When someone sends pics, he has to give the source. When and where it was taken and what to show. That are the basics for verfication and the first step to avoid manipulations from that! I hope that missing infos will follow fast.

Indeed we need exact details about kills and wreckages, Russian souces sometimes have interesting pictures for example these Afghan-Soviet war pictures where you can see some aircraft wreckages, here is the link

http://otvaga.vif2.ru

The Idea that the Russians always lie is a very common perception in the Western world, nevertheless many times the Russian sources report russian aircraft losses

Flogger wrote:

“Tell me how many HUD displays have you seen from 1991 showing Iraqi aircraft shot down and published?, how can you prove all the SAM claimed aircraft kills in 1991 were only SAMs caused and not by aircraft carreid air to air missiles beside the own NATO statements?”

What has NATO got to do with operations during the Gulf in 1991? Pssst it wasn’t NATO. Not doing very well on this thread now are you? You do understand that the majority of kills were BVR. What do you want to see the radar tapes from AWACS and every gun-camera footage with Fulcrums etc filling the HUD?

Flogger wrote:

“There is something you should see and understand pictures can be manipulated too, you say there is only two pictures so it means only two aircraft were shot down, yes so it means the Serbs always recovered the wreckage ? no you tactic to explain it implies the Serbs always recovered their enemies aircraft wreckages, possible uhmm……? “

So where all all the missing aircraft then? Explain how they are still being covered up today from aircraft spotters, tax payers, members of parliament, serving and retired armed forces members etc? You can’t! You fail time and time again in your arguement. For such a cover up to have taken place would involve a plethora of individuals to be involved in it. I served during Allied Force from a very unique position. There were only ever two combat search and rescue missions flown. Apart from those very well known losses no other aircrew ejected from any aircraft involved in combat operations over Yugoslavia.

Your claims of Harriers and Tornados missing are laughable. You fail to even grasp the political culture that exists in the UK. A combat loss of an aircraft under Blairs command would not last five minutes before the story broke. You naively think that anything can be covered up. Is it your mindset, the regime that you were brought up in? The same goes for the U.S. An undisclosed combat loss under Clinton’s command would similarly not have lasted five mintues let alone 7 years!

What you are naively falling for is all the cheap propaganda that was spewn out in regards to NATO aircraft losses. You have bought them hook line and sinker. You see images of combat jettisoned fuel tanks and naively think that they belong to a complete aircraft lost in combat. Why? It doesn’t take much to understand your simple naivety when you examine the image that you posted claiming to be an F-14 wreckage. It simply beggars belief! This simple naivety extends into your defence of the image and how you were positive it was an F-14. Again simply staggering!!

You naively believe that NATO suffered undisclosed combat losses. I’ve explained the serial system to you in past thread posts and the lengths that individuals take to track them down. Do you even understand the definition of the term ‘aircraft spotter’?. Flogger do you naively think that for the past 7 years there has been continued re-marking of serials to cover up the loss of an aircraft way back in 1999? You fail to grasp even the very basics of the serial system. It appears to be completely alien to you along with the wealth of information compiled by numerous groups and individuals. How are they still doing it Flogger in an open society. How are they hiding the losses to this day? Did they secretly re-open the production lines? You just naively believe!

Uhmm more of the same, funny you can claim NATO forces had BVR combat so if they do not find wreckage of air combat it means okay but the Serbs are different they should prove all their claims because they are a bunch of liars, the West can not lie :rolleyes: every thing would be known in minutes uhm….

In what kind of world do you live? if an aircraft is missing you just say accident, conviniently, or a crash landing or fratricide, yeah yeah.

We can see in the mass media easily HUD displays full with aircraft blowing yeah, yeah uhm….TEEJ read first what i wrote meditate and see this small detail, i might have done a mistake, but i acknowledged it, and rectified it, you try to portrait me as a naive person, no man, i know politics more than you pretend i know and remember No man is a saint but God, all men are sinners and translate it to this, no political system is made out of saints or angels, lies are not a racial or political attribute but a common feature of men in all societies in that includes the West, so when you prove combat records truth can be twisted vey easily.

An statements says a SAM killed an aircraft a counter statement says the same aircraft was shot down by an AAM, usually all combat records are challenged; another statement says accident and the counter claim says kill.

You might think you are not as Venik but sorry you are the same like him, only that you are por western

Flogger, its not my fault that you sadly believe in numerous undisclosed NATO manned aircraft losses. If I remember correctly you believe that RAF Tornadoes and Harriers never returned from their mission over Yugoslavia. Sadly you are so very wrong. But never mind here is something to keep that dream alive.

