PAK FA is a paper plane. It doesn’t beat anything but a rock.

It is no more a paper aircraft it is now being build, it is a real aircraft what happens it has not been displayed to the Media, neither presented to the public like once were the MiG 1.44 or S-37

No one can prove that the PAK FA is not better than the F 22, since the PAK FA doesn’t exist:p.

You still don’t know the difference between a paper project and an operational aircraft.

BTW the newspaper confonds the f 22 with the f 35 and ignore the fact that the Raptors have been deployed in Japan after a short delay; in fact there are still there.

Pure BS!

Does not exist? read the paper they are building the PAK FA now, they are assembling it as we chat, what you have to see is there is no way you can prove it won`t be better, if you fly it and you are the PAK FA`s test pilot well i can say you are an authority, or even if you are an engineer of Sukhoi, but who are you? are you scared Russia will build something better? probably yes you are, Russia still is a superpower in aircraft manufacturing and it is believable if they say we are building something better they had done it in the past.

Japan considers the Eurofighter

Japan’s defence ministry is considering adopting the Eurofighter as its next- generation fighter jet, a potentially momentous move for a country that has until now only purchased fighters from the US, its closest military ally.

A decision could be made within the next six months, people familiar with the negotiations said, and the pro*curement deal could run to tens of billions of dollars as Tokyo is looking to replace 250-300 ageing aeroplanes. “We are looking at the Eurofighter, along with other fighters,” said a *defence ministry spokesman. “We are looking at all available data, not just American data.”

Military analysts say that Japan might be assessing the Eurofighter Typhoon as a ploy to press the US on price and access to highly sensitive technology.

Robert Dujarric, a defence expert at Temple University, said Japan would want the political insurance that went along with US jets. He pointed out that Singapore and South Korea both considered buying European fighters before eventually opting for US technology.

The defence ministry needs to replace its fleet of 90 F-4s, which went into service in 1971, and plan for the eventual retirement of its 200 F-15 fighters.

Industry experts say the Japanese really want to buy state-of-the-art F-22A Raptor stealth fighters, made by Lockheed Martin. But that ambition has been thwarted by the US Congress, which has banned the sale of the radar-evading F-22.

Sugio Takahashi, a re*search fellow at the National Institute for Defense Studies in Japan, said Lockheed Martin had been lobbying the US to allow sales to Tokyo. The US company is keen to expand its market because the US military has ordered fewer than half its expected 500 F-22s, pushing unit costs up sharply.

Mr Takahashi said transferring Eurofighter technology would be less sensitive. In the past, Japanese manufacturers such as Mitsubishi Heavy Industries have built US fighters under licence, but given the advance of technology since, their ability to build F-22s is uncertain.

Thomas Schieffer, US ambassador to Tokyo, said it was natural that Japan should consider alternative technology. “Everybody understands the Europeans have good fighters too, and there’s going to be a debate here about what they need.”

The ambassador said it was difficult, though not impossible, to buy technology from countries other than the US, given the need for interoperability on the battlefield. “You want one set of planes you own to talk to another set of planes you own,” he said. Mr Schieffer hoped Japan would end up buying a combination of US technology, including F-22s, if congressional opposition could be overcome.

Even if the export ban were lifted, F-22s could cost Japan more than $200m (£105m) each, according to military experts. But Mr Takahashi says there would also be economic benefits to buying US fighters as they could share maintenance facilities with jets deployed at US bases in Japan.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/332c3534-d58e-11db-a5c6-000b5df10621.html

Man i love this thread, i like news around the world

So have I but whenever I make a point you say I’m wrong.
I spent several years in Texas a a journalist covbering local government and some crime issues. I believe that qualifies me to know something about the immigration issues and the lifestyle of the illegals.
My experience is a bit more “up close” than simply reading anti-American “news” and opinion pieces.

I’ve also lived in Phoenix and Boise, both with large illegal immigrant populations.

Your assessment is partially correct…mmany do come to the US to send money home. But no one is in a hurry to leave.

