MiG-23MLDIranian version of Top Gun? a video excerpt of a Iranian movie? where you can see several takes of F-14s and F-5s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YIRu3e0275s&mode=related&search=
more Iranian F-14 and AH-1 Cobras
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3a0VUqAlqeo&search=iran%20military
MiG-23MLDI think there was only one instance where a MiG-29 was’nt able to keep up with Rodriguez’s F-15 and crashed. Last month’s Combat aircraft mag has a superb article on F-15 missions over Iraq. Seems like the MiGs did lock on to the F-15s quite a few times, at considerable range. They never launched though. I was’nt suggesting that the Iraqis were on the same level as American pilots (although they are still good and their IPGW war experiences go a long way), but there is little they can do when their radar has been totally compromised, their GCI network has been destroyed and they are outnumbered 10:1 or 2. Their effort was also half hearted and Saddam had executed a lot of Iraqi AF leadership.
I was just speculating although what I meant that from my academic experience in the US, is that the professional divide between the student and instructor is somewhat more relaxed. In India, the student is always a cockroach compared to the instructor, be it school, college or armed forces.
Flogger, given the sheer amount of claims, one would wonder if Arab MiGs set themselves up in front of Israeli aircraft every time? Even if the pilots are good, there is something called fuel and it runs out quickly. Even a short engagement burns up a lot of fuel and most of these kills seem to be claimed over enemy territory. The MiG-21s in particular, can’t do more than a single, short, engagement on a short ranged escort mission, on internal fuel alone. Did they even have guns?
The K-13’s seeker quite literally has to be aligned to the exhaust nozzle of the target to be effective. The Shafrir, even if not all-aspect, was certainly more flexible than that.
Compared to the SHAR? Yes, they could engage afterburner and happily fly away but they are no where nearly as agile. The SHAR’s sustained turn rate is only slightly less than a MiG-29’s.
The sustained turn rate of the Harrier is not that it is around 14 deg/sec way behind the 23 deg/sec of the MiG-29
MiG-23MLDYes, it was a “Silsal” missile.
Through the heat of exploding bombs, the missile was lauched itself.
could be anything the image it`s too blur to distinguish what it was but the video title says F-16 and it seems an aircraft by the way ot shines but who knows?
MiG-23MLDHi,
Does anyone know a source of information for the IDF operations in Lebanon?
All I seem to find in the news is pictures of rubble, casualty figures and footage of M-109 howitsers firing.
Can anything be found on what the intended targets were, how many sorties were flown, how much ordnance dropped, which aircraft types were used…?
Have they encountered AAA, SAM’s, the SyAF?I don’t intend this to be a thread about whether the operations should take place or not. I gather there was one thread about the current crisis here but it got moved when the (not un-expected) mud-slinging got pretty bad.
Cheers, Transall.
according to this report here is a video of an Israeli F-16 shot down over Lebanon
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FjpVQAtyfUI&NR and here is the destruction of a ground target by the IDF/AF
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vyl5d09HMSc&mode=related&search=
MiG-23MLDIt is difficult to remember someone about the basics, just for the benefit of the others.
It is not honest to the readers to post “kill-data”, when reduced by an important detail like “claim” or “unconfirmed”.
I am not responsible for you lack of understanding, when you claim “excuses”!
You can not have both, to sink a ship with bombs and a high agility and fast fighter with that draggy-load to do air-combats before?!
When I am in mood, I may post the report about 1st Lt Jose “Pepe” Ardiles from Grupo 6.
Do your home-work and read the numerous pilot-reports available about the Falklands 1982.
Sens there were air to air missions flown by the Dagger either scolting or intercepting without results of course
here is a link in spanish read it http://www.geocities.com/ipmsco/Dagger.htm
MiG-23MLDDid those Nesher flew anti-shipping missions at the edge of their range?!
It seems you have problems in looking into details. Comparing total different situations will bring bring total different results!
