You’re going to switch a current deployed fighters list so you could place the LCA which has no inducted air force units over the F-CK-1 which numbers over 120 and has served in the ROCAF since the 1990s across one of the world’s most heavily armed flashpoints :rolleyes:

probably this will prove the LCA`s aerodynamic solutions are not as good as those of the J-10`s in aerodynamics and engine, the J-10 was more practical settling for the AL-31 and adding canards

LCA dogged by engine power limitations

Special Correspondent

NEW DELHI: The first batch of light combat aircraft (LCA) Tejas would carry “limited weaponry” because of engine power limitations, said highly placed Defence Ministry sources.

The Indian Air Force (IAF) has placed orders for 20 LCAs and agreed in principle to take another 20.

“There is no way you can have any other engine for the first 40 LCAs,” said the sources. The LCA was undergoing tests fitted with the American GE-404 engine with a capacity of 80 to 85 kilo newtons (kn).

The IAF, on the other hand, wanted the capacity to be 95-100 kn, the same as the ones powering the F-16 fighters. “If we buy a more powerful engine, the aircraft structure will have to be completely changed. This will not be possible with the initial lot,” the sources said.

The initial operational clearance is slated for 2010 end but besides the engine issue, the LCA is facing problems on two other fronts — the angle of attack and the landing gear. While the angle of attack achieved by LCA is 17 degrees, the IAF wants it to be 21.

In order to fit a more powerful engine in the future, the government is considering both direct import and co-development options. In case the import route is preferred, the contenders will be General Electric’s GE-414 and the European EZ 200. The IAF has indicated its preference for the former.

For co-development, the choice will be between Snecma of France and the Russian NPO Saturn.

http://www.hindu.com/2008/06/06/stories/2008060654911200.htm

MiG:

The web data you show me didn’t say what’s condition cause F-111 approach over 5000km ferry range. what if max internal fuel with 4X2271 Liters external fuel tanks which Aardvark normally carry?

it will carry a max of 6 external fuel tanks

read my blog and the WS-10 thread SDF, it’s all there.

There was a huge ramp up in production level in October of last year.

oh man, L-15 project is going absolutely no where. The slowness of Hongdu in developing this thing has really pissed off the PLA brass. If anything, it looks like JF-17 is going to take a lot of orders that would’ve gone to L-15. HAIG really is an embarrassment to AVIC.

Man i did not find any evident and solid proof only again specualation of your part even the typical argument to justify the Su-27/J-11B

Nothing concrete

Give me a solid proof the J-10 uses WS-10 and no AL-31, the Russians have already said the eventrually the WS-10 will turn out to be a operational engine but so far still is not.

Москва. 21 февраля. ИНТЕРФАКС-АВН – Российские эксперты в области вооружений не исключают, что Китаю удалось скопировать один из лучших истребителей в мире Су-27СК, о чем сообщалось в российских и зарубежных СМИ, но они уверены, что по летным и боевым характеристикам китайская копия существенно уступает российскому оригиналу.

