Man why you try to justify a speculation of your part? first there are no reasons to believe the MiG-29 is inferior to the Eurofighter for one simple reason, The MiG-29 is promoted by the Russians as on par if not better than the Eurofighter since the late 1990s because they usually consider the competion very seriously when they sell their aircraft, they said the indeed studied the Eurofighter design and they did not find any thing outstanding, in fact they declared the Eurofighter was more an aircraft that politicians chose more for the sake of the European defence industries rather than for its technical capabilities
The Gripen to cite a simple example is not much better than the MiG-29, this thing of weight does not consider one simple fact, MiG also gives the thrust to weight ratio at Combat and the MiG-29 has more than the unity, they calculate a thrust to weight ratio at the maximus of operational radius
In fact according to Yefim Gordon in one of his books about the MiG-29 he declares the MiG-29S has better acceleration from 600km/h to 1000km/h than the Eurofighter , he says the MiG-29S has better rate of climb and better sustained turn rate than the Eurofighter and this is not the MiG-35 but the old MiG-29S.
The whole point of the matter is the delta canard configuration is not better than the LERXed thrust vectoring one and the LERXed tailplanes one is not inferior too either.
Canards do not exhibit a better agility in fact the Cobra is the simpliest proof of that perfect controlability at 120 deg AoA, the newer Su-35BM and MiG-29OVT are definitively better than the Eurofighter. and if Russia equip them with long range missiles and Python V equivalent the Eurofighters from Europe won`t show any superiority in fact they will be equal is some terms and inferior in others.
Were did I said anything like that? I never said the F-22 is in the same class as the F-22. I simply say that Typhoon’s aerodynamics are better than that of the MiG-29 and that its flight performance is therefore superior in combination with its FSC and engines. This was confirmed numerous times by various pilots. If you are unwilled to accept this its your problem no my.
You still don’t understand the 4th generation classification for the Eurofighter in Europe! ALL new european fighters are seen as 4th generation in Europe, types like F-16 and MiG-29 are 3rd generation in the european definition of fighter generations. In the US and Russian the same types (F-16/MiG-29) are classed as 4th generation therefore new types are seen as 5th generation. You guys mix this up. In fact generations don’t really matter.
An aircraft is the sum of its parts. The MiG-35 despite it does not even exist in form of a production aircraft is to new to judge about, especially its overall avionics and MMI. I haven’t compared the overall capabilities of both types a single time here. I only spoke about aerodynamics and flight performance as THAT is the TOPIC.Are you leading a monologue?
TVC provides better agility yes, I have never said something different. But if you want to compare the basic aerodynamical performance TVC should be excluded.
Show me were I said that the difference of the TWR for Typhoon’s and MiG-35 is HIGH! I only said it is better. Interestingly no one of you could provide any empty weight data for the MiG-35.Prove it with exact empty weight data for the MiG-35! You aren’t able to do so as they are not available! I don’t say the TWR difference is significant, but it is still better.
No need to remind me on anything here. I’m well aware about all the data.
Well buddy seems now that you need to justify the fact the MiG-29OVT is better in agility and is very similar in average performance characteristics to your Eurofighter
Twisting data again to get the desired result?!
Well buddy that data comes from Mig corporation and the Eurofighter webpage recomended by EADS :rolleyes: twisting what?:confused: probably you can not accept the Eurofighter is not as light as you thought
That’s nonsense tranche 3 standard aircraft are not even defined. And before you suggest that more composites will find their way into the MiG-35 take into account that the Eurofighter is only made to 15 % of metal. The MiG-35 in its planned form has only 15 % composites. I highly doubt that any Fulcrum derivate will have composites anywhere close to the degree as the Typhoon.
I didn’t speak about extra thrust but about normal thrust rating without reduction due to service life reasons. That infos come from persons from the GAF.