If that Nesher/Dagger had engaged the Sea Harriers, those had to drop the bombs at first. Doing so they lost their mission at all. It is called soft-kill, when your opponent forced you to drop your bomb, before that target. Such a Nesher/Dagger is no longer a real threat for the RN-ships. The order of the Argentine pilots was to sink RN-ships!
Two questions Sens, did the Nesher carry Shafrir missiles and a Gun for dogfights besides some bombs? Was not the Nesher faster and and agile fighter?
The only thing you are doing is giving excuses, if a fighter is shot down it means it`s performance and agility was not enough to avoid been engaged, still the Nehser could have avoided the missiles and even use it`s gun.
It also means it`s avionics were unable to protect it and were over come by the enemy fighters.
Reality the IAI Nesher has been shot down, around 12 Nesher were shot down by the Egyptians in 1973 and another 11 in the Falklands by Harriers, another few were shot dwon by the Syrians and another 12 Kfir C2s in Lebanon in 1982 by the Syrians accoding to what i have read
6Oct73 MiG-21 Nesher IDF/AF*
7Oct73 MiG-17F ? Bell 205 IDF/AF*
7Oct73 104AB MiG-21MF K.al-Hamid F-4E IDF/AF
7Oct73 104AB MiG-21MF F-4E IDF/AF
7Oct73 MiG-21 R-3S Mirage IIICJ IDF/AF
7Oct73 MiG-21 R-3S Nesher IDF/AF
7Oct73 MiG-21MF ? 23mm A-4E IDF/AF
8Oct73 MiG-21MF R-3S Nesher S ’93’ IDF/AF (Karmi OK)
8Oct73 SyAAF MiG-17F M. F. al-Jindi 23/37mm A-4E IDF/AF
8Oct73 SyAAF MiG-17F M. F. al-Jindi 23/37mm A-4E IDF/AF
8Oct73 MiG-21MF ? 2xR-3S F-4E IDF/AF
11Oct73 MiG-21MF R-3S/23mm F-4E 673 (68-0525) 201Sqn/IDF/AF (Ophir/Cohen KIA)
11Oct73 MiG-21MF 23mm F-4E 640 (68-0456) 201Sqn/IDF/AF (Hayon/Arad PoW)
11Oct73 45Sqn/104AB MiG-21PFS M.el-Malt R-3S or 23mm (gunpod) Mirage IIICJ IDF/AF
14Oct73 104AB MiG-21MF N.Mussa 23mm F-4E IDF/AF
14Oct73 MiG-21MF K.el-Hamid 23mm F-4E IDF/AF
14Oct73 MiG-21MF A.Y.el-Wakeel 23mm F-4E IDF/AF
14Oct73 MiG-21MF M.Adoub 23mm F-4E IDF/AF
16Oct73 MiG-21 F-4E IDF/AF
16Oct73 MiG-17F Nesher IDF/AF (Kashtan KIA)
17Oct73 MiG-21MF Wafai 23mm Nesher IDF/AF
17Oct73 MiG-21MF R-3S Nesher IDF/AF
17Oct73 MiG-21MF R-3S Mirage IIICJ IDF/AF
17Oct73 MiG-21PF ? 23mm (gunpod) Do.27 IDF/AF
17Oct73 MiG-? ? F-4E 620 201Sqn/IDF/AF (Samok/Golan)
18Oct73 MiG-17F Explosion Mirage IIICJ IDF/AF (Note 2)
18Oct73 MiG-21MF ? R-3S+23mm F-4E 616 or 635 201Sqn/IDF/AF
20Oct73 MiG-21 Nesher IDF/AF (Katz OK)
21Oct73 MiG-21FL K.al-Hamid 23mm F-4E IDF/AF
21Oct73 102AB MiG-21MF N.Shoukry 23mm Nesher IDF/AF
21Oct73 102AB MiG-21MF ? ? Mirage/Nesher IDF/AF
21Oct73 102AB MiG-21MF ? ? Mirage/Nesher IDF/AF
21Oct73 102AB MiG-21MF ? ? Mirage/Nesher IDF/AF
21Oct73 102AB MiG-21MF D.el-Hefnawy ? Mirage/Nesher IDF/AF (Sheffer OK)
22Oct73 104AB MiG-21MF A.Wafai 23mm Nesher IDF/AF
22Oct73 104AB MiG-21MF A.Wafai R-3S Nesher IDF/AF
Source
http://www.acig.org/artman/publish/article_271.shtml
See these Nehser were shot dow by the Syrians
13Sep73 MiG-21FL Halabi R-3S Nesher S IDF/AF (pilot Simchoni) 10Oct73 MiG-21FL R-3S Nesher IDF/AF
10Oct73 MiG-21FL R-3S Nesher IDF/AF1
2Oct73 MiG-21FL M.Mansour R-3S Nesher IDF/AF
