Flogger wrote:

“Uhmm more of the same, funny you can claim NATO forces had BVR combat so if they do not find wreckage of air combat it means okay but the Serbs are different they should prove all their claims because they are a bunch of liars, the West can not lie every thing would be known in minutes uhm….”

Flogger, You do you realise that the NATO claims of air-to-air kills tie in exactly with the corresponding post combat reports of Serb MiG-29 pilots? You have failed to comprehend or realise this fact. Why?

Flogger wrote:

“In what kind of world do you live? if an aircraft is missing you just say accident, conviniently, or a crash landing or fratricide, yeah yeah.”

I live in an open society. I served in the RAF for 22 years. You live in Russia, correct? Can the Russian Ministry of Defence provide a list of serials for every combat aircraft in their inventory. Are these lists published? Are they accountable to the tax payer, members of parliament, audit offices etc?

Flogger, this is where your simple naivety is glaringly apparent.You believe that RAF Harriers and Tornadoes were combat lost during Allied Force. You are now telling me that these NATO losses are all being covered up with claims of accidents etc. Take a step back. Explain to me and other on this forum exactly how the combat loss of aircraft A is being covered up? Explain to me exactly how aircraft A is still being covered up nearly 7 years after the event? For the loss to have taken place you would have to announce it as an accident. The aircraft are accountable. Are you naively suggesting that an accident in the UK post conflict was to cover up for the loss of an aircraft during the conflict?

Flogger your claims of “anything can be covered up” is extremely naive. You have failed consistently to explain how the loss of an RAF Harrier or Tornado over Yugoslavia can be covered up to this day?

yeah TEEJ democracy means angels populate the west media who do not lie :rolleyes:

That’s what I’ve been saying for awhile now.

yeah please man i hate the idea of people who care more about phrases than a normal conversation, we are talking about discrepancies in versions and niether sens or arthur have proven any thing beyond believing a theory and a version of the event according to the Israeli

“See that both links have the same pictures”
When one link gives the source of that.
The ER-armour of Magach 6 was effective against anti-tank missiles and rocket-propelled grenades used by the Syrians, but not yet perfect. This Magach was one of two confirmed victims of Syrian Army anti-tank teams during the fighting in June 1982. (US DoD via Tom Cooper)
Like in other books and magazines quoted too.
If you do not see the difference in behavior, none can help you and thrust your claims.

Okay let`s start by this point, what you want to find with those picture and what are you proving?

Are you proving tanks were not destroyed ? answer no, are you proving the russian links wrong? no because you are not proving the Russians wrong because you are just focusing in one base, these were tanks destroyed this day or that day, does it prove there were no T-72 victories or Mi-24? answer no, it does not

Are you proving Mil corporation wrong?
no the reality you are only answering questions your self ask focused in two pictures to prove no Mi-24 victories.

At no moment see read what i have posted i said those kills were Mi-24 victories, i just said this fact proves you there were tank losses and Mil corporation to cite an example claims the Mi-24 destroyed Israeli tanks.

You are focusing in two wreckages to claim there were no Mi-24 victories over Israeli armour and tanks can you prove that with those pictures? no, you can not prove that because you also lack all the Bekka valley tank kills and at no moment Waronline claimed only two tanks were destroyed in fact thay alone claim at least 6 Merkava tank totaly lost and many more hit, you are not talking about M-60 or other types of armour.
See that Waronline also speculates about the number of Israeli tanks destroyed and does not give a total proof and specific number of Israeli tanks destroyed, they in part are guessing among the different sources they used

The fact we have few pictures in fact very few tanks wreckages does not mean there were not more kills and among them other Mi-24 or T-72 victories, What you can not prove now is the israeli Merkava Tanks were not destroyed, niether other Israeli tanks and armour.

Can you prove the Mi-24 was not operated in 1982? the answer is no because you have Russian reports among one by a Russian General who was there in 1982 proving the Russian direct involvement and the Mil coorporation (the Mi-24 maker) claiming the Mi-24 took part of the Syrian anti tank effort and destroyed some of the Israeli tanks and armor that were destroyed by Syria .

You as ACIG pretent to be very smart and know more than the Russians in what respects what Syria used and not because obviously you were there niether because the Russians did not send advisors, military attaches, equipment and the Mi-24 itself no it is only becasue we have to believe a link under the theory the Russians won`t know what Syria used, the Russians lie and you do not.

Just wait, at first I wait about the infos from ‘MiG-23MLD’ about the pics given.
If you can not wait, here is a first glimpse about that.
http://www.acig.org/artman/publish/article_279.shtml
Of special note is the last pic of the Merkava and the topic, where it was hit, posted by ‘MiG-23MLD’ before in #101!
It is to note, that I have some reservations about parts of the text, but in general it is correct compared to other sources, like ‘Operation Peace for Galilee’ by R.A. Gabriel, 1984 .