The manufacturer has brought up some data about speed, range and ceiling etc.. Exact turning rates etc. are not really available. It is known that the MiG-29 achieves 9g >mach 0.9. The limit with lowered to mach 0.85 for the MiG-29M. Some 1990s data about the MiG-29M suggest its max. AoA (without deactivation of limiters) has been increased to 35°. Though that’s probably the upper limit and may not even be the operational. Interestingly you question the data I might have about newer MiGs, while you are for sure unable to provide anything here about the Typhoon.
Based on the few data available, some general understanding of the topic and the fact that no one here was able to proof that the MiG-29M offers significantly better performance than the MiG-29 baseline modell.
1.) RD-33MK have 9000 kg of thrust not 9300 kg
2.) MiG-35 has larger wings and its top speed is given with mach 2
3.) The acceleration values are HIGHLY unrealistic
Maybe I’m able to find some charts for the MiG-29 in that direction.
I’m not twisting his statement, I was only explaining some basics.
Any figures to proof that HOTAS has nothing to do with flight performance? LOL you really make me laugh. Maybe you inform your self about what HOTAS actually means!
These data aren’t my assumptions they were given by sources. In fact I don’t really believe that the SMTs weight is exactly the same as that of the MiG-29, but it is given with that value. Ask the manufacturer not me. The MiG-29Ms V01420 aluminium-lithium alloys didn’t achieve the desired weight reduction and the MiG-29M is a bit more compact with more stuff in it and that adds simply some weight.
No further comment on that nonsense.
That was nothing I have asked. Be more careful what you quote from whome.
Speed and acceleration are not related to thrust to weight ratio if the aerodynamics are not good, the MiG-25, F-111 arer faster than the Eurofighter and have thrust to weight ratios inferior to it
The MiG-29OVT has effectively an engine of 9000kg of thrust
Its afterburner thrust is increased to 9000 kgs comparing to 8300 kgs on RD-33. RD-33MK has total service life 4000 hours, comparing to 2000 hours of RD-33. in 2005 Moscow-based Chernyshev plant will start series production of RD-33MK engines. MiG-29K
http://www.migavia.ru/eng/news/?id=18&tid=4
However the thrust vectoring will give it better agility than that of the Eurofighter Typhoon, the difference in thrust to weight ratio is not as high as you coment in the MiG-35 versus the Typhoon
Performance data:
Crew requirements MiG-29M/MiG-29M2 1/2
Takeoff weight MiG-29M/MiG-29M2, kg
– normal 17 500/17 800
– maximum 22 400/22 700
Maximum operational g-load 9
Maximum airspeed MiG-29M/MiG-29M2, km/h
– at altitude 2 400/2 400
– at S/L 1 500/1 400
Service ceiling, m 17 500/17 500
Operational range MiG-29M/MiG-29M2, km
– on internal fuel 2 000/1 800
– with three fuel drop tanks 3 200/3 000
– with three fuel drop tanks and in-flight refueling 6 000
Engine type RD-33 ser.3М
Maximum weapon load MiG-29M/MiG-29M2, kg 4 500/4 500
This data is for multirole aircraft
http://www.migavia.ru/eng/production/?tid=1&id=5
Compare this to the typhoon
Basic Mass (Empty) 11,000kg (24,250lb)
Maximum (Take-off) 23,500kg (51,809lb
source http://www.eurofighter.com/et_ap_pd_ma.asp
The Typhoon is not light it has a weight as high as the MiG-35 and similar thrust to weight ratio
Let me remind you this information is supported by the EADS webpage check by your self
Crappy bla bla. That was said by numerous pilots when the Eurofighter was already aproved and/or in service. There is no need for them to say so to make sure the aircraft is purchased and single pilots have no influence in such decisions! Their job is to fly the aircraft.
Sorry but I give a sh!t about what russian sources say. The Eurofighter was of course some kind of political choice, but that doesn’t say anything about its capabilities.
