It wasn’t shot down and it was the missile and not the aircraft that had the advantage? Why are we digging up old threads?
It was shot down, of course it was because it was put out of action thanks to battle damage, but showed some main drawbacks of the R-60 as it was shown in the 1982 Bekka valley combats when an F-15 made it back to its base.
The main drawback is the Russians sacrificed warhead size to make the R-60 small, would it had been bigger the F-15 would had been shot down and the Mirage F1 would had never made it to base after been hit by a R-60.
If you want to praise the Mirage F1 characteristics well the aircraft was a bit lucky since it was not inmediately shot down, but at the end was a lost and it counts as shot down for many Historians specially those in Russia and Cuba.
However your question can be answered like this: The MiG-23 was a good aircraft but the R-60 needed a more powerful warhead or a bigger warhead
You are free to have a different opinion, but not everyone in this world agree with such historical position you hold.
With a realistic true airspeed for each of 1000km/h in a head-on flight, the advantage of a kilometer additional tracking distance is equal to 2 seconds. I doubt very much that from the given technical advantage any real tactical advantage can be derived.
It had advantages and they were clear, in fact this is a result, a South african Mirage F1 shot down by a MiG-23ML

The MiG-23ML were shot down by SAMs but none was by a Mirage F1
sourcehttp://www.airwar.ru/history/locwar/lamerica/cuba23/cuba23.html
The better radar and AAM are ok, when it comes to SAAF examples.
Better agility is wrong, maybe you have some data to bolster that claim. 😉
Russian experts say the following
Практически во всем диапазоне высот на скоростях 700-1100 км/ч МиГ-23М превосходил “Мираж” F-1 по маневренности и скороподъемности. При скоростях более 1100 км/ч на средних и больших высотах летчику МиГ-23М было невыгодно вести бой с “Миражом” на установившихся виражах
basicly says practically in the whole altitude envelope at speeds of 700km/h to 1100km/h, the MiG-23M surpassed the Mirage F1 in agility and acceleration. at speeds higher than 1100km/h the Mirage F1 had the upper hand at medium and high altitudes
source http://www.airwar.ru/enc/fighter/mig23m.html
this was proven simply by the fact the Mirage F1 could not nail a single MiG-23ML, and this was because the MiG-23ML is an improved MiG-23M
Could you explain that chart a bit? To me it seems like the F1 and F-4 both had better radars than the MiG-23M. Isn’t that radar reach vs. height? :confused:
It is not as difficult as it seems but of course i can explain it to you
first let us say сапфир-23д-III по Мираж F1 means the Saphir`s radar detection range of a Mirage F1 at different altitudes and ranges, the other ones are like this
Сирано IV по МиГ-23М this means the Cyrano radar detecting the MiG-23M
obviously AN/APQ-120 по МиГ-23М, means the AN/APQ-120 detecting the MiG-23M
Д this D means the range in kilometers and is on the horizontal axis and in russian means range and is the russian word for дальности, it is on what is traditionally the X ordinate in a math graph, so obviously the other vertical ordinate is altitude.
If you look well you will see the MiG-23M had a better radar, however the MiG-23ML has a better radar so we can not say it was inferior to the Mirage F1.
Consider it had also long range R-24
Thanks – and how long could you maintain high Mach 2.8 for? What range? So the optimum speed performance came at 10 000 meters? That is interesting – cheers.
The answers for some of those questions are answered very easily, using the manual you know that with Bombs the MiG-25R won`t surpass Mach 2.35 and will fly at speeds of Mach 2.6 and Mach 2.83 for no more than 5 minutes.
Thr range will vary at mach 2.35 no more than 1400km range
without bombs a no more than 1200 with them, this without the use of fuel tanks
That were flown by Cubans and there was no performance disparity, when it comes to flight perfomances. 😉
There was not an overwhelming superiority but the MiG-23ML was better, better radar, better missiles and better agility.
To cue and lock on the missile you need good agility, the Mirage F1 were unable to do it, it was performance not the missile, the missile was an element but not the main reason if they could not lock on the MiG-23s on the gun sight was simple lack of better performance and at least one Mirage F1 was shot down, since the missile hit it and disabled it to the degree of crash landing it
http://www.airwar.ru/image/idop/fighter/mig23m/mig23m-2.gif
This is a chart showing even the MiG-23M had a better radar
Not my task to do so. 😀
So far there is not even a correct Syrian claim about losses and claims of 1982.
The Syrians claims have to be wrong at all, because there are no Israeli confirmations about that. I do point to the claimed F-16s and F-15s losses. :diablo:
There is nothing like some generalisation about that.
For the benefit of the others. During the YKW 73 the F-4E losses were 32 to all causes. By the agreement with USA about the ceasefire from August 1970, they were replaced by an one to one base. See Operation Nickle Grass about that.
In fact this russian source goes in between the western and Russian sources.
it admits Israel did not lose any F-15 and F-16 and it only lost 3 aircraft an A-4, an F-4 and a Kfir besides some helicopters and proves the kill of an AH-1 with a picture, however when they talk about the MiG-25R kill they say the following
В израильских источниках встречается информация о уничтожении сирийского разведчика МиГ-25 31-го августа 1982, что не соответствует действительности. Даже к концу года в составе ВВС Сирии не числилось боеготовых самолетов этого типа, а первые МиГ-25РБС начали эксплуатироваться в начале 1983, появляясь в т.ч. и над Ливаном.
they say that Israeli sources claim a MiG-25R kill, however it is not true since the Syrian MiG-25Rs were not operational in 1982 and only got operational in 1983
source http://www.skywar.ru/Lebanon.html
see in fact they say this
31-aug-82
MiG-25RB
–
Antelias
–
False report – claimed by “Hawk” SAM
http://www.skywar.ru/lebwar.html
Not my task to do so. 😀
So far there is not even a correct Syrian claim about losses and claims of 1982.
The Syrians claims have to be wrong at all, because there are no Israeli confirmations about that. I do point to the claimed F-16s and F-15s losses. :diablo:
your answer is not even smart, if you claim something and some one has another version, you have to prove your version
http://www.1stbusinesslebanon.com/civilwar/civi2.html 😉
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antelias
man the page does not prove the MiG-25R kill, it has no picture, no proof no evidence.
If you get Syrian sources claiming they lost it well it can prove your point but besides that the page is just a recollection of some pictures to support an account that generalizes the situation in the battlefield, it does not prove all the kills claimed, just generalizes victories using few pictures.
i can also generalize see
if in 1973 israel lost F-4s

