MiG-23MLDI’ve serious doubts about SIBNIA commenting on the J-10.
In fact, if you lookup SIBNIA and J-10 on the internet, you would only get Strevitel/Flogger’s posts on AFM as results :rolleyes:
What a liar the SIBNIA information was posted by AEROSPACETEC here in this thread 😀
For what its worth, the Russian SIBNIA institute, which has worked closely with China on J-11 production and assisted with J-10 as well, said:
Quote:
helping the Chinese to understand how their Su-27s actually performed and how Chinese industry could improve in its efforts to license assemble and support these aircraft. But SibNIA found itself acting as an instructor and scientific “guide” in helping the Chinese understand how to design aa new aircraft from the bottom up.
According to SibNIA, the J-10 is a melting pot of foreign technology and acquired design methods. “The aircraft is more or less a version of the Lavi”, say those Russian designers who have worked with the Chinese on this program, “but there are a number of other pieces of other aircraft that are part of the configuration that they have acquired from different sources”. Those who have observed the process of the J-10’s design also stress that the Chinese not only needed help in acquiring the building blocks of hte aircraft, they also needed assistance to synthesise all the elements they had acquired ito a cohesive design.
__________________
Paul Martell-Mead / Overscan
MiG-23MLDCall the Israeli government, Strevitel.
These are the facts:
1. Israel denies any passing of the Lavi to China,
2. the Lavi itself was a failure in Israel and was never put into production,
3. the Lavi was dependent on American technology and American parts — which China had no access to.
Golden Dragon, first you call SIBNIA because they indeed worked in China along side Chengdu in the J-10 program and they claimed the Lavi is the direct J-10 ancestor
Chaplygin Siberian Aeronautical Research Institute / SIBNIA
Polzunov St., 21. Novosibirsk-51, 630051. Russia
Tel.: (7-3832) 770156
Fax: (7-3832) 778941
Telex: 133104 ASTR SU
E-Mail: [email]SAN@SIBNIA.NSK.SU[/email]
😀
MiG-23MLDWhere is hell did Israel learn? How did Israel all of a sudden developed this aviation industry out of nowhere? China could and did learn from Russia. But Israel? Israel has neverdeveloped a full fighter on her own.
This is stupidity and “jingoism” of the extreme, Strevitel. You are claiming the world for Israel simply because you are a jew.
The Israeli aviation industry is dependent on American funding and American technology. None of which was available to China. So how in hell can the Lavi, which not even a viable design in Israel, be succesful in China?
The Israeli aviation industry is distinctly inferior even to the Chinese one. We do NOT see Israeli aircraft competing against Chinese ones on the world market.
Man call SIBNIA OR EMAIL THEM ABOUT THEIR STATEMENTS
they work there and claim the J-10 is more less a variant of the Lavi, remember they did help the Chinese in what respects the J-10 aerodynamics
Chaplygin Siberian Aeronautical Research Institute / SIBNIA
Polzunov St., 21. Novosibirsk-51, 630051. Russia
Tel.: (7-3832) 770156
Fax: (7-3832) 778941
Telex: 133104 ASTR SU
E-Mail: [email]SAN@SIBNIA.NSK.SU[/email]
MiG-23MLDWho forgot the Russians? I also added the British and the Americans and I listed the real projects that they were involved in.
Strevitel, you refuse accept any reply from a Chinese person without calling him names because you’re a racist. Because you’re a jew you can claim the J-10 is Israeli even though the Israeli government itself has denied it.
But to you a Chinese person cannot even point out that the J-10 is made in China and the Lavi was a failure that depended on American parts and subsystems that China had NO access to.
You refuse to even listen to us telling you that the Brits and the Americans were deeply involved Chinese projects in the 1980s. You insist on insulting us simply because you refuse to believe that the J-10 is anything but Israeli when all the facts goes against it.
Golden Dragon relax, no one is insulting you, you are feeling insulted but you misundestand the facts, I did not force SIBNIA to say THE LAVI IS THE DIRECT J-10 ANCESTOR, niether i forced the americans to say ISRAEL IS PASSING THE LAVI TECHNOLOGY TO CHINA
The only reason why you feel insulted is because you think i am belittling the Chinese aviation industry but it is not the case i support the Lavi account because there is evidence
you are falsifying things and claiming not fair play just to imposed your twisted version of the Chinese aviation history claiming a flaming war, no man call SIBNIA IF YOU WANT I CAN GET YOU THE TELEPHONE AND EMAIL THEM AND COMPLAIGN TO THEM WHY THEY SAID THE LAVI IS THE ANCESTOR OF THE J-10 :diablo:
MiG-23MLDStrevitel, you are grasping for straws to claim the J-10 for Israel. You’re doing it because of your ethnic pride and your idiotic stereotypes of Chinese which got you banned from CDF.
