MiG-23MLDThat is precicely what We all are saying aswell. Are you so naive. Look at the entire project. the raptor project is around 75-80 billion and for a total of 183 raptors. You simply devide the no by the no and u get something that is between 350-400 depending upon the per annum defence adjustments. However does it mean that the USAF is paying 334 million per jet per year even now?? No it does not!! What it means is that the original CAP put on the raptor was 183 or 80 billion (whichever came first) and therefore the R and D cost for the sake of calculation of the TOTAL COST would have to be devided by the no. of aircraft that are planned and therefore you get the 380 million figure and If you look at that then yes evrey aircraft that would be extra from the 183 that the particular calculator took as the no demanded would cost only FLY away.
However the USAF doesnt ask its contracter to develop a fighter and then tells it that as they buy the fighter they would pay the proportionate per capita R and D cost evrey year. What the USAF does is that it gives out money for development work in advance every year. That is why billions and billioins were being spent every year on the raptor in the 90’s and early 2000’s even though not a single jet was being ordered. So this money has been paid for. If you want to calculate the total cost then you would rightly add the money up to the Fly Away cost and get this figure. If you ASK ME THE TOTAL COST OF THE RAPTOR I WOULD ALSO GIVE A FIGURE OF 380 ODD MILLION HOWEVER THE FLYAWAY COST BY DEFINITION IS THE COST OF A PARTICLUAR FIGHTER AS IT FLY’S OUT OF THE PRODUCTION LINE AND IS THE PRODUCTION COST ONLY AND NOT THE CALCULATED TOTAL COST. If the Fly away cost was the total cost then there is no difference b/w the fly away cost and production cost.
Man when you heard they built the 184 aircraft we talk ๐ now the price stays at USD $338 million dollars this was said by the own USAF so please whey they finish that number in few years from now we will see if they stick to the Cheaper price or not, remember originally they said 750 aircraft, later 339 and now only 183 yes Bring_it on, one thing it is say it will be cheaper and another is in 2015 buy F-22Cs at a USD 115 million a piece, we will see.
MiG-23MLDbring_it_on, just give up. MiG-23MLD has managed to ruin another thread with his stubborness and is incapable of listening to anyone. No supports his cause and yet he still keeps going in the wrong direction. We’ve told him over and over again but he’ll never get it. I’d just leave it alone.
He’s shown us what he can do in the F-14 vs MiG-23 and that led to a lock. The more you tell him, the more non-sense will come out of it.
hehehehehehehe there is one last resort when you can not prove the USD $338 per copy price written in the USAF webpage is not the wrong one, yes gang togather i deny togather a reality :rolleyes:
Until there are no further additional orders of the already 183 F-22s, the price stick in USD $338 a copy ๐
MiG-23MLDDoesn’t matter what the numbers are. The cost to build one NOW is under $130 million. You can try to twist things around anyway you like but that fact remains that R&D has been paid for.
http://dc01-cdh-afa03.tranguard.net/AFA/Reports/2006/Month06/Day27/1050magic.htm The $338 million per copy cost for the first 183 fighters includes all โsunk costs.โ Beyond the 183, a single F-22 currently would cost about half that, around $137 million. And, the cost is still going down, says Lewis, making the average flyaway cost for the next 100 Raptors about $116 million per aircraft
See this Beyond the 183, a single F-22 currently would cost about half that, around
So now it cost USD $338 millions
MiG-23MLDSubassemly basically means the construction of the aircraft and the assembly of the parts. For example some parts are assembled like the wings etc while some are procured out right like the engine , radar etc etc.
so whay are the saying they need additionall USD $1.4 billions and that subassembly with no aircraft requested?
http://armedservices.house.gov/schedules/4-26-06WeldonOpeningStatementMark.pdf
add up 1.4 USD billions plus USD $2.9 and you get the real price of the Raptor
http://dc01-cdh-afa03.tranguard.net/AFA/Reports/2006/Month04/Day27/1060F22.htm
USD $4.3 billion dollars for 20 F-22 Raptors by the way read the article it says the same thing i told you about inflation.
MiG-23MLDNo it is not. What you have taken is the total contracted amomount and devided it by the no of aircraft contracted for. This isnt a scientific way of getting an accurate assesment. The USAF,GAO and others have to calculate it sceintifically and TESTIFY under oath and they dont simply devide the annual budgetted to the no. budgeted for as that includes many other things which are a part of the program such as modifications,maintance equipment,training setups,depots,hanger modernizations in preparation for the new aircraft. These costs arent in the cost of the Fly away. Furthermore as more and more batches go into a particular wing the cost comes down. For example the last batch for langley will cost around 110 million however the very next one that goes to Elmendorf will cost close to 160-170 million (if we simply use the method u are using) as Elmendorf has to also buy support equipment and upgrade facilities. Same thing with the last Elmendorf batch and the First HILL batch.
