I’d disagree here. More speed at launch imparts more kinetic energy onto your BVR AAM, and gives it greater range and maneuvering capability.
That’s a nice website. Is there any official source you can find this time?
Of course, my TVC-equipped Su-30MKI has a much greater chance of evading a WVR shot, thanks to that TVC, and it’ll use it to get right in behind your Jaguar or F-15 and blast it to hell before you can say “how in the crap did I miss”. Next.
Newer missiles are more maneouvrable. the Python V and ASRAAM are not slouches, in fact the Python V is a fifth generation missile thanks to it`s agility among other things
many missiles were easier to dodge because of the seeker not because of agility, seeker limitations can make a missile loose lock on, newer missiles are harder to avoid so thrust vectoring even it`s important won`t make a Su-30MKI unbeatable to the degree of avoid air to air missiles easily, it is more important jamming the air to air missile and exploit the air to air missile head seeker limitations
Agility at high speed is far more important since speed is life and proof of that is the MiG-25 and in that aspect the Eurofighter and F-22 are ahead of any aircraft with supercruise
So a Sepecat Jaguar or a Panavia Tornado won`t be easy prays since inferior agility with respect the Su-30MKI will be fixed by a better seeker and by a rear ward firing capability but fighters like the F-16I are going to be even more lethal
Max launch show maximum range that target can be fired but it does not mean that target is stationary. it can move away from the point at speed greater than Mach 2.5 to escape R-73. otherwise show us maximum launch range of Asraam.
It is not just the induction of missile but years of training that fighters like EF are behind Flankers. Asraam hast been adopted widely.
the only gap is with F-22.
Модификация К-73Э
Макс. дальность стрельбы в ППС, км 30
Мин.дальность стрельбы в ЗПС, км 0,3
from R-73 data
This shows you the Max lauching range for the R-73 is 30km and the minimun range is 300 meters, the aircraft computer should calculate under those parameters for a non static target the R-73 range therefore
the true range of the R-73 basicly will be 30km>target>0.3km
How would stealth or supercruise aide a Su-30MKI in combat against an F-15 with a Python 5?
Supercruise is vastly overrated, and stealth is a very useful feature that no current operational fighter except the F-22 has…
So the Su-30MKI is crap because it doesn’t have supercruise or stealth, but Python V armed F-15s and ASRAAM equipped Jaguars are super planes…
Interesting that a new WVR IR guided missile can make an otherwise obsolete interceptor better than any other fighter available today, yet the potential of getting a similar missile for the Su-30MKI is a waste of time, because the Su-30MKI is not a 21st C plane. I’d suggest that getting a new close range IR guided missile together with the R-77M with an expected range of 120km+ and also the R-37M with a flight range of 400km would seem to suggest that the Su-30MKI has a good future potential for real targets. Sure, probably not good enough to invade middle eastern countries for their oil, but certainly good enough to hold off the JDAMs while the launch codes for TOPOL-Ms are keyed in.
Garry B
Thrust vectoring by it self is not the only way of achieving a kill, modern missiles contrary to older ones they are not only aimed by a fixed sight but also they can be aimed by inertial guidance and a HMS, this fact keeps the Su-30MKI`s thrust vectoring nozzles aid not as overwhelmingly decisive as many might think.
Having a Python V is an equivalent of having thrust vectoring, the R-73 can barely get 120 deg or in other words +60 and -60 deg of angular tracking capability, In the Su-30MKI in order to get the R-73 beyond the limits of the seeker you need to point the aircraft nose towards the target with SUPER MANEOUVRABILITY, the Python V has not that limitation it has full sphere capability or 360 degree of engagement capability without the need of Super maneouvrability and without loosing speed as in the Su-30MKI
If you have stealth you can fight better and the Eurofighter has supercruise
The Panavia Tornado has no HMS that is a limitation on the ASRAAM, but in the Eurofighter it has not such limit, tnat is the reason why the Panavia Panavia Tornado will be retired
http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/9483/italy/f33.jpg
The maximum launch range at a head on target at high altitude and high speed is 30km. That means the two planes are 30km apart at launch, but as both are at high altitude and high speed they will cross paths quite rapidly. The R-73 will not travel 30km to hit the target. The tail chase range presumably with both aircraft travelling at high altitude and high subsonic speed (presumably) is 14km, so the range the missile actually flys is probably somewhere in between those two figures. (ie 22-24km or so)
So in a couple of years time when the Russians have their R-xx short range missile in the ASRAAM class, their R-77M and their extra long range R-37M missile ready for export the Su-30MKI will be better than anything else flying… :rolleyes:
Without Stealth or Supercruise the Su-30MKI is superfluous in the XXI century, in 1986 well thrust vectoring alone and the R-73 meant the best fighter even in 1996 but in 2006 you need stealth and supercruise without it the Su-30MKI is no match for a Python V armed F-15 or even a ASRAAM and HMS retroffited Sepecat Jaguar.
The Panavia Tornado ADV even still has some chances against a Su-30MKI thanks to the ASRAAM, of course the Eurofighter will mean real advantage
The Tornado has at least a 180deg engagement capability at the frontal hemisphere
Russian blue thunder?
Fenestron on ugly and menacing bugs 😀
Pictures from Mi-24 ,Bluethunder and http://www.airwar.ru
Yes, but that was done years ago. Not long afterwards, it was announced that Jaguar would be retired a couple of years earlier than previously scheduled. Note that the RAF website is not updated very often, & says it was done “recently”.