You resort to calling anyone of Chinese ethnicity as “humiliated” when they point out that the J-10 is produced only in China and it flies only in China.
I believe it is more likely that you are humiliated because we have pointed out that you are laying claims to an aircraft in China because you cannot accept that the Lavi was a failure when it got cancelled.
So let’s stop this retarded talk about who is “humiliated” and who is “living in paradise.”
The Chinese are not the ones claiming that a plane on the other side of the world is theirs just because a failed project like the Lavi reached prototype stage. The Chinese are not the ones who is claiming the X-31 and every delta-canard in the world is theirs just because the Lavi reached prototype stage.
All the Chinese say is that a plane that is produced in China and is flown only in China is Chinese.
You forget the Russians, the Russian worked in China making the J-10 and the claim the J-10 is a Lavi variant and a international program finaced by China with Israeli and Russian participation.
The J-10 is Chinese no doubt but that it was developed with foreign tech is a reality.
you conviniently forget the US claims that Israel passed the technology to China and the real fact that Israel offered their technology for the J-10 avionics.
REMEMBER THIS SIBNIA IS WORKING IN CHINA THEY KNOW BETTER THAN ME AN YOU AND THEY CLAIM THE J-10 IS A VARIANT OF THE LAVI
MiG-23MLDBtw, I do live in a Western country and am in no way affected by the “jingoism” of China itself.
Strevitel/Flogger, your idiotic attack on me was simply on my race and has nothing to do with replying to the facts that I pointed out.
To you, a person who is Chinese cannot even say a plane that is produced and flies only in China is Chinese.
But you can claim the world for the Lavi because it was made by Israel :rolleyes:
Nothing in China is Chinese but everything in Israel is Israeli (in spite of the fact that US can cancel the Lavi by withholding American parts) as well as the best things in China? :rolleyes:
No one said the J-10 is not chinese i said the J-10 was based upon the Lavi you say that is wrong not based upon logic but based upon pride you feel humilated only because China and the PLAAf recieved help or had to learn from other nations, everybody needs to go to school before becoming a teacher you have to be a student, but you are saying China never needed to go to school because you feel humilated if someone says China learnt from Russia or Israel that is Jingoism and false
In fact i can tell you China is becoming a teacher but you have to say the truth China learnt and was taught by Russia and up to a degree Israel and the Chinese aviation is full of that evidence
MiG-23MLDSo according to you the J-10 is not Chinese because it is a delta-canard and every delta canard in the world must come from the Lavi. :rolleyes:
You’re attacking any Chinese as “living in paradise” just because he says a plane that is made in China, which only flies in China and which coming out by the scores in China is Chinese?
Then what do you say of a Jew like you who is claiming that a failed project like the Lavi that cannot be made without American parts suddenly, magically becomes the J-10 in China which is embargoed from US technology?
What do you say of a Jew like you who refuses to believe that Israel has never produced a fully Israeli fighter craft? Or pretends that Israel would backstab its sole protector and friend for a few billion dollars?
What do you say of a jew like you who claims every delta-canard in the world like X-31 as a derivative of the Lavi?
What do you say of a Jew like you who rejects all facts and logic for conspiracy theories and convoluted explanations so he could somehow claim the J-10 for Israel?
So who is actually living in “paradise” and the world of jingo?
Jingoism is when a person can not see the human limits a nation has, The J-10 has Lavi ancestry, that was said not by Israel but by Russia, (SIBNIA) and the US, you can not accept that because you feel it is imposible not based upon logic but based upon pride, the PLAAF is smarter to acknowledge that in order to get advanced technology in the fastest time they need to buy it, adquire it from who ever was willing to sell it, they were smart and Humble you can not understand that because you live in the false world that China never needed help and could do it with very little help in fact you even say the J-7 is a chinese design when it is obviously a MiG-21 😉 that is pure Jingoism even falsify something truthful about the J-7
MiG-23MLDNow you listen carefully instead of going into convoluted “explanations” when the facts and common sense dictate against the Lavi going to China.
Point 1. Whether or not Israel thought the embargo would or would not last is absolutely irrelevant.
Israel would not be able to continue denying and lying if there were any evidence that the Lavi was passed to China.
There is no evidence because no Lavi ever entered China. Otherwise, somebody, somewhere would have brought this up.
The evidence would be clear cut, Israel would admit it is lying. Admit that is had backstabbed the US for a few billion dollars. And we would not be having this discussion.