For example the Fy07 budget calls for 2.9 billion for 20 raptors. At this if you simply devide by 20 u get a per unit cost of 145 million (a good 35 million short of 180 million) however if you read the budget document it says the following –
The last line gives it up. There is money which is also being paid to various contracters as advance procurment. What is this advanced producrment? You can easily look it up when the full document is released however it ranges from everything to advance payment for maintaince depots, hanger mods aswell as advance payment for spares which may be tools or even extra engines , stealth treatment devices , ground ops training dummies etc etc.
http://dc01-cdh-afa03.tranguard.net/AFA/Reports/2006/Month02/Day07/1030verdict.htm
Briing_it_on
I can not argue about that proposed budget, however there are things unclear to me, first they say Subassembly it can mean construction, production or building in that context however assembly means put togather parts already built, subassembly means?
I read that USD $2.9 billion has no aircraft requested read this
http://armedservices.house.gov/schedules/4-26-06WeldonOpeningStatementMark.pdf
after they say they requested an additional USD $1.4 billion dollars
So i guess the F-22 price is around USD $200 since subassembly does not mean any aircraft requested
MiG-23MLDA single house is a bad example, as the price of the house you’re buying above is just the contruction costs.
Think of it this way: You take some 18 year old kid out of high school, pay for him to go to college to become an architect, pay for him to start up his business, and pay him to design a house for you and only build 1 house. In that case then yes, the total cost (including the already sunk cost of schooling, equipment and services) would go directly into the cost of that one house. Now, if you took the same plans for that house and built 300 more, you don’t have to pay the cost for schooling, equipment and design each time do you? That first house may have cost you several millions of dollars, but each of the next 300 houses built exactly the same would only cost 100K.
Every year inflation increases price to any good, the F-22 is not the exception, also each new batch of F-22s are more advanced so their price goes up
The F-16s in 2006 cost more than what it costed in 1976
MiG-23MLDUnit cost to build an F-22 today is less than $130 million and will only get lower. Get over it.
Reducing the numbers of aircraft purchased means it is not cheap and the best and most accurate figures are USD $ 180 millions
MiG-23MLDListen If the USAF deceides to order another 500 F-22’s Today the Fly-Away cost would also come down significantly however that would be due to economies of scale and the industry base getting a larger contract therefore spreading out profit however It would also dilute the R and D over a larger no. so the Figure of total cost would also come down as the R and D no. is fixed and paid for so if someone wants to do a hypothetical calculation there would be a larger no. to devide by.
LET ME PUT IT THIS WAY-
if you were USAF def. sect and you had to go to the president who had asked you what would it cost to buy 200 more F-22’s . Would you go and tell him that each one costs 400 million so 200 would cost aprox 80 billion or would you say that it is costing 120 million so the extra 200 would cost only 24 billion?? The answer would definately be 24 billion as That is the reciept LMA will give you for those 200 raptors . Why not 80 billion?? because of the fact that the 280 million of the 400 million was paid for over the last decades by the US taxpayer and therefore he doesnt have to pay it again thus the Taxpayer only needs to pay the 120 million to get the fighter produced. Even if the US taxpayer doesnt buy a single raptor (instead of 183) he has still paid that 280 million per unit of raptor (if the planned purchase was 183) and recieved no raptor . Yes this cost looks very hefty but look at the size of the DOD defence budget and 2-3 billion per year for developing a AD fighter is only pennies compared to the entire DOD budget of 500+ billion per annum,And procuring 20 odd raptors at 2-3 billion is pennies per annum compared to the dod’s 70-80 billion dollar annual procurment budget,Infact the DOD’s fighter procurment budget as a percentage of the annual budget is lower then it was with the 4 th gen fighters as the no.s procured arent as much as the 2 fighter procurments at the moment are the F-22A and F-18E/F.
๏ผขring_it_on
I do understand that if you buy a house for USD $100000 dollars, and you pay first USD $40000 dollars of Initial deposit (R&D in the case of the F-22 Raptor) and later you pay 180 monthly payments of USD $ 333.33 dollars ( one hundred eighty F-22 Raptors with a price of USD $190 million dollars) at the end the House costed to you USD $100000 dollars (the US tax payer paid USD $62 billions) of course you can give cheaper monthly downpayments of 100 dollars ( you buy more F-22).