and Gil Fogel was shot down in a F-4 in 1982 then the MiG-23Ms manned by Heyrat and Zabi did shot down more F-4s as some russian sources say

Sourceshttp://www.waronline.org/IDF/Articles/lebanon-losses.htm
If intrested in the real story of the MiG-25P from 13th Feb. 1981, please note, otherwise you have to stick to the Russian website variation of that, based on Western publications about that in the 80s. 😀
If both sides admit the kill, then it proves the kill, that is the important part, if not then you need more evidence to claim a third kill over Lebanon in 1982, one sided claims are just claims if they do not show a picture, that is the reason they claim it is a hoax, there is not evidence proving it, just a posibility depending if you believe an upgraded Hawk SAM and an F-15 shot down the MiG-25RB
could be. I don’t have a way to figure out, I don’t know russian.
this is one source that supports my point.http://www.spyflight.co.uk/foxb.htm
btw, if that was what the foxbats did, doesn’t this mean they had some rudimentary A2A capability at the very least ?
You are not forced to believe the russian report however if you are more skeptic, you simply can wonder where is the evidence to such kill
Will you never learn to listen to important details.
One website (rustrana)was about the MiG-25P only. So nothing wrong about that and the report of the ambush. Of intrest here are the flight range given.
The airwar.rus side does a claim about a F-15 loss, which does resemble the loss of the MiG-25R one year later. 😀 The pilot was picked up by boats of the Lebanese coast and that had not gone unnoticed. So there is no problem to find confirmation by Lebanese and international press reports about that.
The MiG-25P loss is the same story from the other website with the same mistakes too. The two baits were RF-4Es if at all and no RF-4Cs as given.
VBK-news did repeat the same story after 25 years. So no new details or questions to that. But something typical, when a given story is receicled several times under different topics. No name of a pilot to track for confirmation, no number of aircraft or unit at least to do something similar.The report of Flight International was printed several times in Russian too.
If it was wrong as you did claim, the Russians were not forced to print it or had the opportunity to disprove it by facts. Nothing did happen about that. 😉
Maybe I find the time to go to the cellar to look into some AFM from that time scale.
The point is they do not report a third kill, you avoid the main fact, they do not claim a third kill.
Prove beyond a report that MiG-25R kill, with a picture or a wreckage or an official Syrian report admiting that kill
The problem is, that you have problems in reading English more than once.
How many thousand feet under the surface of the Medit. that wreckage is to find? But when you do stick to your opinion, why not. That incident did not change the outcome of 1982. 😉
http://pilot.agr.su/dax/13/1/index.shtml
The article is a translation of of a western magazine into Russian.
What is acknolwledged in most russian articles is two MiG-25s were shot down
see http://www.rustrana.ru/article.php?nid=3592
http://www.airwar.ru/history/locwar/bv/mig25isr/mig25isr.html
http://www.vpk-news.ru/article.asp?pr_sign=archive.2006.124.articles.army_03
При помощи МиГ-25 была отснята большая часть территории Израиля.
В дальнейшем самолеты МиГ-25РБ ВВС Сирии выполнили ряд успешных разведывательных полетов над территорией Израиля и Южного Ливана. При этом попытки перехвата также оказались безуспешными (сообщения израильтян об уничтожении над г. Бейрутом одного из МиГ-25РБ не соответствуют действительности).
this article mentions the Syrians did employ the MiG-25 for recce flights over the territory of Israel and Southern Lebanon, further more its says the Israeli attempts of intercepting the MiG-25 were unsuccesful and the reports of a MiG-25RB shot down over Beirut are untrue
Sorry, you are wrong with the claim about pictures. Pictures could be “doctored” or get the wrong caption.
Prominent example are remains of F-4E No 129 at Cairo, which were shown as Israeli loss inflicted by Egyptian forces in 1973. The people of Aviation Week and Space Technology did publish it that way too. In reality it was a loss from 1970 and inflicted by Russian SAM-sites. Published long enough with that wrong caption it will create a new reality about that pic. 😮
That it can be done by any warring side, there is not such things like nations that do not lie.
However i am only saying that proving the 1982 kill by the Israelies beyond a claim is not easy, up to what i remember the 1981 February kill was recovered at least some russian sources claimed they even found AIM-7 fragments incrusted in the MiG-25 wreckage.
The Israelies at least to my knowledge have not proven that kill or at least shown proof of that wreckage, so the 1982 case has not been proven, and the Russians denied such kill, therefore for russian sources it never happened and no MiG-25R was ever shot down by Israel
the israelis have kills against syrian foxbats with phantoms IIRC.
all the russians sources and accounts i have read up to now, do not support that, the F-15 was the only MiG-25 killer and only 2 aircraft were shot down