Complete BS. Typhoon’s acceleration is currently second only to that of the F-22. Pilots claim that the aircraft’s acceleration in dry thrust is already compareable to that of the MiG-29 in reheat. In terms of high AoA and low speed handling show me a single non TVC equiped MiG-29 which flies the HAV rolls as the Typhoon does! Its not a fact that the MiG-35 outturns the Eurofighter it’s only your humble opinion, not more not less. BTW supercruise is not simply a matter of engine thrust alone.
Yes and strip down the F-117 from stealth and it could be easily shot down by everyone:rolleyes:. What’s that kind of argument? Pure stupidy?
man you are so funny to validate your points and only say, crappy bla bla yeah yeah, pure stupidity and i care nothing about what the Russians care, well buddy i will tell you something you can not say; in 2007 you can not say the MiG-29 is obsolete because they still sell them and once the Russians deploy their PAK FA they will make obsolete the Eurofighter, in fact there is something you can not argue is the MiG-1.44 was even more advanced than the Eurofighter and in India the Eurofighter is not even in the competition
The MiG-35 and other MiG-29s are more pupular and are sold in greater numbers, in fact see the MiG-35 has beaten the F-16 and Eurofighter in India and has proven in agility it does not yield to the Eurofighter that shows the aerodynamics and engines in the MiG-29 are better than even those on the the Su-30MKI
I have never seen something done by the Eurofighter and it is the Pugachev`s cobra, the Cobra turn, the boomerang, the kulbit and the double kulbit, yeah your super Typhoon is not even better than the MiG-35 and you need to bring the old MiG-29 to compare it
4500 kg to be correct for the old MiG-29M. I didn’t say the same, but the difference is probably not that high. The old MiG-29M offered more changes in contrast to the MiG-29, than the new MiG-29M/K does in comparison to the old MiG-29M/K.
I have additional manufacturer prochures. Interestingly RAC MiG claims old payloads and engines though the data are basically given for the new MiG-29K/KUB.
Here for example:
http://www.migavia.ru/eng/production/?tid=1&id=4TVC is an option which could be adopted for other new Fulcrums as well.
Ehhm 30 % higher climb rate and acceleration is the same?
The first Gripens weren’t that advanced at all, newer C/D modells are much more advanced. Gripen lacks such a comprehensive EWS, IRST/FLIR and I’m not sure about sensor fusion. Though the PS05A uses some similar technologies as the Captor the radar is inferior in terms of performance according to the available data. But the topic isn’t Gripen VS Eurofighter.
Believe what you want. I see no reason why the pilots should lie. They have flown both types, they evaluated them against each other and the results were clear. Many people in the Luftwaffe were very sceptical about the Eurofighter, but changed their mind after they learned more about the type.
What has less computers to do with canards being used?
Eurofighter took long, yes but most other new fighters including F-22, Rafale, Gripen or Su-34 took similar. According your logic all these types must be obsolete now. And what about the MiG-35 or Su-35 these aircraft are based on 1970s designs and to so long before they have become what they are. Does it mean they are obsolete too? ACCORDING YOUR LOGIC YES.
Man you think the Eurofighter is a super great if it was a super fighter well it would be in the F-22 class but it is not, the MiG-29 and the Eurofighter are still called 4 generation aircraft, the MiG-35 is a 4.5 generation aircraft
The fact is give the numbers for the Eurofighter and MiG-35 and you will see nothing separates them beyond the Meteor and ASRAAM
Because it’s hardly relevant. I’m sure the 747 has a lower accident rate than the Mig-29, does that make it the perfect fighter?
what a foolish comparasion, the Mig-29 has better performance and agility, better acceleration, better rate of climb, better turn rates and in the 1980s on a one on one basis a better kill rate.
Fit some Python 5 to your average MiG-29 and you will see the MiG-29 rules
Sorry – have you not been reading my posts at all?
[once again – as posted here]
“Alot of people in here are disregarding canards on the basis of TVC – whereas a canard equipped aircaft will still have a better sustained turn performance than an elevator equipped one (all other things being equal).“
A canard generates lift in a pitch up moment, whereas an elevator generates downforce in the same manouvre.