For confirmation of retirement in 2007 you don’t need to rely on sites like this. It was officially announced 2 years ago, by Geoff Hoon, who was then Minister of Defence. Tornado F3 is scheduled to retire by 2010, when there should be enough Typhoons in service replace it.
Thanks, you have clarify me some data any way it is interesting that these beautiful aircraft have ASRAAM and one has HMS, i guess the Jaguar at close quarters still is a very efficient aircraft.
I guess now the F-15, F-16, F-18, Panavia Tornado, F-5 and Sepecat Jaguar have in the ASRAAM, Python V and AIM-9X a superiority in weaponry that leaves any Russian armed fighter with R-73 in disadvantage even the powerful Su-30MKI
.
It`s a pity the F-14 can not fire the AIM-9X, the MiG-23 has been upgraded in very small numbers around 20 
; perhaps the JH-7 might end up having better weapons
pictures from http://www.airwar.ru or MiG-23-98 and Su-30MKI
And the AK-47 7.62 x 39mm round is a modern rimmless cartridge that is much mroe modern than an old 7.62 x 54mm Rimmed rifle cartridge.
Both can kill. The question is, is the old missile unable to perform its job and is suddenly completely useless in its role? Equally is it never to be replaced in service? Unless the US attacks Russia before their next gen IR guided missile enters service then the difference in performance is not important. The R-73 is good enough to be very dangerous to most currently in service aircraft East and West.
If the missile seeker can’t see past 90 degrees then it doesn’t matter if the HMS can or not. You need more information to feed into the missile before you can use it against targets behind yours.
Most importantly even if you can fire over your shoulder at a target behind you the range of your missile will be measured in single figures (ie 4-5km tops).
With no rearward facing sensors, I doubt it.
There is a shock. A Russian missile that is more than 20 years old is not superior to missiles created within the last 5 years in the west. Hard to believe…
The practical differences are zero. The R-73 has better off the wing manouver capability with its thrust vectoring. In flight the R-73 can engage 12 g targets, so any superiority the Python might have will mean those 13 g targets will escape an R-73 but not a Python… not seen many 13g capable targets myself.
It certainly improves the aircrafts WVR capability, but no more than it would any fighters WVR capability.
At low level with ABs on it will be a glowing torch to IRST and IR guided missiles.
If you are just going to fly straight and level and let the missile do all the manouvering then halve its effective range.
The difference is not hugely signficant, unless war breaks out soon. A Russian 5th gen short, medium, and long range missile is in development… and from the types they are describing the medium will be in the meteor range of 120-140km range, while the long range will be 400km or so…
Firing at aft targets would be very very rare for a fighter. For a low level interdictor it would be very common due to its flight profile and low level speed. Of course the penalty of firing at low level and having the missile turn hard at launch instead of accelerating would gravely effect effective missile range.
It will also be flying higher and faster extending rang of all missiles fired.
At high altitude at a high speed closing target. Tail chase range is 14km, also at high altitude.
The Su-27 has had HMS, Radar, and IRST engagement options since the 80s. The difference in tracking performance is not significant. The better countermeasures resistance of the ASRAAM is important, but pivotal only if the R-73 was not shooting down targets… and it seems to have performed OK so far.
Well let`s put it in this way, the ASRAAM makes a clumsy interceptor a respectable dogfighter, the R-73 is already carried by a fighter that is quit agile, the Su-30 will slow down each time it executes the cobra or super cobra or what ever high agility maneouver, the Panavia Tornado can not execute such maneouvers but niether will slow down, both fighters can be alerted by AWACS and RWR about other fighters targeting at their tails.
The Su-30 won`t be able to shoot at a aft coming target, but the Tornado with a HMS will, i do not think the Panavia Tornado has a HMS and i do not think only with RWR can cue onto a target, but if it can do it with different sensors and those include DATA LINK perhaps it can do it but honestly i do not know if it can, i just suspect i can fire at the forefront and in that it is better than the Su-30.
Certainly the Panavia Tornado with a HMS can shoot at rear coming targets However there is a fighter in RAF service with HMS and ASRAAM and that is the Sepecat Jaguar
Helmet Mountet Sight in Sepecat Jaguar
Single-seat attack and reconnaissance aircraft
Two-seat trainer
Upgraded to use GPS navigation and helmet-mounted missile sight
Details
Produced to meet a joint Anglo-French requirement in 1965 for a dual-role advanced/operational trainer and tactical support aircraft, the Jaguar has been transformed into a potent fighter-bomber. Deliveries began in 1973, and at its peak the Jaguar equipped 8 front-line RAF squadrons in the UK and Germany.
The RAF’s Jaguar fleet has recently undergone a major upgrade programme and been designated as the Jaguar GR3 (or T4 for the 2-seat version). The upgrade included improved avionics including Global Positioning System (GPS) and Terrain-Referenced Navigation (TRN) , Night Vision Goggles (NVG) compatible lighting (both internally and externally), helmet-mounted sight and ASRAAM capability, and new Head-Up and Head-Down Displays in the cockpit.
from RAF SEPECAT JAGUAR
The reason the Panavia Tornado ADV is going to be retired in only 3 years more in 2009
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