“Отказ КНР от перевода в твердый контракт опциона на поставку технологических комплектов для лицензионного производства истребителей Су-27СК (J-11) свидетельствует о том, что в КНР взят курс на создание собственной копии этой машины. Нельзя исключать, что рано или поздно им удастся скопировать российский истребитель, но в любом случае это будет лишь китайская копия, а не оригинал. Ни технически, ни технологически Китай пока не готов создать такую копию, которая по боевым и летно-техническим характеристикам соответствовала бы российскому Су-27”, – заявил “Интерфаксу-АВН” заместитель директора Центра анализа, стратегий и технологий Константин Макиенко.
Он напомнил, что в 1995 году был подписан контракт на лицензионное производство в Китае 200 истребителей Су-27СК, но реально было построено лишь 95 машин. Затем китайская сторона приостановила закупку машинокомплектов для сборки истребителей.
К.Макиенко отметил, что аналогичные усилия предпринимаются китайской оборонной промышленностью и в отношении практически всех других систем вооружений российского или западного происхождения. “Стоит напомнить, что, получив в 50-е годы технологию истребителя МиГ-21, китайский авиапром затем в течение сорока лет создавал на базе этой машины различные варианты собственных истребителей. В этом контексте попытки создать полностью китайский аналог Су-27 не могут вызывать удивления”, – сказал эксперт.
По его словам, в настоящий момент главным препятствием для создания китайской версии Су-27 являются трудности в копировании двигателя АЛ-31Ф, передача технологии которого не была предусмотрена лицензионным контрактом 1995 года. “Масштабные китайские закупки двигателей АЛ-31Ф и АЛ-31ФН в России свидетельствуют о том, что китайская реплика WS-10A все еще не удовлетворяет современным требованиям, вероятнее всего, по ресурсным характеристикам. С учетом быстрого и устойчивого экономического и научно-технологического роста КНР создание аналога АЛ-31Ф представляется делом времени, но на сегодняшний момент можно уверенно констатировать все еще сохраняющееся отставание китайского военного двигателестроения от российских возможностей”, – сказал К.Макиенко.
Он отметил, что в России ведутся масштабные работы по созданию более современных версий АЛ-31Ф. “Стоит напомнить, что не далее как 19 февраля совершил первый полет прототип истребителя Су-35, оснащенный двигателями “изделие 117” разработки НПО “Сатурн” с увеличенной на 15% тягой и значительно возросшим ресурсом”, – сказал К.Макиенко.

Moscow. February 21. Interfax-AVN – Russian experts in the field of armaments do not exclude that China was able to copy one of the best fighters in the world Su-27SK, as reported in Russian and foreign media, but they are confident that on the flight and combat characteristics of the Chinese copy substantially inferior to Russian original.

“The refusal of the PRC at a solid option contract for the supply of technological kits for licensed production of Su-27SK fighters (J-11) indicates that the course taken in China to create its own copy of this machine. It can not be excluded that sooner or later they will be able to Russian fighter copy, but in any case it will only copy of the Chinese, rather than the original. Neither technically nor technologically China is not yet ready to establish such a copy, which military aircraft and technical characteristics consistent with the Russian Su-27 “- said” Interfax-AVN “Deputy Director of the Center analysis, strategies and technologies Konstantin Makienko.
He recalled that in 1995 a contract was signed on licensed production in China 200 Su-27SK fighters, but they really were built only 95 cars. Then the Chinese side suspended the purchase of mashinokomplektov to build fighter planes.
K. Makienko noted that similar efforts are the Chinese defense industry and against almost all other weapons systems Russian or Western origin. “It will be recalled that, having received in the 50 – s technology MiG-21 fighter aircraft, Chinese aviaprom then over forty years, created on the base of the machine, various options for its own fighters. In this context, attempts to create a fully analog Chinese Su-27 may not be surprising “- Said the expert.
According to him, currently the main obstacle to creating a Chinese version of Su-27 was the difficulty in copying the AL-31F engine, transfer of technology which was not provided for the licensing contract in 1995. “Large-scale Chinese purchases AL-31F engines and the AL-31FN in Russia indicate that the Chinese WS-10A replica still does not meet modern requirements, most likely on the resource characteristics. Given the rapid and sustainable economic and scientific-technological growth in China the creation of an analogue AL-31F seems a matter of time, but at this point can confidently conclude there were still lagging behind the Chinese military from Russian engine of opportunity “- said K. Makienko.
He noted that Russia conducted extensive work to create a more modern versions AL-31F. “It will be recalled that no further as February 19, performed its first flight of a prototype Su-35 fighter aircraft, equipped with engines” product 117 “development of Saturn with increased traction by 15% and significantly increased resources” – said K. Makienko

http://www.npo-saturn.ru/!new/index….&id=1203597890

Well MIG, with all the due respect, lets dont mix economy/politic/etc, on the thread, i mean that is highly speculative, and we will end with the oil prices/diamonds/titanium markets, etc, stuff that dont goes well with the discussion.