Most manouvres are positive g. Ergo, for 2 well designed aircraft, the canard equipped one will bleed less energy.
This is not dependant on TVC/FBW or any other gadget. This is basic physics.
Sometimes people cannot see the forest for trees. 😉 [not having a go at you personally MiG – its a general comment relevant to alot of people in the industry]
My point was LERXes have the same function of canards, they give lift ahead of the center of gravity and produce low pressure vortices.
I only mentioned the LERXes on the MiG-29 and Su-27 can make them handle AOA of 120 deg while i have not seen any canarded aircraft doing Cobras and thrust vectoring has make the MiG-29 an excellent fighter better than any Eurofighter in terms of agility and that at supersonic speeds thrust vectoring has the advantage that produces less drag than aerodynamic control surfaces such as canards.
Could you explain how that could cause the Mig to depart controlled flight while doing something that’s easy for the F-16?
Why you do not compare the number of F-16 lost in accidents and the number of MiG-29s, the MiG-29 has better record, the MiG-29 can even out turn your electric jet, a sustained turn rate of 23.5 deg/s against the lower F-16`s sustained turn rate of 21 deg/s
Every design is a compromise and has its pros and contras. There is no perfect design at all.
Suggesting that the MiG-29s aerodynamics are superior to that of Rafale or Typhoon is simply nonsense.
German pilots be it test pilots or airforce pilots have flown the MiG-29 operational and they now fly Eurofighter. As long as the MiG-29s were available they were pitted against each other and evaluated. EVERY pilot confirmed that the Eurofighter’s aerodynamics and flight performance is clearly superior.
And if you do your math you will figure out that Typhoon has a superior TWR with similar load and lower wing loading as well. Eurofighter excells the MiG-29 in nearly every area and not only a bit!
Higher top speed means nothing and the cobra might be a nice airshow manoevre which can’t be flown by the Eurofighter, but it isn’t really important in aircombat. The Eurofigher can pull into a 9 g turn much faster and over a wider flight envelope. It will push 9 g turns longer and loose less speed and provide better control authority at very low speeds and high AoAs. Acceleration and climb rate is superior as its altitude performance.The new MiG-35 performs better in this or that area than the MiG-29 baseline model, but that doesn’t mean it automatically performs better than the Eurofighter. Comparing a TVC equiped aircraft to a non TVC equiped aircraft is nonsense. TVC is a technology which could be integrated into the Typhoon as well, but there is simply no requirement for that at the moment. BTW MiG-29M-OVT is neither the MiG-35, nor is TVC standard for the MiG-35! TVC is an available option.
Your arguments are flawed, the MiG-29A that germany operated were first old and second they had detuned engines, the Germans would never say yes the MiG-29 is better specially when they needed to buy their own fighter.
The Russian analysis also affirm the MiG-29 is better in general terms than the Eurofighter in fact they say the Eurofighter was a political chosen aircraft, technologically the Russians affirm the Eurofighter concept was obsolete even before it entered operational service.
Now if we number the areas the Eurofighter is better, well only probably avionics, weapons and supercruise would speak better of the Typhoon, but in terms of AoA handling and agility or even acceleration the Eurofighter is not better, it is a fact the modern MiG-35 can out turn the Typhoon, if the Russians adapt new weapons and avionics the Typhoon won`t have any superiority beyond Supercruise but who knows perhaps the MiG-35 has achieved parity even in that
Now canards against LERXes and tailplanes won`t mean the Eurofighter Typhoon is better than the MiG-29, in fact strip down the Eurofighter of supercruise, avionics and weapons and the MiG-29 of thrust vectoring and you will find in what respects acceleration from 600km/h to 1200km/h both aircraft have the similar numbers same is climb rate and Sustained turn rate.

Again Mig – go take an aircraft in a sustained high g turn (which usually occur in dogfights), draw yourself a force diagram and tell me which one will bleed the most energy.
You cannot argue with physics, however many examples of post-stall manouvres you want to throw up.
