Another source F-22: Super Stealth, super fast, super costlyLANGLEY AIR FORCE BASE, Va. – The gold-tinted canopy closed and a wave of apprehension swept over Air Force pilot Wade Tolliver as he started the jet engines for his first flight in an F-22 Raptor. RELATED
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The mission: Air dominance

” I was scared I’d scratch the jet,” Tolliver said.
The lieutenant colonel, a veteran of more than 2,000 hours in jets, had reason to worry. A mistake could be very costly. The plane he sat in cost $339 million.

The Raptor is the Air Force’s new

source http://www.timesdispatch.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=RTD/MGArticle/RTD_BasicArticle&c=MGArticle&cid=1137834444308

Raptors are being built for around $100 million USD right now. That’s due, according to Lockheed, to changes in the manufacturing process. The first couple of batches of Raptors were way expensive, sure; that’s because the development costs were spread over those early batches as they were the only solid orders on the books at the time.

The fixed price is USD $187 million see

According to Pentagon budget documents, the F-22 Raptor program’s FY 2006 budget is $4.22 bilion (FY05: $4.62 billion), in return for 24 production F-22As and 1 test aircraft (FY05: 24/0). The procurement budget is $3.77 billion (FY05: $4.09 billion), and the RDT&E budget is $448.2 million (FY05: $530.2 million).
4620 millions divided by 25 gives you a fixed price of 187 millions a piece

however the price continues scalating June 15/06: A $187.1 million firm-fixed-price contract modification to provide for an extension to the advance buy period of performance from June 2006 through September 2006, and increases the outlay amount. This action supports F-22A Lot 7 production. Work will be performed at Lockheed Martin Aeronautics Co. in Marietta, GA (33%) and Fort Worth, TX (35%); and Boeing Information and Space Defense Systems, Aircraft and Missile Systems group in Seattle, WA (32%). Work will be complete in October 2009 (FA8611-06-C-2899/P00005)

source http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/2006/06/f22-raptor-fy-2006-procurement-events-updated/index.php

another stimate

Of that $541 billion, Speeter sharply criticized the federal government for spending $72 billion on buying what he called outdated Cold War weapons such as a $260 millon F-22 fighter jet.

source http://www.yaledailynews.com/articlefunctions/Printerfriendly.asp?AID=28458

The raptor’s cost is put at above 300 million if you take into account the development however when we are comparing attrition then the fighters development cost becomes non-redundant so its only fly-away therefore the price of 100-110 million a peice is more acurate in this scenario as it is more representative of the flyaway cost..You can PM Harry ,or some other Indian members and ask them how they came up with the 50 million of the Su-30MKI which also BTW include western harware aswell. The su-35 isnt in serial production so the Russian sources that put 38-40 million arent based on an actual calculation of an actual existing production line for the Su-35 and therefore is what the russians expect it to come out to same as the USAF expected the raptor to come out to 60 million a pop however the russians should do better as things are cheaper there. Even if we take 40 million for the su-35 and 100 million for the raptor it is only slighgly more then 2.5 Su-35’s per F-22A and not 10:1 that you were saying.

To put it at a 1:4 level the su-30MKI would need to cost 20-25 million dollars which I think is highly unacheivable.

Again there have been statements made before about it flying,about it being cancelled,about a single PAKFA,about 2 aircrafts , About India wanting to join and nothing really has come out as concrete fact . Meanwhile the F-22 is flying and the F-35 is being slowly but surely being put into place as is evident from the pics and videos LMA releases evry 14 days to show progress.

Please bring_it_on

you calculations are totally overboard, let`s see why?

You claim a 100 million price for an aircraft that is built in lesser numbers than planned.

The F-22 cost of more than 300 millions is the correct because some one has to pay for the development and that is the US Tax payer, that money has to be paid.

You are claiming the F-22 cost almost as much as the Eurofighter but the numbers the US buys are more than three times less :rolleyes:

Europe builds more than four times more Typhoons and Rafales and you give a price tag of 100 million for an aircraft that less than 200 will be built, like if the military cuts do not make more expensive the aircraft! :rolleyes:

Consider the European military budget combined is much more smaller than the US` and remeber only five nations are buying Eurofighters and Rafales in large numbers.

If they have reduced the numbers is because the aircraft is too expensive 😉

I have been saying this all Along and the pilots themselves (raptor drivers) Know this and this is the sole reason why the F-22 has TVC and Is in the process of getting HMD and HOBS. Once it gets that then everything is even and we are left with an ugly ugly situation of 2 very expensive fighters (raptor and PAKFA) going at each other with no certainity of who will finish on top. That is the essence of top quality WVR . You can be near perfect but when the odds are like that (raptor vs Su-30) the outcome might still be against you. That is why WVR has to be avoided to get better kill ratios. I think you’ll agree to this.

That is interesting was the Su-37 ever planned to have French,indian and Iserili avionics and weapons???

For sure the su-30MKI coupled with the IAF pilots is the best of the best. A real benchmark for everyone else to stack up against as far as WVR is concerned.

When you get into that region everything changes. The raptor would also be accompanied by E-8’s and Dedicated jamming aircraft such as E-18’s and that combination of overwhelming support that the USAF/USN can throw at the opponent is unmatched.

Bring_it_on

The Su-30MKI and Su-37 are the same aircraft, the Sukhoi`s terminology and nomenclature makes it little bit difficult but in essence the Su-37 and Su-30MKI are T-10M subvariants and all are called Flankers.