However consider inflation raw materials and salaries and that will increase the F-22 program price ( you add modifications to your house)
Nevertheless inflation and escalating costs have increased the F-22 costs and in order to stick to a budget they have reduced the numbers of F-22 they plan to purchase.
At the moment as a whole program for the US taxpayer the F-22 costs around USD $390 million dollars a piece but it has a unit price of USD $ 190 million dollars.
Unless there are foreign large orders, the US taxpayer will still pay large amonts of money a piece to purchase the F-22
A foreign nation can buy Su-35BM and with the same money the US tax payer financed a F-22 it will buy more aircraft so in that case the kill ratio in dollars will be unjustify and more important if any foreign nations achieves a way of detecting F-22 in this case China, well advanced and cheap J-10s or Russian MiG-29OVT in the Russian case are still affordable systems with good deterrement capabilities
MiG-23MLDAgain this is my Last attempt and After this I am done playing teacher!!!
Look you are right but what are you trying to computate the total cost of the raptor or what the raptor cost now??? Because if you look back at this thread you said that if a SU-35 country goes to war with the US now or in the future then the Su-35 that it can get to offset attrition will be 10 times cheaper then what the USAF will pay for the F-22 to offset its attrition. Now it is completely stupid to count R and D cost into attrition replacement or even Production versions as that cost has allready been paid for by the USAF taxpayer AND IS NON-RECURENT. If the USAF now orders 200 more raptors they wont go back and start to Develop the raptor all over again and pay the 40 odd billion in development all over again. What they’d do is just pay the 110 odd million in production cost per fighter .. Do you get my point or is it imposible for you to understand what every other logical person on this forum understood 2 days ago?? Same would go for the country that wants more Su-35’s J-10’s or whatever they will just go to the Line and tell the manufacterer to make more aircrafts and will pay him The Fly Away cost only.. The Question of R and D being paid by an export customer/customers isnt even a question here as it is immaterial as the money has alleady been paid for by the US taxpayer and needent be paid again.
WOULD YOU EVER GET THIS???? or is it just imposible for you to grasp the concept of total cost and Fly Away cost ?
Ay Bring_it_on
You are the one who does not grasp it! i do understand what means fly away price what happens is you conviniently ignore a real fact
The F-22 productions numbers have been reduced, reduced from a planned number of more than 700 aircraft to less than 200 aircraft, now you have a reduction of more than 70% of the original number
there has been an increase in the price of the whole programs due to inflation, in fact originally the Raptor was suppose to be priced at less than USD 100 million dollars
The F-22 has increase it`s price from the original budgeted cost and since the aircraft has reduced numbers and has not yet been cleared to Export the F-22 whole program cost more close to USD$ 390 million dollars a piece
in fact the fly away price is more expensive than the originally planned
If the F-22 is cleared for export and the numbers purchased increase you can say the dammed aircraft is cheaper, but that is not the case.
Why do you think it is needed to reduce numbers? yes you guess right INFLATION, yes dammed inflation prices go up because of inflation and further modifications and upgrades increase price if you want to keep a budget therefore you have to reduce numbers
The first budgets were made in the late 1980s but R&D cost have increased due to inflation and do not correspond to 2006 prices
MiG-23MLD.
Are you not getting it!!! Fly Away isnt something that I have just made up by myself but is a figure that is used by the defence world to accurately predict production cost for years.
Again you have given the answer yurself. The US taxpayer is no longer paying the R and D cost of the raptor as it has ALLLREADY DONE IT YEARS AGO DURING THE R AND D PHASE OF THE PROGRAM!!! what part of this do you not comprehend??? Are you really that slow?
here is the difference
Total Cost = cost of the jet to develop , produce and deliver
Fly Away Cost = the cost to produce the jet only
At this time in the raptors life the USAF is only paying its suppliers the Fly away cost as R and D has been paid BY THE US TAXPAYER years ago during the R AND D phase of the program. DO U NOT UNDERSTAND OR IS THAT YOU DONT WANT TO UNDERSTAND?? Please tell me so I can stop wasting my time trying to fashion an intelligent discussion!!