This is according to NASA
Description: On Wednesday, April 24, 1996, the F-15 Advanced Control Technology for Integrated Vehicles (ACTIVE) aircraft achieved its first supersonic yaw vectoring flight at Dryden Flight Research Center, Edwards, California. ACTIVE is a joint NASA, U.S. Air Force, McDonnell Douglas Aerospace (MDA) and Pratt & Whitney (P&W) program. The team will assess performance and technology benefits during flight test operations.
The new nozzles can deflector vector engine thrust Up to 20°off center line, giving the aircraft thrust control in pitch (up and down) and yaw (left and right), or any combination of the two axes. This deflected (vectored) thrust can be used to reduce drag and increase fuel economy or range as compared with conventional aerodynamic controls. The nozzles are a production design that could be incorporated into current or future aircraft.
They are saying something that you forget, convetional aircraft without thrust vectoring nozzles and thrust vectoring produced more drag, this translates into more fuel and energy lost, in a turn your canarded aircraft compared to the one with thrust vectoring nozzles equipped aircraft will loose energy due to drag it will spent more fuel to achieve same results in a turn, this translates in few words in a reduction of the forward vector in a turn.
You want facts – draw yourself a force diagram on the aircraft in a heavy banked/high g turn – you’ll figure it out. 😉
Kilcoo316
Man facts are shown in real life and in that the Su-27 and MiG-29 have done it, i will give you a few real and hard facts:
The LERXed Su-27 and MiG-29 have been doing the Cobra or 120 deg AoA for a very long time.
The IAI Kfir and AJ-37 and even the Mirage 4000 did not perform the Cobra at any airshow in the past.
The Su-35 can do the Cobra turn i have never seen a public demostration of a modern delta fourth generation aircraft doing it. niether the Rafale or Gripen to my knowledge have done it at least publicly.
the Su-37, Su-30MKI and F-22 do the Kulbit regularly at airshows and the Su-37, MiG-29OVT do the double Kulbit also very regularly at any airshow they go.
Have you seen any Typhoon Rafale or Gripen doing it? see that the F-22 has done it simply to show expectators how good is its handling at high AoA.
The IAI Kfir C10. the DENEL Cheetah, Enaer Pantera, SAAB AJ-37 have canards but never have done any a Kulbit or a double Kulbit.
The more advanced Mirage 4000 never made news at LE Burget by doing the Pugachev`s Cobra.
I have never heard that the Rafale did perform the Boomerang or Helicopter.
But i know the MiG-29OVT and the F-16MATV have done them.
Canards by themselves do not make superfighters, the Russians aircraft are triplanes they still use tailplanes and in some cases thrust vectoring.
Consider that the Su-37 has more controls surfaces and vectors, aircraft also have inertia and any aircraft moving forward will retain some inertia and will try to remain moving forward, thrust vectoring is an extra vector helping in a turn, faster you go more inertia you get, any aircraft using thrust vectoring by simply physics will use the thrust vectoring control with discretion and in conjuction with aerodynamic surfaces.

Description: On Wednesday, April 24, 1996, the F-15 Advanced Control Technology for Integrated Vehicles (ACTIVE) aircraft achieved its first supersonic yaw vectoring flight at Dryden Flight Research Center, Edwards, California. ACTIVE is a joint NASA, U.S. Air Force, McDonnell Douglas Aerospace (MDA) and Pratt & Whitney (P&W) program. The team will assess performance and technology benefits during flight test operations.
Current plans call for approximately 60 flights totaling 100 hours. “Reaching this milestone is very rewarding. We hope to set some more records before we’re through,” stated Roger W. Bursey, P&W’s pitch-yaw balance beam nozzle (PYBBN) program manager.