Retarded excuse. The YF-23 was developed by the same country, the US, that also produced the F-22. It was one of two projects and it lost in a competion. The YF-23 was not dropped because it depended on another country.
The Lavi was not competing against another Israeli jet. Israel could not design a full-fledge fighter on its own.
If the Lavi were actually Israeli, then they would have made a production run.
If the Lavi were actually good then the Americans would have taken the design and made a production run.
Neither happened. The Lavi failed and it now sits as a dead end prototype.
And without American consent, the Lavi could not be made in China.
You are bending over backwards to suggest some link to J-10 just because the J-10 is also a delta-canard.
A “concept” in Hebrew cannot magically make Chinese plants put out American parts that the Lavi needed.
The Lavi could not be made in Israel without American consent and it certainly could not be made into a viable product in China which is embargoed from US technology.
Absolutely garbage excuse in trying to pretend that the Lavi is anything but a failure. If the Lavi ideas were any good, the US would have used the design and made a production run. Did the US kill the Harrier or the Hawk? Did it stop engine delivery to the Gripen? Bullsh1t excuses.
Exactly. Just because a plane is a delta-canard, it does not mean that it is connected to the Lavi. The delta-canard is aviation concept that was persued by many nations.
The garbage I hear from you and Strevitel/Flogger is that because the J-10 is a delta-canard, it must be related to the Lavi.
We already wrote about this. I said there is far more possibility that related work on the J-10 came from the UK or the US who were involved in the JH-7, K-8, Super 7 and Peace Pearl projects than the Israelies which has never designed a full fighter aircraft on its own.
garbage is what tigershark/bearcat/golden dragon writes about the J-10 claiming it is an indigenous Chinese design, claiming the Chinese aircraft industry by itself is better than the Israeli aircraft industry even when China does not build aircraft like the Astra IV. and build mostly copies or aircraft that include foreign tech.
The Chinese are humble enough to acknowledge they need help and assitance to develop one of the most advanced aircraft industries in the world they have designing capability but they also need foreign assistance, but you Golden Dragon you live in the of paradise of Jingoism when very likely you do not live even in China and very likely you live in a Western country
MiG-23MLDWRONG! The X-31A was an offshoot of a configuration developed by MBB as part of the TKF-90 program that eventually ended up with Germany joining Eurofighter.
And if you want to go that route, I think the first canard-delta fighter “design” was either the F-108 or the F-106X, whichever came first-and that pretty much blows away the whole “canard deltas are uber-advanced 80’s designs” aspect of any argument. The first canard delta fighter to fly was probably Kfir or the Mirage IIING. All Israel really did with Lavi was develop a backwards F-16. Which the X-31 had absolutely nothing to do with.
Now, back to the Eurofighter connection…the EAP flew four months ahead of Lavi, and design studies for the next European fighter were underway since 1979 (Lavi only beginning in 1980). So if you want to credit somebody with originating and someone copying, you’ve got it both wrong AND backwards: the EAP/EF-2000 configuration predates Lavi.
Please man
The F-16 is one of the best four generation fighters, the Lavi chose a good configuration with Delta canard as the Eurofighter did, the IAI Lavi in 1986 was a superb design Crobato and Goldendragon and many here claim because the J-10 in 2006 has a better engine it is a good design and the IAI Lavi was underpower and Israel did not want it because this design was flawed.
The IAI chose a design with delta wing canard foreplanes, single engine, single dorsal vertical fin, bubble canopy, twin ventral fins, ventral inlet and a simple fixed geometry inlet ala F-16 because that was the simplest and easiest design.
The J-10 is basicly the same but it has a variable geometry inlet.
The J-10 is a more modern design compared to the IAI Lavi it is a design improved to be faster and to have a more powerful engine.
The Lavi was cancelled due to economic reasons that have political origin, Israel has a good record upgrading aircraft and if the Lavi would had entered service it would certainly been upgraded with modern weapons and avionics.
the X-31 is basicly the same, a single engine delta wing with canard foreplanes, single dorsal vertical fin. ventral inlet.
MiG-23MLDYou are existing in complete ignorance of how that REALLY works. The radome is going to be radar-transparent, sure, to allow radar emissions to return to the array. The fun part is that the array itself is angled and not completely vertical. That means your radar beam that gets through the radome isn’t going to be reflected back to you anyway, so you’re still at a loss.
You’re also completely ignoring the LPI characteristics of the radar.
I never claimed to be an expert, the only thing i said there most be a way the F-22 can be detected, because even its own radome can not be totally stealthy, the Russians said the F-117 is detectable and the Chinese have claimed they are developing technologies that will render the F-22 visible to radar.