12Oct73 MiG-21FL R-3S Nesher IDF/AF 22Oct73 8 Sqn MiG-21MF al-Taweel R-3S Nesher S IDF/AF
22Oct73 8 Sqn MiG-21MF A.el-Gar R-3S Nesher S IDF/AF
22Oct73 8 Sqn MiG-21MF E.al-Masry R-3S Nesher S IDF/AF
22Oct73 8 Sqn MiG-21MF al-Taweel R-3S Nesher IDF/AF
23Oct73 MiG-21 Shakruw R-3S Nesher IDF/AF
23Oct73 MiG-21 S.Habal R-3S Nesher IDF/AF
9Jun82 MiG-21bis R-60 Kfir C.2 IDF/AF
source
http://www.acig.org/artman/publish/article_272.shtml
Even despite the fact the Argentina had good pilots, their aircraft were not as capable as the British RN Harriers, so Sens even if you have good pilots but you give them less capable weapons they will struggle and probably loose and being shoot down by the opposing forces
MiG-23MLDWhen the Me-262 have to come down near ground level to attack IL-2 protected by Yak-9s it will run into problems. Too fast for good aiming with diving Yak-9s in persuit. When Israeli Meteor did not manage to surprise in mock-combats, they were unable to bring down own Spitfire or Mustangs close to ground-level.
The MiG-25R was able to bring back recce-pictures from the well-known five Israeli ABs and Refidim in Sinai, which were pictured before several times. That hurts the proud of the IDF-AF people, but did not create real damage in those days.
Tell your last sentence to Finish fighter pilots from the Winter War for example
Air warfare is no Formula-1 race!
The MiG-25 only shows that Israel had no domestic technology to shot it down, that they needed american supplied and made F-15s to deal with it.
The question i made was can an F-15I deal with an F-22? and the answer you have avoided the answer is no, an F-15I can not defeat an F-22 as it can defeat a MiG-21 or a MiG-23.
This question proves the best air forces also make and manufacture their own equipment so their pilots can be the best in the world.
The reality few nations can made a JAS-39 type fighter, and very few can make a Eurofighter type fighter and in 2006 only one can make a F-22 type fighter.
Israel has a good air force no doubt about it but undoutedly the European nations have good pilots and the Chinese have to be good pilots too, what has allowed the Israeli pilots great success is a higher education and knowledge of science and technology than the arabs to a certain degree but they have also have been shot down and the wars they have fought have been rather brief in what respects air to air encounters in terms of the number of days they have fought
MiG-23MLDArgentina did operate radarless Mirage 5 or Nesher as named by Israel.
Equipped with ATAR 9C and Shafrir 2 AAMs, the Mirage were at Bingo fuel at the Falklands. With a bomb-load to attack ships, no AB-usage really through low fuel, no all aspect AIM-9L, no radar or radar-coverage from ships near by, when bounced by Harriers from above. There were no real air-combats in your sense, just hit and run attacks with Sea Harriers in hot persuit, which tried to prevent that attacks to save the ships from that.
The Daggers alias Nesher alias Mirage 5 had to attack ships and not enough fuel to mess with the Sea Harriers, when the Sea Harriers had to prevent that.