“BELGRADE, Mar. 17 – A unique collection of the NATO war memorabilia opened in Belgrade on Friday, Mar. 17, as a prized exhibit in the Yugoslav Army’s airspace museum, the Associated Press reported on Mar. 18. The museum director unveiled several new pieces to mark the March 24 anniversary of NATO’s air bombardment of this Balkan nation.

Among the new pieces were the very first Tomahawk missile shot down by the Yugoslav air defense the day the campaign began, and a highly sophisticated AGM 154, which when dropped from an aircraft releases cluster bombs.

The 1,500 NATO artifacts collected or donated from across the country take up half the ground floor of the three-story domed building.

Museum Director Cedomir Janjic said more pieces were being polished and prepared for the exhibit * in a new wing to be dedicated to the air strikes.

“It is truly amazing how many aircraft and drones were downed with the relatively modest and primitive equipment” of the Yugoslav army, Minister for Science and Development Cedomir Mirkovic said Friday.

The downing of the F-117A was the first known loss of a stealth aircraft in combat. The pilot ejected and was later rescued by U.S. troops. Next to the stealth lay the remains of an F-16 fighter like a giant bird’s wing. It was hit by an SA-3 surface-to-air missile. Its tailpiece, chipped and charred around the edges, still brandished a huge white painted Night Hawk, the AP report said.

Mirkovic refuted Western claims that Yugoslav air defense downed only the two planes. “We shall prove we have more,” he said, without elaborating. During the bombing, the then-chief of the Yugoslav army, Gen. Dragoljub Ojdanic, claimed 61 NATO aircraft had been downed.

A few feet away, a Predator drone hung suspended from the ceiling like a large model plane. It was one of seven pilotless NATO drones on display. Six more had yet to be recovered from unexplored sites, Janjic said.

In total, Mirkovic said, the Serbs downed more than 230 Tomahawks.”

Mirkovic refuted Western claims that Yugoslav air defense downed only the two planes. “We shall prove we have more,” he said, without elaborating.

Flogger, in a few month it will have been seven long years since Mirkovic made that statement. “We shall prove we have more,” he said. Does that give you a warm fuzzy feeling Flogger? Is it really seven long years of massive cover-up Flogger, or did these claimed ‘undisclosed’ losses actually NEVER take place?

Do you naively think that undisclosed combat losses under Blair and back then Clinton can still be covered up? Do you naively think that the bubble is going to burst and your so-called ‘truth’ is going to come to fruition?

TEEJ

Tell me how many HUD displays have you seen from 1991 showing Iraqi aircraft shot down and published?, how can you prove all the SAM claimed aircraft kills in 1991 were only SAMs caused and not by aircraft carreid air to air missiles beside the own NATO statements?

There is something you should see and understand pictures can be manipulated too, you say there is only two pictures so it means only two aircraft were shot down, yes so it means the Serbs always recovered the wreckage ? no you tactic to explain it implies the Serbs always recovered their enemies aircraft wreckages, possible uhmm……? you claimed accidents killed aircraft in the war zone, can not you disguise a kill as a Fratricide as the pakistani F-16 killed by a Soviet MiG-23MLD? or claimed a R-60 that hitted a Mirage F1 that crashed as a result of malfunctions of the missile impact called only crash landing loss? does it mean if you do not have all the pictures but a few that less aircraft were shot down?

The difference between you and Venik is you are bias upon western aircraft because you follow a self appointed believe the West is synonim of freedom and is populated by angels who never lied.

Venik does the same only that he appplies that to the Russian angels.

The Reality is you as Venik manipulate information and possibilites to tell a more less believeable account.

You can not prove in reality all what is written in the west because liars are everywhere

You mean Venik’s website that simply parodied the junk that was coming out of Yugoslavia at the time. The propaganda that was spun for the Serb populace and revealed after the conflict as such.

This disinformation campaign was revealed in “INAT: Images of Serbia and the Kosovo Conflict” by Scott Taylor He describes an interview with Bojan Bugarcic on 25th November 1999 (Bugarcic, was the Senior Advisor on International Affairs to Yugoslav President Milosevic)

The relevant passage follows on pp 123-124: “He [Bugarcic] said that, throughout the war, a tremendous, and extremely effective, propaganda campaign had been mounted by the Serbian military. The aim was to keep the populace believing their forces were mounting a spirited defence. “Using the state broadcaster, unofficial ‘Russian intelligence’ web pages and Army communiqués, the deception had been so successful that many people were fooled. My 22-year-old translator, Vlada Kopric, was one example. While he vehemently denounced the government-controlled RTS media network as spouting ‘pure lies,’ his explorations on the Internet had led him to the bogus Russian intelligence site. As a result, up until my November interview with Bugarcic, Vlada had truly believed that the Serbian military had successfully shot down 78 NATO aircraft. “He was devastated when he learned the truth.”