MiG-23MLDThe most insane and stupidest thing I ever heard.
The X-31 uses the same configuration as the Lavi so it comes from the Lavi? Are you insane? And the Rafaele and the Gripen and the EF-2000 also come from the Lavi because they have the same “configuration”?
If the Lavi was “so good”, we would see a canard-delta in the US air force we don’t.
BUT the Israelies did not invent the canard-delta. It is an aerodynamic concept that many nations pursued. The Chinese J-9 design came in the 1970s and it came before the Lavi.
So stop claiming that Israel invented everything in the world just because the Lavi reached a prototype stage.
The Lavi is a failure unlike the Gripen, Rafale, EF2000 and the J-10. You do not copy from a failed design based on American parts when you are embargoed from American parts. It is stupidity.
Why you like to distort things? The IAI Lavi was not a failure, you say that just to justify a senseless theory that it was cancelled due to the lack of good flying qualities and weaponry it had.
I will give you real aspects about the Lavi
A) The Avionics, radar and weaponry fitted to the Lavi in 1986 were more advanced than any thing the Chinese could fit to any ot their aircraft flying at the end of 1986, this includes the J-8II and the never built J-9 that you talk so much
B)Since Israel built around 60% of the IAI Lavi, it mostly could help China in the J-10 program with the airframe, aerodynamic configuration and avionics, it could not power it
C)What China could recieve from IAI was basicly Israeli technology and some Israeli technology that had an origin in american tech transfers
niether China or Israel could power the IAI Lavi clone AKA J-10 with a modern engine so they asked Russia to power it, so in fact the J-10 as all the Russian sources claim among them SIBNIA is an Israeli, Russian and Chinese product.
As a whole the J-10 is a derivative of the Lavi as the MiG-31 is to the MiG-25
Is israel an independent nation? the answers is yes
Is Israel obliged to keep agreements with foreign powers? the answer is yes
Does Israel or any Nation always keep agreements signed with foreign nations? the answer is no
MiG-23MLDIdiocy. The X-31 has absolutely nothing to do with the Lavi. It was a NASA project.
The X-31 is in production? The X-31 program ended a decade ago and was never weaponized :rolleyes:
Bearcat
You are wrong buddy the X-31 uses the same configuration the Lavi used, this proves you that the IAI Lavi for a 1986 first flwon aircraft and 1980s period shows a very advanced configuration.
Now consider if the X-31 was never put into production is not because it is not the one of best aerodynamic platforms for an modern combat aircraft but simply the US did not need a Lavi platform but an F-22 platform, basicly see that the vast majority of four generations fighters delta canard configuration designs repeat the IAI Lavi basic configuration. Why well that is one of the best design platforms so good that Chengdu copied directly from Israel
MiG-23MLDIf the Lavi was so good then the Israeli would have built it. If the Lavi was Israeli then Israel would have built the thing no matter what GD had asked.
The fact remains that the Lavi was not good and was not particularly Israeli which was why it was cancelled.
You need some “special” logic to see the Lavi as anything other than a failure. A successful aircraft would have been put into production. The Lavi was never put into production.
And now you are trying to link this failed product to the J-10 which is actually flying.
Please, you’re using conspiracy theories and BS to make you your point.
General Dynamics, a company, destroyed the Lavi? If the Lavi were any good, GD or another American company would have incorporated the Lavi design into an US aircraft. There is NO American canard-delta in production, guess why?
The Goshawk was based on a British plan and even the Kfir was brought from Israel and used by the US Navy.
These are the facts about the Lavi,
1. there is no Lavi in the Israeli air force — the ultimate mark of failure,
2. there is no Lavi derivative in the US, hardly indicative of a “superior” or even viable design that could “compete” with the US (especially since the Lavi was funded by the US, it would have every right to use it)
3. it was not even Israeli to begin since its technology, funding and the very base of the aircraft (the F-16) came from the US.
4. it was dropped because of all the above, what more proof do you want of its failure as a system?
Now tell how such an American-based aircraft could not be built in Israel but could be built in China?
Just use facts instead of using retarded conspiracy theories and racial stereotypes (“Jews would backstab anyone for money and Chinese and other orientals cannot design planes”) :rolleyes:
Guess what bearcat this aircraft is also american and is one of the most advanced aircraft in what respects maneoeuvrability, and guess what is basicly a Lavi
MiG-23MLDThat’s the stupidest thing I ever heard. The US terminated the Lavi because it was “so good” :rolleyes:
If the Lavi were a viable aircraft and if it were actually “Israeli” then Israel would have made it with or without US support.
The fact is this is a failed project and a completely non-viable product that depended on American technology and parts. It was too expensive, too dependent on American parts and too easily dropped to be anything but a failure.