Bring_it_on
It laughable the way you pretend to give a cheap price to the F-22, the F-22 is for the Domestic market not for export so even if the unit price is USD$ 190 million you have to add up what was paid by the same taxpayer, yes the same tax payer has to pay USD $62 billions to built one hundred eighty F-22s, it is the same for the US tax payer does not matter if the US tax payer now pays USD $190 million dollars, the question is the whole program will cost USD $ 62 billion dollars and you are already saying the USAF will get 180 aircraft so the unit price is USD $ 390 million dollars
Because there is only one confirmed customer and that is the USAF and only one payer and that is the US tax payer
MiG-23MLDAGAIN YOU ARE FINDING IT REALLY HARD TO COMPREHEND!!! If you want the all over cost of a fighter then yes take it into account however at this instance where you are trying to say that if a country with su-35 goes to war with the USAF it wont matter as the R and D has allready been spent and is a non-recurring cost. For example –
You are a military defence sect. You have a particular weapon and that weapon costs 30 billion to develop (assume) and you develop it over a 10 year period and after that period you end up with a product that is developed and ready to be mass produced. Now the Developer has been paid his 30 billion to develop it and so as far as he is concerned you could not buy a single jet and he’d still get (has allready gotten it over the 10 year period @ rate of 3 billion every year) 30 Billion in development. You are smart and decide that that particular peice of military hardware is worth using and so You decide to produce it and ask the producer to go ahead and make a hot production line and come out with 20-30 peices every year. Now the producer goes out does his research , buys his machinery and comes back to you and says listen It will cost me aproximately 50 million per peice to develop this hardware. You check his figures and decide that you will give him a 8 % profit and say ” OK i will buy it at that 50 million ” and order 30 units every year. No that cost that is 50 million is what the FLY AWAY cost of that aircraft is going to be – nothing more and nothing less. You didnt have a contract with the Producer/developer that he will develop the aircraft himself and as u order the jets you will pay him per capita development cost – So if you procure 10 jets or procure 1000 peices the ammount of R and D is fixed at 30 billion and has been paid for allready in the past therefore it needent be paid again unless ofcourse you continue to develop it further through upgrades. Now you go to war with china or any other country for that matter that has a similar but less capable hardware which is cheaper and you enter a war of attrition. Now you decide that you need more of this hardware to win the war and therefore you decide to order upto 500 more examples , Now those jets that you order will only cost you 50 million to buy and nothing more as you have paid the developmental cost years before and therefore needent pay it over and over again. So what does it cost you to buy a jet ???
Same thing is with the F-22A raptor. What the USAF is paying is just the fly away interms of the jet (remember every Lot includes other things aswell however we are concentrating only on the jet and its cost) as they needent pay the extra developmental money now as they have done it in the past and it is NON-RECURRING. You are correct that the USAF has paid this money and it has cost them a lot however that has happened and therefore cannot be included in the FLY AWAY COST – which is the cost of the jet as it comes out of the line. Say the raptor total costs 400 million a peice and the USAF buys not a single raptor, even then the Raptor still costs them 300 million as they have allready paid those 300 million in R and D in the past. So when someone like COUNTER PUNCH , POGO , GAO puts the raptor at 400 million they do so as trying to push an agenda as had they been only educating the public and been responsible they would have also mentioned that 300 odd million per jet has allready been spent on the raptor and cannot be taken back as it was what cost to develop the aircraft and the AF is only paying that remaining 100 odd million to actually produce what they spent 300 million to develop.
Again a great economic lecture :rolleyes: now according to you the fly away price does not include R&D expenditures yeah yeah you lecture is quit brilliant considering the F-22 Raptor is for the export market uhmmmmmm :rolleyes: considering that the US Tax payer is not paying the R&D.
You also include the inflation do not you?
also you include the delays and cuts do not you?
please Bring_it_on your mathematics remind me mathematics crook politicians use ๐
MiG-23MLDHaydy Ho, MIG-23MLD. Dont belive i`ve comment any of your post`s yet,
sence I`m new here at AVF. But here we go :
The news in your first post was a little outdated. 1 year old. But the other one seems pretty new. 1,3b/4=325.000.000
That`s a lot of cash… Don`t think thats the flyaway cost. I dont know what
they mean by program costs. Let`s say it`s the full price. To get the flyaway
cost I`ll divide it by the standard 2,5 and get 130.000.000.