In some places they probably are taken advantage of by employers, but not as much as you seem to think. If a roofing contractor needs XX many day workers, he’ll pay them the going rate simply because he needs the workers.
No, they’re not fat a$$ union guys getting $30 an hour for unskilled labor, but they’re still making good money by US standards and great money compared to their homes. Combine the fact they get free health care, schooling and meals for their kids, they’re doing pretty well….compared to the rest of the world. The illeagals cost the US tax payers Billions a years in mediacal, walfare and associated costs.
BTW: car insurance anywhere near the border is horrendous because none of them have ccollision insurance and theft problems are huge. When I moved to my current location from Texas, my bill dropped about 30% despite this being a higher cost of living area.

man first of all i have to say i am not anti american, many might think i dislike the US, but not, but i dislike the double standards many americans have, for example you are saying they do not go home?
It really makes me laugh do you know why they do not go back? well simply they can not go back they are illegal, many want to go back but since they have no re-entry allowed they won`t go home so at the end they end up needing, making their life in the US

The question is the US economy needs mexicans that is a reality, a hard fact, but many americans do not want to acknowledge it, the US needs a migratory agreement with Mexico and need laboural mobility in fact the vast majority of Mexicans want to go home, the issue is not as easy as you might think, but undoutedly Mexicans are not the main reason of the Crime in the US simply man you want it to acknowledged or not, crime is a product of two things the americans have created by themsselves, drug demand and guns availability, this is increased by poverty in Mexico and racial discrimination to the african americans,

You have to change you view, you have to understand both Mexico and the US need each other and are complementary to each other economically and historically but is not by hate you will solve the common troubles or even to forget History but by a honest cooperation and acknowledgement both nations need each other and believe me that will give more appeal to Cuba and Venezuela to change their attitudes towards the US.

The fact I want the nafta and cafta agreements withdrawn and you have no clue on the realities of these matters has nothing to do with the topic on the venezuelan su-30 downing an f-16 over cuba or related matter. Venezuela might buy Russian, but the truth is the majority of South America is indebted by the choices of their own people to the world banks and not to a sole U.S. power. Life isn’t free and those people can’t make desperate decision to better themselves. If they relied more on themselves in the first plane they’d never racked up the debts. Even now Venezuela is sinking itself with this mad game of bluff with the u.s. and they too will collapse under their own weight.

But you forget the nation with the biggest debt in the world is not Venezuela even not Brazil or Mexico but the old US, yes buddy the US has the biggest debt of all, and NAFTA of CAFTA do not work not because the Idea is a bad one but because they have not evolved into a more developed frame based upon true cooperation

By the way Chavez in not bluffing, he is just representing the total disenchanment felt by the poor masses of South America with NAFTA or CAFTA, if venezuela gathers forces with Cuba is simply because contrary to Europe that has a more developed work frame, the US has an economic plan that does not appeal to the domestic industries of South America, specially to the more developed and advanced Brazilian industry, and Chavez is not willing to deliver the venezuelan oil to US firms, Chavez plays the same card the Brazilian industry or farmers play, yes buddy PROTECTIONISM, when you see that you will understand that for south america an economic union is more important than join NAFTA, in few words for south american Mercosur is more important than NAFTA.

They bought Su-30s simply because they know the Russian care less about sanctions or embargoes, and Chavez knows that Castro is a genious of survival, so he supports him as a way of supporting his PAN-latin-americanism

Then why do they (and their realative, friends, etc)…keep coming?
Beacuse, even as “poor” Americans…they still have a better life here than in Mexico.

They’ve had 20 years of serving fat Canadians and Europeans…(ever see a bikini wearing German man lounging poolside on holiday…not a pretty sight!).

Man you are completly painting a reality that does not exist.

Since i have been to both the US and Mexico, i am qualified to express my opinion

It is true that poor americans have less dificulties than poor Mexicans, but the gap between both levels of poverty is not as you claim, the reason why mexicans go to the US has nothing to do with a better life than in Mexico.

Mexican shanty towns, are in reality worst than American bad neighborhoods but the difference is not as you portrait

Examples:

A poor Mexican in Mexico city can have at least a single meal a day, but the housing will be relatively worst than an american suburb, it might not have running water, potable water and electricity in an average of 15% of all the shanty towns houses.

The rural poors in Mexico are in worst conditions than the average urban poor, that it is true, in many cases malnutrition will be in the rate of 15% of the rural poor.

Now if you try to have a middle class living standard you will be surprised to find that a mexican living in Mexico city needs a salary of at least USD $2000 to keep a family of 3-4 members not far from the average American middle low class family

Housing in Mexico city is as expensive as many of the american cities in fact Mexico city is among the 70 most expensive cities of the world and close to a quarter of Mexico`s population lives there

While you might think Mexicans live better that is not true, illegal mexicans in the US live in overcrowed houses, hardly can pay small rooms are are unable to rent middle or even low middle class houses with a single salary, many of the apartments they share are infested with coackroaches, roedents and termites.