A pair of P&W PYBBNs vectored (horizontally side-to-side, pitch is up and down) the thrust for the MDA manufactured F-15 research aircraft. Power to reach supersonic speeds was provided by two high-performance F100-PW-229 engines that were modified with the multi-directional thrust vectoring nozzles. The new concept should lead to significant increases in performance of both civil and military aircraft flying at subsonic and supersonic speeds.
http://www1.dfrc.nasa.gov/gallery/photo/F-15ACTIVE/HTML/EC96-43485-6.html
here some of the benefits
The new nozzles can deflector vectorengine thrust Up to 20°off center line, giving the aircraft thrust control in pitch (up and down) and yaw (left and right), or any combination of the two axes. This deflected (vectored) thrust can be used to reduce drag and increase fuel economy or range as compared with conventional aerodynamic controls. The nozzles are a production design that could be incorporated into current or future aircraft.
http://www.nasa.gov/centers/dryden/news/FactSheets/FS-048-DFRC.html
Ok, you like the MiG-29 und Su-27.
But please accept, that MiG as well as Sukhoi went for a canard configuration in their following designs.
And as example for post stall manouvering you could have a look at the X-31.
Aurel
I do like aircraft with canards however some people think canards are the best configuration for a fighter, first let us distiguish canards by themselves do not imply better agility for example we have different generations even in tail first aircraft among them we find the IAI Kfir and SAAB AJ-37 Viggen that basicly are third generation aircraft, we have the fourth generation in the JAS-39, J-10, MiG1.42, Typhoon and Rafale, but these have not been the only tail first aircraft the Japanese and Americans developed propeller fighter aircraft with tail first or canards with push propellers since WWII.
Kyushu J7W1 Shinden 
curtiss-wright xp-55 
Modern tail first aircraft are completly different we have two classes the Russian triplanes such as the Su-47 Su-30MKI, Su-34 and Su-33 and the delta canard configuration represented by the Gripen and Rafale

We have also some with fixed canards like the IAI Kfir and ENAER Pantera

and those with moveable foreplanes such as the JAS-39, Gripen, Typhoon and Rafale among others
In few words Aurel canards have different generation therefore different capabilities and some of them are cannon fodder even for aircraft like the F-16 or MiG-29A
You have to realize that the MiG-29OVT uses Klimov designed 3D nozzles, which can be regarded as second generation (same nozzles also offered for J-10). The MKI still uses first generation 2D nozzles, which only move in one axis only.
The nozzle design are still no issues when it comes at high speed maneuvers, which typically are what you don’t see in air shows. Whether or not the MKI’s canards are a factor in high speed maneuverbility is another issue, but at higher speeds, aerodynamic controls generally produce greater authority than TVC controls.
As for Kulbits and Cobras, these are ultra slow maneuvers, which are useless in the high speed air combat that are prevalent today. (Not withstanding that deltas can perform slow high AoA maneuvers; someone in secretprojects.co.uk posted a link to a video in youtube where I saw a Saab Draken perform a cobra like maneuver.)
The Draken`s cobra like maneouvre is not a Pugachev`s Cobra, the aircraft is banking, not like the Su-27 or MiG-29, the canards do help no one say they do not help, however they are not the only solution, the Cobra is a very high AoA maneouvre, the MiG-29 have no canards and do it thanks to large LERXes, the LERXes are basicly doing the same job a Canard does and remember the Su-27 and MiG-29 still have taiplanes, so the aircraft have enough control at high AoA thanks to LERXes and tailplanes.
The Su-35, Su-30MKI and Su-37 have canards due to post stall maneouvring where they need a safety net provided by the canards, yeah the Su-47 and MiG-1.42 have canards too but the Su-47 Berkut also has tailplanes and the MiG-1.42 still has more control surfaces than the Eurofighter, Rafale, Gripen and J-10, this prove canards alone are not enough.
At high speeds thrust vectoring is still useful because aircraft like the F-22 still have taiplanes and these work with thrust vectoring nozzles, so Crobato no designer up to know is building aircraft without aerodynamic control surfaces, however there have been studies of aircraft that have eliminated even the vertical fin and used thrust vectoring in example the X-31