The Nesher is claimed as having victories early in the 1970s against arab aircraft, see
06-Oct-73 Irmi Nesher Su-7 Egypt
06-Oct-73 Irmi Nesher Su-7 Egypt
06-Oct-73 Oded Marom Mirage IIICJ Mig-17 Syria
07-Oct-73 Ran Goren F-4E Mi-8 Egypt
07-Oct-73 Oded Marom Mirage IIICJ Su-7 Syria
07-Oct-73 Eitan Carmi Mirage IIICJ ? Egypt
07-Oct-73 Eitan Carmi Mirage IIICJ ? Egypt
07-Oct-73 Oded Marom Mirage IIICJ Hunter Iraq
08-Oct-73 Adi Dagan Mirage IIICJ Mig-17 Syria
08-Oct-73 “Y” Nesher Mig-21 Syria
08-Oct-73 Asef Ben-Nun Nesher Mig-21 Egypt
08-Oct-73 Ariel Cohen Nesher Su-20 Syria
09-Oct-73 Oded Marom Mirage IIICJ ? ?
10-Oct-73 Yiftah Spector F-4E MiG-21 Egypt
12-Oct-73 Shlomo Levi Nesher Su-7 Syria
12-Oct-73 Shlomo Levi Nesher Su-7 Syria
12-Oct-73 Ami Rockach Mirage IIICJ Mig-21 Syria
12-Oct-73 Ami Rockach Mirage IIICJ Mig-21 Syria
13-Oct-73 Moshe Hertz Nesher Mig-21 Syria
13-Oct-73 Amir Nahumi F-4E MiG Syria
14-Oct-73 Amir Nahumi F-4E MiG-21 Egypt
14-Oct-73 Amir Nahumi F-4E MiG-21 Egypt
14-Oct-73 Asef Ben-Nun Nesher Mig-21 Egypt
14-Oct-73 Yiftah Spector F-4E ? ?
15-Oct-73 Yiftah Spector F-4E ? ?
15-Oct-73 Asher Snir F-4E MiG-21 Egypt
16-Oct-73 Herzl Bodinger Mirage IIICJ Mig Syria
16-Oct-73 Shlomo Levi Nesher Mig-17 Egypt
16-Oct-73 Shlomo Levi Nesher Mig-17 Egypt
16-Oct-73 Ariel Cohen Nesher Mig-17 Egypt
18-Oct-73 Shlomo Levi Nesher ? ?
Oct-73 Shlomo Levi Nesher ? ?
18-Oct-73 Moshe Hertz Nesher Mig-21 ?
16-Oct-73 Ariel Cohen Nesher Mig-21 Egypt
16-Oct-73 Ariel Cohen Nesher Mig-21 Egypt
18-Oct-73 Giora Aven (Epstein) Nesher Mi-8 Egypt
19-Oct-73 Giora Aven (Epstein) Nesher Su-7 Egypt
19-Oct-73 Giora Aven (Epstein) Nesher Su-7 Egypt
19-Oct-73 Giora Aven (Epstein) Nesher Su-20 Egypt
19-Oct-73 Giora Aven (Epstein) Nesher Su-20 Egypt
20-Oct-73 Giora Aven (Epstein) Nesher Mig-21 Egypt
20-Oct-73 Giora Aven (Epstein) Nesher Mig-21 Egypt
20-Oct-73 Giora Aven (Epstein) Nesher Mig-21 Egypt
20-Oct-73 Giora Aven (Epstein) Nesher Mig-21 Egypt
21-Oct-73 “Harry” Nesher Mig-21 Egypt
21-Oct-73 Shlomo Levi Nesher Mirage V Libya
22-Oct-73 “Avik” Nesher Mig-21 Egypt
22-Oct-73 Shlomo Lahat? Nesher Mig-21 Egypt
22-Oct-73 Shlomo Lahat? Nesher Mig-21 Egypt
22-Oct-73 “Sari” Nesher Mig-21 Egypt
22-Oct-73 Shlomo Levi Nesher Mig-21 Syria
22-Oct-73 Shlomo Levi Nesher Mig-21 Syria
22-Oct-73 Shlomo Levi Nesher ? ?