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/report/1987/SGC.htm

Here a good read about day by day. A good map of Lebanon is in need to follow the events. Next best thing to book given by me above.
We keep in mind that the authors had no idea about our future dispute of possible envolvement of Mi-24!!!!!!!

Let`s go by parts, your way of asking won`t solve anything

After closely monitoring the Iraqi experiences with Mi-25s, the Syrians relatively early dropped the use of AT-2 almost completely, and were arming their Mi-25s with machine-guns and unguided rockets, or bombs only. For various reasons that stood in no relation directly to the SyAAF, the introduction of Gazelles and Mi-25s in service with SyAAF was not entirely complete by spring of 1982. In fact, eventually the Syrian Hinds were not to see any kind of combat service during the fighting against Israelis. Consequently, although there is a number of reports of the contrary ・especially in the Russian and Ukrainian, but also in specialized Western publications – the SyAAF Mi-25s did not fly even a single combat sortie in 1982: when it comes to the SyAAF anti-tank operations Gazelles fought almost alone.

here we have a claim based on what? a Western opinion claiming the Russians are liars, the Russians claimed the Helicopter destroyed tanks ah but we have to believe this because of what?
you believe this account that contradicts Russian and Ukranian accounts on the base of what?
Your base is simply you are biased, there is no way in reality to know if the Mi-24 fought or not unless you have documents from Syria and i mean big cheese documents, you are the same simply believing a counter propaganda western style report which denies any validity even to MiL on the bases of supposedly Western accuracy.

You are just using a pro-western report that has no more validity tha any russian reports simply because the Russians send their weapons there and know if they did fight, and very likely they did simply becasue for the Russians that was another chance to test their Mi-24

In fact i never claimed that picture was from a Mi-24 kill i gave you a Russian source that says that same that the one you gave from acig org, the only difference you have with that link i gave http://www.btvt.narod.ru/2/syria1.html is you have a very well elaborate modification of what this source says read it compared and you will see the Russians also say the merkava was destroyed by a RPG, what you are trying to do is put words i did not say in order to Justify that a western link can know more than Mil company or the Russian links, why becasue accoding to your link no T-72 kills niether Mi-24 ah but only Gazzle helicopter kills yeah yeah when the Gazzele is not a Helicopter in the class of the Mi-24, the Mi-24 is a heavy ah but the gazzle is western and so only western equipment can beat western equipment yeah yeah Sens

See that both links have the same pictures

I don’t know if you have a date/location for that small pic on the far right, but it looks a lot like a MiG-29 canopy to me.

It is a F-4 rear canopy, it is from some Israeli-arab war, i found that picture posted ina russian forum about the 1982 air war over Lebanon.

See the picture again and you will see it is far too flat to be a MiG-29 canopy

You take yourself not very seriously. I had and still have a clear question about Mi-24s in combat in Lebanon 1982!!!!!!!
When you claim a Russian source, you can give from that some details to verify that, like date,location and number claimed. Waronline did not bolster you claim about Mi-24 in Lebanon 1982, when they did for the Gazelle.

The old strange behavior, when a question becomes to uncomfortable, you switch the topic. But I am not intrested to comment pics from the Iraq-War. By the way questionable pics, when it comes to date and location.

Sens

Please be logic what happens you want to be too specific and find a picture to each kill, that is not bad but it is something you won`t find even in the best books.

Waronline is talking about the Merkava kills, they first are not giving a perfect account, their account has some supposition and speculations, their account since is made by pro Israeli russians, gives an account more less according to what Israel claims.

Other Russian accounts can prove you easily that Israel has lost tanks, waronline only gives you what they think Israel lost.

They said gazelles were used and inflicted kills to Israeli tanks in one battle, it is true but also the Mi-24 was used by the Syrians, the Mi-24 is far more powerful than the Gazzlele, it is a true Gunship, you are claiming that the Mi-24 is not capable to destroy tanks.

Your whole statement can not be logic because if Israel lost tanks to helicopter gunships you can see that in the Mi-24 combat record by the Russian, it has nothing unlikely to be true in what respects tanks.

http://www.btvt.narod.ru/2/syria1.html

I attached two pictures of a Merkava on fire and a Syrian Mi-24

The pic shows a F-4 over Al Mansurah in 1973. GE 31°58′ N and 31°27′ E for viewing.

Returning to the main topic the Russian sources claimed the Mi-24 was used with success against Israeli tanks in 1982, their reports also claim the Mi-24 was used in anger against the Iranians too, they claimed that the Mi-24 was capable of hitting and destroying enemy tanks and helicopters

here are some pictures from http://www.waronline.org that shows you that Israel indeed lost tanks in 1982 some were lost to gazzele helicopters but there are several other weapons used in that war to justified several Israeli and Syiran tanks destroyed.

http://www.waronline.org/IDF/Articles/T72myth.htm
the pictures are of two Merkava tanks destroyed in Lebanon in 1982