They dont test only F-15 but those F-15’s simulate everything from a su-27 to a su-35 whilest the f-16’s simulate mig-29’s and m2k’s..they make up for the performance difference between aggressor and simulated aircraft by offsetting it with performance barriers for ex. a higher cruising speed is simulated by letting the F-15 use AB’s fand by limiting the raptors supercruising capability to much below capacity. I can give u an indepth detailed account on how evrything is acheived if you PM me.

That is your personal opinion and you are entitled to it. I base mine on actually talking to pilots who fly the raptor day in and day out and with the people that go up against it aswell as many people i know that work on the aircraft or have worked on it for years.

so those claims are all bogus. Because the F-16 and F-15 all have extremely good Kill ratios (100’s of aircraft shot down) then they’d definately be superior to the Su-35 or Mig-29OVT which hasnt really shot down anything in combat.

Oh yeah the chinese .. Anything worth talking about that has come out of that country (anything at par with say the F-16E/F , F-18E/F , F-15E let alone F-22 or F-35) . You seem to be supporting the fact that china the underdog will come out and quickly outdo the US defence insdustry and make US technology redundant..DREAM ON!!!

Oh yeah great lets all beleive the transparent Chinese Defence establishment even though they dont have anything to test their “SO CALLED” high tech detection devices that remotely resembles a F-117 let alone a F-22A. Not to mention the Fact that the survivability ratio for the F-117 is almost spectacular interms of sorties flown for aircraft lost to a2g And those for the B-2 Are Perfect interms of thousands of sorties flown w/o a single loss of aircraft (oh wait you beleive that there is a massive cover up and scores of B-2’s were shot down)

So If you were a DOD general u’d give yourself the assurance that china wont be a military giant which might pose a threat cuz they have 1.2 trillion dollars of loan papers…Cumon Flex be a little realistic. ANd those loan papers are something like less the 10% of US annual GDP.

Bring_it_on

Do the F-22 have mock combat with F-16s VISTA/MATV or F-15s ACTIVE?

Do the F-16 VISTA/MATV are armed with Python IV?

The MiG-29OVT is basicly a F-16 VISTA/MATV armed with Python IV! 😎

Have the F-22 had mock combat with Rafales Gripens or Eurofighters armed with Meteors?

The MiG-29M is not the fourth generation ++ MiG-29OVT.

Do you think a X-31 armed with Python IV can not beat a F-22 in mock combat at WVR?
See the J-10 fitted with a thrust vectoring nozzle is basicly a X-31

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/x-31-EC94-42478-15.jpg

Simulate a real enemy fighter is not easy and the Russian or Chinese air force are not Iraq or Serbia, they are real giants that can give a sour taste to the USAF

Like I said before, how does China know that they can detect stealthy aircraft such as the F-22? I would not trust the Chinese military from just one report. What are they going to test their radars against?

I also doubt that the F-117 was detected regularly otherwise you would seen more shot down. They don’t fly particularly high or fast so they would be easy to shoot down if detected. Russians and Chinese are far behind the US in stealth technology and probably anti-stealth technology.

Yes, the MiG-29OVT is very agile but the F-22 will hold its own as it holds a much better thrust to weight ratio and will be able to turn the fight into the vertical plane.

JFrazier

I feel you are over estimating the Chinese, the Japanse developed the A6M Zero and the Americans and western nations rated it as worst than any western contemporary fighter just to later know they were beaten by it.

I won`t consider the Chinese as bluffing, it`s possible they can detect the F-22 because even Serbia with much less technology could shot down one F-117.

Consider that Serbia had one of the weakest air forces in Europe in 1999.

I will ask you this do you think the French or the Germans can not detect the F-22?

Do you think the English can not track the F-22? i doubt the F-22 is the super machine many claim, in fact i think the F-22 is very over rated,

Test a F-15 with an F-22 does not prove it is better aircraft as many would think about it, why? because even with stealth there is a chance the enemy can get anti-stealth technologies reliable enough to render the F-22 less impressive than it seems in paper.

only in combat you can know how good is your weapon, why because the enemy always has different weapons, technologies and tactics

The chinese can build aircraft quit cheaply and won`t have any qualms fielding enough weapons to deal with the F-22 if they can detect it

I cant give you figures but can tell you what a tech. at edwards told me and he said that the F-22A interms of practical RCS is very close to B-2 and much better then F-117.