23-Oct-73 Herzl Bodinger Mirage IIICJ Mig-21 Egypt
23-Oct-73 Herzl Bodinger Mirage IIICJ Mig-21 Egypt
23-Oct-73 Ariel Cohen Nesher Mig-17 Eg
source http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Society_&_Culture/victory.html
The Mirage`s HUD shows several western fighters and that the Mirage is not a slouch, if the Argentinian air force did not achieve victories is simply the IAI Kfir and Nesher are not the best fighters in the world.
The Shafrir of course is not in the class of the AIM-9L but it proves edge in weaponry is quit important.
This is what i have read the IAI Nesher shot down aircraft but also was shot down at least in the falklands war, eleven are claimed shot down by Harriers or SAMs during the Falklands, the Kfir also was shot down close to twelve were lost in 1982 by Syrian MiGs armed with R-60MKs in the Bekka Valey.
here is a video clip from the Falklands showing some Argentinian Mirages
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T_nYB2CrdjU&mode=related&search=falklands%20war
MiG-23MLDI’m not sure how you count the Iraqi pilots as good pilots (How much training did they get per year ?? ) however your general statement is correct.
And with the F-15I , f-16 SUFA and other aircraft coupled with BVR weapons Python 5 and Dash displays the IDF has the best hardware in the region coupled with AEW system .
I can tell you the Iraqi pilots were good for the following reasons, first i have seen USAF personel acknowledging they were good and well trained, the West acknowleges iraqi victories over the Iranians and if you check the list of losses by the USAF and ALLIES and the Iraqi losses in 1991 the numbers are almost equal and this by acknowledged western sources.
Simply i will say this to you The USAF won`t invade the Chinese or the Russians because they know they can loose or dragged in a war of mutual anihilation, but the USAF will invade any nation and beat the enemy pilots of weak nations.
The Chinese pilots are well trained same is the Russians however the USAF has economic support but in the case of China they are flying their aircraft so you can expect well trained pilots and fielding better weapons they can achieve results as the Indians in cope India
MiG-23MLDREAD THE TITLE OF THE THREAD – we are not discussing wether IDF , USAF is the best air-force in the world or who can defeat who in a all out war all we are debating is a question regarding which has better trained pilots..Ofcourse NATO with all its might would defeat IDF however we arent comparing AF’s to each other but indivigual pilot training – nothing more and nothing less
Better pilots have the best results and can take on any enemy why the USAF is rate as number one? because their pilots and their equipment is rate as the best, you can have good pilots but if you have no good weapons you will be defeated and that is what has happened in Serbia or Iraq, having good pilots is not enough.
A pilot is judged as the results he/she can achieve with the weapons he or she has but the best pilots with the best results always has the best weapons and superiority in tech and numbers or at least in numbers and that is where the Chinese are rate first class
MiG-23MLDWell then that criteria Is not known the countries concerned as the IDF pilot is tasked to protect his homeland from the threats of neighbors he cant care less about what goes on in china,russia or even Europe he isnt tasked to go and defend Isreil in America , Russia etc etc You can only be judged by what is expected of you by your own people . the task of the IAF pilot is to be prepared to defend against pakistan,china or any other neighbor and not go on conduct expeditionary warfare in Iraq..I’m sorry but that is not expected from him .
can you expect Israel defeating a Giant like NATO Europe? or the full power of Russia or China? we are talikng about real power projection, Israel is powerful but you can not expect a nation of 6 million beat Giants of 300 million people or more as China or India why? because aircraft are used in conjuction with armies and navies and their total military projection.
undoutedly Israel can inflict damage but without external support it won`t beat a mega nation.