Every combat jettisoned fuel tank found in Serbia was turned into a claim of a complete aircraft shot down. Harrier and Tornado fuel tanks were photographed with the subsequent spin story that the aircraft crashed at point X. These point Xs were claimed to be in Serbia and not one image could be published of these crash sites.

All those Xs inside Serbia and still no images of those ‘undisclosed aircraft’

http://www.sub.net.au/~ivanovic/YUKriza/downmap.jpg

I want you you explain me this, according to Venik, this is a Mirage 2000 wreckage fragment, basicly a fragment of the outer wing, you claim, he always lies buit let`s look at this an tell me if it doesn not look like a Mirage 2000 fragment
http://www.parisairshow.free.fr/walkaround/Mirage_2000/page_02.htm
http://www.parisairshow.free.fr/walkaround/Mirage_2000/page_03.htm

http://www.aeronautics.ru/nws002/museum/gallery3.htm

according to you only two aircraft are claimed by Serbia according to venik this are pictures from the serbian air museum of a mirage 2000 wreckage fragment, the Mirage 2000 was downed in 25th May 1995 by the Serbian army of Bosnia and herzegovina
Wing section with EW sensors (passive radar warning receiver) of a French AF Mirage 2000 downed by the Republic of Srbska army SA-16 portable SAM over Pale (near Sarajevo) on May 25, 1995

Sad, sad, sad Flogger. One born every minute! When you’re at it tell the forum about all the Harrier GR.7s still missing from operations during Allied Force?

TEEJ

You know i try to be the most reasonable, when you study kills it is possible that you might make a mistake, usually if i find i was wrong i admitt it, there is nothing wrong with make mistakes, if you want to learn mathematics you have to make mistakes any thing a person does has the risk of making a mistake.

You know about past kills or debates, when Arthur and i were arguing about the MiG-23MLD abilility to use a helmet mounted sight, i was in one side of the debate why? because there were reports about it, i was wrong because at the time i did not know it because i did not read a russian article i have in one book and several russian websites and the latest book by yefim gordom confirmed it that i was wrong.

Same happened with the F-117 killed by the MiG-29, i read another russian article and the Russian air force chief admitted that the serbs only killed one F-117, okay i was wrong i admitt it, i supported the other theory because there were many reports about that a MiG-29 killing a F-117.

Now there is something you might boast about the Harrier but honestly you have not proved your point about the harrier, one is because you have not proved it with 100% inrefutable evidence about the harrier kill.

You just brought this a way to continue the debate and proof your self right, but honestly i do not agree with your theory it has many contradictory evidence.

With this mistake make i made i just learn to be little bit more careful, but i am not affraid to be proven wrong again because in life we need to learn from others and give honor to those who are right when really are right.

But because of this mistake i won`t be affraid of digging for more aircraft kill records, in life truth is the best medicine even it tastes sour

Flogger

I think someone is alluding to the alleged incident in the Iran-Iraq war in the same year, when it was claimed that an Iraqi Hind had shot down an Iranian F-4 Phantom with a 9K113 Shturm-B missile (or something similar).

It took Tom Cooper on the acig website to rubbish this claim by pointing out that the Iraqis didn’t even possess this type of missile in 1982.

When it comes to rivaling the English language on the Internet for the amount of BS, misinformation, propaganda, conspiracy theories and other manifestations of an over zealous patriot’s sense of insecurity and hurt pride, the Russian language could well come a close second, although from what I hear, the Arab and Chinese languages could well provide stiff competition.

well honestly kills are difficult to know, first like it happened just to me, you read an article thinking it says something that might be truth, you look for pictures, this time the dammed picture was a fake, i fell for it, part because the quality of the picture was bad, when we look at pictures of wreckages i feel these are the best proves, but it is important to see the quality of the picture, and try to see the best way to find out the veracity of the picture and of the claim specially in this time of digital technology and mass missinformation.

that is what i learn today 😮

Whoa, you admit you fell for it this time? That’s a first…

Not a first i also admmit i was wrong about the MiG-23 helmet mounted sight, it was not used operational, you were right when you said it was only used in experimental aircraft, recently i read and article that confirmed it, so i was wrong and you were right,