Well i addmit that perhaps i was was outdated in what respect information about the F-22 RCS, i agree i have read the F-22 is claimed as having a better RCS than the F-117.

This is all pretty damn hilarious. “Yeah but if we defeat stealth and put Meteor on the Flanker blah blah blah”. First you have to defeat stealth. When you do then you have a point. Well sortof. Whatever is done to make stealth aircraft visible at useful ranges is likely to make non-stealth aircraft detectable further away still. As for the Mig-31 and supercruising, how many pieces do you think the thing would be in if it tried to pull 7 Gs while at Mach 2?

But what is going to be the turn rate of an F-22 at Mach 1.7?
Any modern missile has the capability of hitting and destroying the F-22, the problem any aircraft like the Su-30MKI, MiG-29OVT have is detect the F-22.

The F-22 has hit and run tactics but if it pretends to fight a F-15I with Python V; a Su-30MKI or a MiG-29OVT with R-74 backward firing at eye ball range i do not think it will be overwhelmingly superior.
In fact the MiG-29OVT is more agile than the F-22 having 3D thrust vectoring Nozzles while the F-22 only has 2D thrust vectoring nozzles.

Tell me why the F-117 which is stealthier than the F-22 but can not carry AAMs?

Stealth and agility are not exactly the best of buddies and the F-22 even had to compromise. also it lacks an IRST system due to the already high price it has.

The F-22 flattened nozzles needed non afterburning engines in order to have a smaller IR signature but it comes with a minus no 3D thrust vectoring nozzles.

The AL-41 has not flattened nozzles

What speed does the mig-31 reach without afterburners???? Remember supercruise is flying WITHOUT AB’s as with AB’s its just supersonic flight that bumps up your IR signature something that would be unacceptable for a fifth gen design thereby You are basically comparing apples to oranges, ANd i’ve never seen anything close to mach 1.72 for 120nm for the EF and they have never released anything close to the Flight test data on how much the EF supercruises and for how long and with how many weapons.

And what is that supposed to mean??? Is the f-22A NOT capable of depending itself to the highest degree through supercruise,integrated avionics and radar if it is picked up on the radar?? U have to get over the fact that the F-117 is a three decade old and 2 generation older stealth design .( i could have gone in and written about the F-117 downing but didnt want to get involved in a flame war and destroy this thread so please dont get into that)

And ofcourse the F-22A would be even more lethal if you upgrade it to the standard of THE USS ENTERPRISE and make it into a “warpcruiser”. But you are perhaps right. the USAF learned that if they take a f-15 add supermanuevrability,add supercruise,add integrated avionics and add stealth then it would be a world beater…Oh wait that is the exact requirment for the F-22A so it comes out to the F-22A. I can easily go into Apg-77 and its detection superioirity to anything that flies today and integrated avionics with the alq-94 however my analysis and figures are based on THE BIASED USAF AND ITS FIGURES RATHER THEN THE TRUE SOVIET FIGURES.

And ofcoruse the USAF and DOD is absolutely stupid and wont send in any Net-centric technolgy (which exists today whilest the XXJ is someones wet dream) and E-8 and GHAWACS’s and just send a handful of raptors without a network or AWACS coverage :rolleyes:

Yes but they still chose stealth so they attest to its capability. Even if detection ranges are increased its simple physics to see that the lesser RCS has a tactical advantage to greater RCS. Just because the russians dont want it doesnt mean that its useless or isnt important or isnt going to be usefull . Just look at the billions Europe is sinking in trying to come up wit extreme LO UCAV’s and trying to reduce the RCS of its fighters..What people find hard to fathom is the fact that the USAF itself sees that supercruise and Integrated avionics and datalinks are important and the fact that the aircraft is made exponentially more survivable if high degree of stealth is combined with high supercruise so that the aircraft spends the least ammount of time in high threat enviroment. Also the fact that more and more foreign AF’s are getting into stealth attests its capabilities.