Okey. I would think this is the price of one Raptor. Any opinions, everybody :confused:
you are forgeting thisF-22 RaptorโProgram costs increased 2.1 percent from $61.3 billion to $62.6 billion, because of the purchase of four additional aircraft, extension of procurement to Fiscal 2012, and increases in initial spares buys.
see date June 2006 Vol. 89,
see source http://www.afa.org/magazine/June2006/0606world.asp
MiG-23MLDIf you want the highest calculated price then just devide the 180 odd by 80 billion (CAP) and you get 400+ million a pop . That figure is so obscure as it tells you absolutely nothing about the raptors production. Open Up your mind..If a person goes around and tells the taxpayer that we should halt raptor production cuz each extra one costs 400 million he would be outrightly lying..as The R and D of that 400 million is non-recoverable so FLY AWAY is the correct cost at this stage which is over 100 million at the moment .
You are a great economist so that 80 billion appear and disappear by Magic hehehehehehe ๐ :rolleyes: who pays that money?
MiG-23MLDDo you know what R&D is? You’re either incredibly stupid or have an agenda. (Seeing how this topic has been addressed about 90 times on this board) It doesn’t cost $339 million to build an F-22. They’re about $137 million these days and some sources list as low as $116 million.
hehehehehehe
you are the on who has an agenda i am using American and western sources and this seems quit logic
see
April 4, 2006
Basic Facts About the F-22
Is the F-22 Fighter Worth the Price?
By WINSLOW T. WHEELER
The U.S. Air Force claims its newly operational F-22 aircraft is a world class fighter–worth its $330 million price tag. Few, if any, have seriously questioned the F-22 as an expensive, but spectacular, aircraft.
* The original F-22 acquisition program, which officially started in 1986, intended to produce 750 aircraft for over $90 billion at no more than $149 million per aircraft.
* The current F-22 acquisition plan is to buy 183 aircraft for $65 billion at $355 million per aircraft.
* According to Government Accountability Office (GAO), as the force size shrank by 75 percent; the cost to develop the F-22 doubled.
* The original plan scheduled the first aircraft to be operationally deployed in 1996. Nine years later, the first squadron of 12 aircraft was declared “initially operationally capable” in December 2005.
*As of 2006, 63 aircraft have been delivered to the Air Force; 44 more are in production. Between 2008 and 2010 the Air Force wants to buy its final 60 in a “multiyear” procurement. Paying for this would start in 2006; the total cost would be $10.5 billion.
* Last week, the GAO and the Congressional Research Service (CRS) testified to the Senate Armed Services Committee on the nature of this final “incrementally funded” purchase.
* According to the Air Force, the F-22 will achieve “air dominance” against other fighters by virtue of its stealth, super-cruise, advanced avionics, and exceptional maneuverability.
* Effectiveness, survivability, deployability, and sortie generation were tested by the Air Force in the F-22’s “Initial Operational Test and Evaluation” in 2004. The test report is not available, but the Air Force states the F-22 was “overwhelmingly effective” but only “potentially suitable.” The GAO noted: “Officials rated the sortie generation area as unsatisfactory. Problems were noted in aircraft reliability and maintainability, including maintenance of the aircraft’s critical low observable characteristics.”
* The Air Force told the GAO that these problems would be fixed before the F-22 went operational in December 2005. No new GAO report on this subject is yet available.
Note: These performance issues, and others not yet addressed by the GAO, CRS or others, will be addressed at a briefing on the F-22 sponsored by the Straus Military Reform Project of the Center for Defense Information. The briefing will feature:
Pierre Sprey was a leading member of a group, known as the “fighter mafia,” who conceived what are today America’s most successful air combat aircraft, the F-16 and A-10. Sprey also had a key role in the origins of the F-15 and F-18.
James Stevenson is the author of books on how to, and how not to, design and buy combat aircraft, using the Navy’s F-18 and its failed A-12 as examples. He is also the former editor of the Navy Fighter Weapons School’s “Topgun Journal.”
This briefing will occur at 10:00 a.m. on Friday, April 7, at 1779 Massachusetts Avenue, N.W. in the Shotwell Room.
Winslow T. Wheeler is the Director of the Straus Military Reform Project at the Center for Defense Information. He spent 31 years working for US Senators from both parties and the Government Accountability Office. He contributed an essay on the defense budget to CounterPunch’s new book: Dime’s Worth of Difference. Wheeler’s new book, “The Wastrels of Defense: How Congress Sabotages U.S. Security,” is published by the Naval Institute Press.
* The current F-22 acquisition plan is to buy 183 aircraft for $65 billion at $355 million per aircraft.
source:http://www.counterpunch.org/wheeler04042006.html
Check the 65 billion program is close to what other sources claim as the development program ๐
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