The fact remains that there were only five Lavi prototypes. None of which ever left Israel.
What’s more is Israel has NEVER develped a proper warplane design of its own. The closest is the Kfir which is to the Mirage V as the J-7 is to the MiG-21. Even South Africa had its own Mirage knockoff.
All this talk about the J-10, a project that will produce 100s of planes from the Chinese aviation infrastructure (which is extremely different from the American-supplied Israeli one) and the Lavi, a failed project that depended on American parts denied to China, is just silly.
You have to jump through hoops (and use some ugly stereotypes) to explain:
1) the Israeli government’s denial of any transfer of the Lavi (“Israel is lying! It is willing to backstab the US, its protector, for a few filthy dollars. But that is the way those people are, anything for money.” :rolleyes: ),
2) how a Lavi design dependent on parts and technology from the US could possibly work with the Chinese aviation industry which is embargoed from US tech (“Parts could simply materialize out of paper designs! Don’t worry about the Chinese plants actually making the fuselage and wings and the ten thousand and one parts designed to US specifications! Those Chinese plants would miraculously spit out the Lavi’s American parts once you have the ‘design!’ “),
3) and why a “design” that is “Israeli” can’t reach production in Israel itself. (“No, no, it is a great design. The Americans stopped it because of competition. Of course, Israel needed American technology, American funding and American naivete to keep the project going. Israel also never designed a fully Israeli aircraft because of the refusal of the Americans to give it everything it needed.” )
:rolleyes:
Simply silly.
The J-10 needs a Russian engine, ukranian help for the WS-10, israeli missiles, russian and ukranian technology for radar and helmet mounted sight, so the J-10 is a failure and is not chinese, this is you same style of thinking.
First let`s go for the big question what was israeli and what was american in the IAI Lavi?up to what i have read, the main american contribution was the engine and the wings, the Israelies designed and built around 60% of the IAI Lavi, probably what they passed to China because they niether could pass an engine or the fly by wire.
You are affirming the IAI Lavi was totally built by the US therefore all the technology transfer to china was American, this is not correct in fact this is a way of claiming Israel has no aircraft designing capability.
SIBNIA claims indirectly israeli involvement, it claism that basicly the J-10 is a product of israeli, chinese and Russian experts.
You political base is also flawed, first Israel is an independent nation, can do what ever is deemed convinient for the Israeli people, the US sells weapons to any one even potential enemies of Israel
Israel has a history of industrial cooperation with china in the area of military products, has already transfered technology and even tries to sell technology even to the J-10 program in specific radar and missiles.
Any sale of israeli technology to china and Israeli intellectual property is an Israeli right. The IAI Lavi is not a US product, it was the fruit of Israeli and american cooperaton and it had Israeli and american designed technology.
therefore great part of the Lavi technology is israeli intelectual property up to what i know close to 60 % of the technology was built in Israel and designed by Israeli firms.
MiG-23MLDThe program was cancelled due to American refusal to release the engine along with every other piece of American technology the Lavi depended on.
Besides if it were unaffordable for Israel who had unlimited US aid then how in hell is the Lavi design affordable for China?
Untrue. If the US had blasted Israel for the Lavi, we would all know about it and Israel would not be denying it today.
Passing an aircraft that US had denied to Israel itself to China would have resulted in every anti-Semite in the US coming out and screaming for withdrawal of American aid to Israel. This didn’t happen and Israel is still denying it today.
There is also no shame in admitting that the Lavi is a failed project and what flies in the Chinese air force today cannot be the same aircraft that doesn’t fly in the Israeli air force.
It is no shame to admit that the Lavi, based as it is on American technology and parts, could not be made into a production plane in Israel and it certainly would have even less of chance of being made in China which has no access to US parts and technology.
??? We already know what they did with that experience: the same company designed and flew the FC-1 in short order.
The experience of the company (Chengdu) which built the J-10 had cut its teeth on the J-7.
The IAI Lavi only had 40% components made by US firms, further more a great part of that american technology was transfered to Israel, if politically Israel terminated the program, IAI continued in China the Lavi program and great part of the IAI technology was Israeli intellectual property, the Lavi was by 1980s standards one of the best aircraft so good that the US pressed to terminate it.
The fact that the Israeli IAI lavi was killed by a small margin of votes proves you that there was also Israeli opposition to the program because Israel could simply ask to other nations to get involved into the program so Israel could build IAI Lavies in Israel for the Israeli air force, nevertheless they decided to sell the technology rather than build the plane by themselves and in fact they did it but China financed the program and built the plane aka J-10.
Sign In