Partner the Mig-31 doesnt supercruise (unless you can prove that it does high supersonic speeds at military power) what you say is high supersonic speed with A/B for prelonged periods of time. That isnt the same as Supercruise as supercruise doesnt hinder with stealth as it doesnt bump up the IR signature unlike what full AB’s does. And the Mig-31 is an interceptor and not an all round fighter like the f-22,Su-35 and F-15 etc etc.

OF COURSE DETECTING IS REALLY EASY!!! And the F-22 has no advantage interms of avionics etc etc..And how many meteors are currently in operation???? U seem to have a near perfect recipe so why dont you go and tell the russians not to develop any new aircraft and waste precious money and just buy some meteors and pythons for the mig-31’s :rolleyes:

Bring_it_on

Missiles like the Python V and ASRAAM have rendered the term supermaneouvrability up to a certain level meaningless

So the F-22 and Su-30MKI can be beaten by fighters armed with missiles of that kind.

The F-22 has a smaller IR signature and a very small RCS signature, the main advantage of the F-22 is not at WVR combat is at BVR due to stealth and supercuise

The F-22 can be challenge by the Eurofighter in supercuise terms and the MiG-31 is not far behind.

Now what really makes the F-22 great is Stealth, nevertheless the Chinese claimed the F-22 is detectable, an F-117 was shot down and detected by 1960s technology, now consider that Russians, Europeans and Chinese are developing such systems for detectting faceted fighters with low IR signature.

The Meteor has counterparts in Russia, i am not saying the MiG-31 is better undoutedly the F-22 is ahead because has more advanced technologies but if the Russians keep their word in less than 10 years they will be fielding something better than the F-22 and very likely the Chinese and Russians will have better radars that will be able to detect F-22s.

But if the Russians and Chinese get reliable technology to detect F-22s well believe me the best AAM will be the diciding factor and stealth as we know it will become obsolete.

The Eurofighter isn’t very close to the F-22 in supercruise and I doubt that it would be able to hold those speeds for as long as the F-22. In terms of manuverability, I am impressed more by the MiG-29OVT than the Su-30MKI. I think F-22 could hang with the MKI but the OVT would be a challenge. It would most likely be toast from a BVR shot however. The F-22 is two generations ahead of the F-117 in terms of stealth technology and its RCS is probably equal to or smaller than that plane’s.

I don’t see how they can be at the F-22’s level. Their airframe designs are a generation behind, as are the electronic and avionics packages. The F-22 will not be detected on a normal basis. That’s the point of the F-22. I would think that US engineers and test teams have put the F-22 against the most powerful radars in our arsenal. You can’t just say that stealth is obsolete just because one plane was downed.

Those planes pose no threat to the F-22 in the BVR arena and the OVT and BM are the only ones to get close in the WVR area. However, the F-22 will see them far before they detect it.

MiG-31 :rolleyes:

Well the Eurofighter has supercuise according to what i have read, the MiG-31 can fly around 30 miinutes at Mach 2.35, if we do not call the MiG-31 supercruise capable well how do you call an aircraft tha can fly at that speed for 30 minutes?

About avionics in 2006 avionics are not the big problem Europe can easily integrate advanced avionics, the Russians statements are they will make an integrated tactical combat system that will exchange infromation in few words a very advanced data link system and they will fit it to their new fifth generation fighter.

The AL-41 can be fitted to different arcraft and avionics the same, advanced missiles the same, the only thing that can not be installed is stealth as it is in the F-22 configuration.

If you can detect the F-22 just arm a MiG-31 with Meteor and Python V type missile and the F-22 will losse all the advantages it had, in few words if stealth is rendered useless well the F-22 won`t prevail

Supermanuevrability the russians were at the level (if not ahead) long time back however i dont agree with the supercriuse..How many hours has a supercruising engine run? How many hourrs has a fighter supercruised?? How much distance??? the biggest challenge isnt supercruise or super manuevrability but stealth.

It would be exiting to see them however i doubt they’d have them fully ready to test by this timeframe.

Bring it on

These are statements by high ranking Russian military officials, in fact they quoted a Russian General named Vladimir Mihailov.

The Heavy weight fighter might have it`s first flight in 2007 see it`s the next year and probably the roll out might be in the remaining months of 2006