MiG-23MLDThat is precisely my point aswell, However I fail to see how we can call the USAF pilot (Or anyone for that matter ) the best pilot in the world (other then the fact that the USAF is the best cuz GW is our president 🙂 ) yes given a chance he can probably win over most with his F-22 but that is not really the point. The IDF pilot doesnt need to bother about being good enough to beat a F-22 or a PAKFA he has to be good enough to beat whatever his enemy has interms of hardware and training. The IDF (or any 1 for that matter) can fashion a class of combat pilots that would be trained for the sole purpose of being the best of the best however this isnt a Race and showmanship is absolutely uselss , one has to do the best to overcome the objectives that one is stacked up against with what is available to it . the IAF has its own set of problems , demands and their set of demands are different from those of the USAF (purely expeditionary warfare) therefore why should they be good at warfare which they dont need (like situations that USAF pilots train for eg flying cross continental sorties with B-2’s or being able to lif off a entire wing and park it at a forward location halfway across the globe) therefore what criteria do we have to judge the best darn combat pilot in the world ?? The entire question is one which has no one answer as every airforce trains with specific goals and missions in mind and everyone has different set of objectives to overcome ..
The criteria is very simple, The best pilots in the world have the best weapons and can project and accomplish the political will of their governments any where in the world against any adversary, in that category Only Russia, England and France can do that due to aircraft carriers and intercontinental bombers armed with cruise missiles
China is very close because except by India and Russia no other continental asiatic nation can invade at will any Asian country.
China can easily over run any nation in Asia using it`s full power in a blitzkrieg against any nation in Asia and proof it`s Tibet, The US can do that too proof is Irak or Afghanistan.
England fought a war in the South american seas far from England and Europe.
If China uses it`s arsenal and is not stopped by Russia or the US it can invade any country in Asia at will, the US is the same without the support of the restant big powers it can not invade other nation at will but in reality an US aircraft carrier has more power than the vast majority of air forces and you can expect them to beat any other air force and their respective pilots
MiG-23MLDAlthough i respect the post and take note of a well thought of post and agree with most of it , the point is that we are only looking at the best pilots interms of training and capability and not the best air-force . Ofcourse the best airforces of the world would have to include a good quantity quality ratio coupled with enough umph to last the course aswell as well trained pilots but we are only considering the latter part as the title of the thread suggests .
Honestly who do you think will win an Israeli pilot flying a F-15I or an F-22 pilot?
In the early 1970s the MiG-25 could fly with impunity over Israel and without US made F-15s they would not be able to defeat it.
Technology plays an element very important in aerial combat like when Germany flew Me-262 against Yak-9s
Imaging if China gets Stealth aircraft or Russia it`s I-21 Israel is not capable to defeating it without US tech, the Israeli dependance on US technology limits the skill of Israeli pilots to a good degree.
The best pilot usualy has the best aircraft and the best weapons
MiG-23MLDThe IAF cannot afford to “waste” any flying time. It is very expensive. Anyway, your question was already answered,
http://www.afa.org/magazine/july2004/0704watch.asp
The PLAAF impression of the IAF training system,
http://english.people.com.cn/200311/05/eng20031105_127684.shtml
Flying hours during training (Fighter stream),
Ab initio flying,
HPT-32 Stage-I – 65 to 80 hrs
Navigation, Aerobatics, Night Flying and Formation Flying,
HJT-16 Stage-II – 80 hrs (to be replaced by HJT-36)
Medium altitude and low altitude tactical flying, armament training, instrument flying, night flying, pilot navigation etc etc,
HJT-16 Stage-IIA – 90 hrs (to be replaced by HJT-36)
Advanced Jet training,
MiG-21 MOFTU Stage-III – 110-120 hrs (to be replaced by Hawk Mk.132)
None of the above includes time on the simulator. They need at least a years more of flying to be declared fully ops.
I would really like to see similar info for other “top” AFs.
Flying hours of course, depend on serviceability as well. When MiG-21 serviceabiliy was good, pilots were getting 250 hours per year (the highest recorded being 420+ sorties a year in Iraq) as early as 1976. And that was just using 45 min – 1 hr sorties. So a “lowly” MiG-21 pilot cannot be underestimated. Its not that all the guys flying Su-30s are green rated either. But you can imagine the improvement in flying time with IFR and the Su-30MKIs flying 10 hr missions.