The main reason why Mexicans live in the US is to send money back home and at least keep their families in Mexico under the low middle class bracket

In the US many Mexicans, do not have the universally acknowledged workers rights, relying in far more than 8 hrs of daily work to rent small apartments that usually they share with relatives or friends pooling more than 2 or 3 single salaries to pay for the rent, and even in reality they won`t miss at least three meals a day, they hardly can consider their standards of living middle class and probably they can live in Mexico better if they could earn a salary as they earn in the US, that is the reason Mexicans send Money to live better in Mexico

Consider that those mexicans suffer persecution just for doing works americans either do not want to do or won`t do for the salary paid, illegal mexicans are not well paid and even persecuted just for working, that is very close to slavery since they are abused, threated and not well paid in fact if you want to see what really mexicans think about that watch the video
WATCH the video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m8mvByJ5Ds0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pLUiBL610w4&mode=related&search=

Yes I agree with your claim that Eurofighter, Rafale and the Su Families are on par in terms performance/agility/weaponry, I think they are relatively evenly matched in these regards, with the Raptor perhaps slightly edging it. But I would not put the Su families in the same class as its my understanding that it was to be a subsonic fighter, with supersonic dash capabilities; like all of the teen fighters. I believe the Raptor and Eurocanards were designed from the off-set with supersonic-cruise and supersonic-manueverability in mind. It is my understanding that the Su-families will have similar supersonic performance to the F-15 type fighter. But from comment comming from Dozer, the F-22 is outstanding in the supersonic realm. Thats why I would not include the Su families as they are older and their design philosophys are perhaps from an older era. I believe the Raptor has perhaps slightly better performance than its rivals; even sources that are perhaps biased to the Eurofighter make such claims, such as Joust and from journalists ‘in-the-know'(who I trust more).

Areas like LPI, AESA, Radar… I believe the Raptor will maintain a decent edge over all its rivals; as there is much more funding a) and there has been a lot more research into it on the american side of things b).

Its much more stealthy period. I dont believe that fighter radars will catch up anytime soon(I do believe LM engineers had all this in mind when building the aircraf). Even with the latest american AESAs such as APG-77 supposedly not being able to detect the Raptor front on at any useful range. The Radar apertures are just to small. Other means of dection might prove more usefull, but again they have their problems. Combine that with the need to ID the Raptor and track it, I believe the Raptor will maintain a significant BVR advantage for some time to come 10, 20 years + who knows. With the use of ng BVRAAMs the lethality of the F-22 in the BVR role might even increase. WVR is 50/50, but the F-22 when fully mature will be as good as anything it has to face, perhaps its weakness will be its small numbers. But it might have other advantages in WVR, entering the merge with superior SA, and perhaps undetected.

If American sources are to be believed its SA(from sensors and data fusion) will be second to none, especially when fully matured, along with its MMI. That could be a big advantage over all its rivals.

All in all its an outstanding feat of engineering combing all into one platform.

The F-22`s only real advantage over the Eurofighter, Rafale and Su-35BM is STEALTH, supercruise and super agility can be achieved fitting AL-41s to the Su-35BM, and with ASRAAMs and Meteors there is no real F-22 close combat advantage over the Russian or European aircraft

The question remains if the Russians or Europeans can detect the F-22 and if stealth really works? if it works, the F-22 will rule, but if it does not then the Eurofighter, Rafale, Su-34 and Su-35BM can simply be on par with the F-22.

The PAK FA and XXJ will make even the stealth factor but everything depends in how sensitive are modern radars and how smart are to analize the information given, the F-117 was detected, but to neutralize the F-22 you just need detect it.

If the Russians or European can make radars capable to crack stealth then the F-22 will turn to be a very expensive fiasco

I was thinking the same thing. The Sea Harrier never had ASRAAM and the GR7/9 certainly doesn’t have AMRAAM.

The Tornado IDS is an excellent strike aircraft, one to be really proud of and well proven in combat time and again. Tornado ADV has been vastly improved over the years and does have the benefit of a well sorted radar, good avionics, ASRAAM/AMRAAM and some excellent tactics. The Jaguar is a good close support/strike aircraft but an American F series or a Mig 29/Su27 it ain’t.

They have had some good aircraft, certainly a few exceptional ones in certain fields but nothing in the league of the Typhoon. Not the whole caboodle all roled into one neat package. This is catchup time and for some it’ll be payback on the ranges.

The harrier can fire both the SRAAM and AMRAAM

http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/7605/sharr4.jpg

And definitively it fires the AMRAAM the Harrier FA2 was equipped with AMRAAMs and has the Blue Vixen Radar, however i think the ASRAAM never became operational my apollogies if that is the case