See the fact both aircraft have canards and thrust vectoring, both are T-10M subvariants
compare

These two aircraft are the same aircraft with the only difference of nomenclature and the real fact one is a single seat and the other is a twin seat the same as the F-15C and the F-15E

picture source http://www.airwar.ru/fighternow.html

Yes and I being of indian origin (half indian) and a keen follower of IAF would know this!! So whats yur point???

And How would your Su-35BM be superior to the F-22A…Please state yur point a little carefully.

This has been discussed to death months ago and alert 5 even has pilots from the USN and USAF discussing this. Also go read up on the F-16.net for more information. My source on this is a pilot who isone of the most senior F-22 pilots and he said that there are actually 6 HUD shots that he has seen of f-18’s , F-16’s and F-15’s killing Raptor in dogfights so it isnt a big deal, He also has some 40 odd HUD images F-22’s gunning all these jets down. He is really impressed how the raptor compares with these fighters in dogfighting and love it to death and cant wait for them to get HMD’s and 9x and be at par with the best in the WVR buisness .

Again How is your Su-35 going to be better in BVR,signature,detection,avionics,supercruise and in time (another 3 years ) the F-22A would have taken care of its shortcommings in WVR ie. lack of HMD/HOBS.

Bring_it_on

I am aware the F-22 is at this moment the best overall fighter, nevertheless the Su-35 and MiG-29OVT at dogfight are not easy targets, there is one thing we have to say this, any fighter with thrust vectoring nozzles, HMS and advanced missiles has chances against the F-22 at within visuall range combat.

The Su-35UB is basicly a Su-30MKI, the Su-30MKI is an equivalent of the Su-37.

If you have a Su-30MKI, it is in fact a twin seat Su-37.

A HMS gives you the ability of overcome maneouvrability shortcomings, nevertheless the Su-30MKI has good agility and good missiles.

My opinion about the effectiveness of the F-22 is only rules in BVR combat but if i were a F-22 pilot i would avoid a dogfight with a Su-30MKI, why? because it can shoot me down.

At very shot range the Su-30MKI has an IRST system, good agility, a HMS, good missiles and thrust vectoring so it is not inferior in agility and in dogfight combat capability.

In BVR combat well that is different, the Su-30MKI has disadvantages that only the I-21 can fix.

Found this few minutes ago:

“It had to happen some day. I guess the pilot of this Super Bug is pretty proud of himself. Here are two HUD captures from a VFA-11 F/A-18F acting as Red Air against an F-22A
Looks like the Raptor found himself in front of a slow Super Hornet, which is not where anybody wants to be. The F-18F is at 15K feet, 20 degrees AOA, Mach 0.36, pulling 1.7G, with a peak previous G of 7.6 for the fight. HUD shows he has squeezed the trigger. It’s not exactly what you’d call “comfortably saddled up in his six” or anything like that — it’s clearly a high deflection shot — but it does show the Super Hornet can point its nose when it wants to.”

That is a Super Hornet however the Su-35 must be better here is a report about the fact Sukhoi plans to start production of the Su-35 in 2006 according to Mihail Pogosyan Head chief of Sukhoi.

here is the article:Российский самолетостроительный холдинг “Сухой” планирует начать производство опытных образцов самолета Су-35 в 2006 году, сообщает “Интерфакс”.

he claims it will be build at Konsomolsk on amur (KnAAPO)

Самолеты будут строиться на Комсомольском-на-Амуре авиационно-производственном объединении им. Гагарина (КнААПО).

These will be for the Russian Air Force and by 2009 they will be ready for export

sourcehttp://lenta.ru/news/2005/10/04/su35/

Here is the original source from the official Sukhoi company webpage

http://www.sukhoi.org/news/smi/?id=398

That F-117 Shoot Down in 1999 was a fluke, believe me (I do have sources a lot more reliable than AFM speculation and doggy Russian web sites, unfortunately for all you F-117 lovers I cannot tell the whole story thanks to my sources still being classified).

Yes they are classified so your sources are not not doggy? hehehehehehe

YEs at the moment the F-22A doesnt have HMS however it is a spiral prgram and they made a descision to not use the JHMCS and use the more advanced JSF-HMD which pushed the integration by 2 years and brought it into conflict witht he SDB integration which got the preference so the HMD integration is due in 2008-09. In tests against HMS equiped F-18’s and F-16’s the F-22A has been less impressive but we only have to wait 3 years to see that sorted out.

Yeah the russians have TVC for a long time and even have a operational fighter with it which was the first however U were talking about TVC equiped J-10’s and I’ve yet to see one in operation where as i see a scores of TVC equiped raptors in operation.

By the time there’s a Mig-29OVT armed with the R-74 in operation with substantial no.s the raptor would have long perfected tactics on TVC/HMS/HOBS usage.

The reason why I support the raptor is because the enemy has gotten better and we need to take that extra step to regain the advantage..

Yes they do have successes at a higher rate then the ones With F-15’s w/o HMS. Mostly F-16’s and F18’s simulate HMS and 9x and they have been succesfull that is why the raptor is getting HMD.

Again when its HARD FACTS vs SPECULATION ” I and many other logical people would choose the former to the latter.

No it is not expeculation, a F-117 shot down by a second rated air force that had inferiority in numbers and equipment, RAM wing fragments sent to Russia, the physics of STEALTH FIRST PUBLISHED IN RUSSIA BY A RUSSIAN SCIENTISTS, and statements of the Russian air force to fly their fifth generation in one year time. A Czech radar claimed to detect stealth aircraft and 3D engines made in Russia for the Indian perpective order of MiG-35.