No one assigns their so called “kill ratios” a shred of credibility. Check any neutral source (Fricker is not neutral BTW). However, their sortie rates during war have always been good barring the No.14 sqn in 71 which got their runway KO’ed within 48 hrs. However, they also happily seem to forget that “attrition” also has no. of sorties as a parameter. The IAF has a very favorable wartime attrition rate.
Having said that, I don’t really believe the Israeli or USAF kill ratio claims either. This is of course, in absolute terms. In relative terms, they are certainly much much more credible and accountable. The only reason I would put the IDF/AF on the top is because the IAF itself has talked about them in very good light.
No flame wars please.
From my very personal point of view there are several factors that determine how good is a pilot:
A) The aircraft a pilot flies
B) combat experience
C) tactics
D) personal skills developed as a product of individual flying talent.
The USAF and IDF/AF are supposedly the best equiped and that have the best combat records.
However flying talent is very well distribute around the world, it is almost racist to claim only the IDF/AF or USAF have natural talent i am sure there are very good Chinese, Pakistani, Polish, German, British, Brazilian, Russian, Iraqi, Italian pilots or what ever nationality we can mention.
Second the equipment is very important, skills should be mention in what respects full use of certain technologies.
If you have similar equipment we can expect similar results.
Combat experience is determined by flying combat experience and combat record, WWII has been the best example of equal technologies where a longer combat experience made the Germans undoutedly the best pilots.
The USAF in theory has the best equipment but has not have real adversaries, call Iraq, Vietnam or Panama real adversaries is quit wrong, is like claiming a bully has the best fighting skills because he is 12 years old and he picks on 4 years olds.
Real adversaries for the USAF are China, India, Russian and NATO europe (England+France+Germany) , Israel in that sense has been a more authentic winner however consider Israel the best air force in the world is another over statement because the IDF/AF is basicly an apendix of the USAF which by it self won`t be able to fight a long war without depleting it`s arsenal.
Israel`s technological edge in that sense is not the best because Japan. Saudi Arabia are other two air forces which are quit comparable to the Israeli in what respect equipment.
In WWII Germany fought a total war which niether the USAF or Israel have really fought after 1945 which lasted for 5 years in a row and where the technological advancement was tested to the fullest.
In theory the best Air Force should be the USAF undoutedly, followed by Russia or France in second place and in third England in terms of technology so we can expect the pilots of those air forces are the best equiped.
China has risen to probably the fourth best air force in the world and the chinese pilots must be quit effective also is very probable that in terms of technology Sweden surpasses Israel but in not in tactics and Israel should be lumped with Sweden or Japan in over all terms.
In combat experience all the great powers have fought wars, the USAF and the Russian air force have fought wars and use air power, England has fought wars too and to see an example the Kfir C1 was flown by Argentina during the Falkland war in 1982 and it did not achieve real kills versus the Sea Harriers proving that in overall technology the Israeli technology is not always the best, however in the Peru-Ecuador border it proved to be an effective aircraft; the argentinian pilots were good and proof is they inflicted several ship losses to the Royal Navy.
Israel has been considered the best air force due to the real fact they have defeated several enemies in short wars but those air forces lacked several aspects a real air force has and that is Self procurement and development of aerial weaponry such as aircraft or missiles, limiting their real fighting skills
Israel must be one of the best air forces but is not the top niether the second best and their pilots should be view as humans who have achieved good results against air forces that do not produce and make their own equipment and therefore lack enough technical knowledge to use a weapon to the fullest
MiG-23MLDThe only way to judge is through air combat record. Pakistanis have a very good record in air combat. They have always enjoyed a higher kill ratio than whatever adversary they’ve faced.
So have the Israelis and the Americans.
Then again, aren’t we here to praise our own country’s pilots. 😉
Its funny, to call the Israeli or american the Best XX century fighter pilots becasue you forget the title of the most shot down aircraft belongs to German WWII pilots
such as Galland and Walter Nowotny and the great Erich Hartmann or Gerhard Barkhorn, in 2006 i guess all nations must have good pilots but the equipment always plays a part many usually forget.
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