The main problem is to develop the new aircraft is the engine, plain and simple, all that because the supercruiser fashion, ram airframe/X-band LO , really arent that hard as the engine

Supercruiser is a plain failure IMO, actually i hope the russians wont develop a new engine for the pak-fa, with SC and a base higher fuel consume, well, some guys here will say “but it dont have SC”….but im sure many engineers/logistic team will say….”and who cares?”, dont get me wrong but sometimes is about the higher nominal thrust, and sometimes is about how long you can sustain it, agility is about aerodesign /engine, well yes a new engine would be needed, but a more powerful engine not always ensure a better maneouverability

The japanese seems to have something real,i dont know from where they got the money,i dont care, but seems they have progresed a lot more than the chinese, so if you take the tangent now…well seems the japaguys will get first the plane

I guess if the chinese or Japanese are going to develop a fifth generation fighter, they will need several technologies already used by the F-22.

The Su-35BM has the engines but not the airframe, has the avionics but not the stealthy fuselage used by the F-22.

There are several technologies needed by any country to make a truely fifth generation fighter, so far the best 4+ fighter in Asia is the J-10.

The LCA is a small aircraft a truely 4th generation fighter but besides avionics and weaponry it is not a fifth generation fighter and the Kaveri is not even an equivalent of the Al-31 fitted to the Su-37 or Su-30MKI.

If we look at its aerodynamics we can see that the J-10 might be a really good fighter, something in between the Gripen and F-16, but the Mirage 2000 is not as good as the F-16 in all the flight regimes and the LCA looks like a modern upgraded Mirage 2000.
Having canards foreplanes and delta wings, the J-10 very likely can out fly the LCA and F-2 and surely will beat the Ching Kuo.

However with new technologies the LCA and F-2 might be able to outgun the J-10.

The ATD-X seems to advanced to cancel it, since when the project began?, sadly it airframe is too conventional, i would expected something more original…anyway..

Any speculation about the J-12?

What about Korean projects for 5th generation design?

in my opinion niether Japan or Korea will develop a fifth generation fighter, at least to F-22 standards.

China will do it why? China has the economic growth to ensure a large military budget, the Chinese Government has the will to develop their own stuff, even if its a derivative or copied, the chinese are developing their own weaponry.

If we look at the chinese the J-8II was flown after 20 years of the MiG-23 first flight and almost 30 years of the F-4`s however the aircraft had no compromises with foreign powers like the F-2 has.

The J-10 also is a prove that the chinese do not compromise for their national security, the J-10 is 20 years younger than the MiG-29A and in its early prototypes 30 years younger than the F-16A however it is the same level of technology.

Seen the american case it is easy to see China might develop a real stealth fighter at the earliest in 2020, almost 23 years after the american equivalent and might put it into service by 2030.

Why? China contrary to Russia has not shown any fifth generation engine, a must if you want supercruise and super maneouvrability and the WS-10 still is an AL-31 equivalent basicly an engine of the 1970s.

The SU-35BM has that type of engine and is flying and by 2010 will start operational life in the VVS.

If you consider pure projects only and not a derivative of an older American or Russian machine like the F-15J or MKI then the most successful Asian fighters currently in service are

1. J-10
2. F-CK-1
3. F-2
4. J-8II
5. JH-7A (fighter bomber/strike fighter)

There really isn’t any others. Certainly nothing with the numbers in service like the five above.

I’d put the F-2 behind the F-CK-1 because the F-2 is heavily based on the F-16 (though it was because of pressure from American Congress over trade balance.) Also, when the F-CK-1 came out in the 1990s, it was the one true 4th generation aircraft developed in Asia with a homegrown MRAAM. Amazing to speculate where Taiwan’s aviation industry would be if it had continued.

New projects:

1. FC-1/JF-17: this one would have the most impact in Asia — and beyond — because of the number of potential aircraft and users

2. T/A 50: impact similar to the FC-1 because it would be the only new trainer/light attack craft for users of American aircraft

3. L-15: even if Hongdu just inherits the current customer base built by the K-8, it would be a major success. But as a supersonic trainer/attack craft, it could expand the market of its predecessor

4. Tejas: if and when it actually makes it to service, it should have a fairly large home market and so should have an impact even though it would probably never be exported as much as the first three.

5. F-CK-1C/D: upgrade of the F-1-CK

As far as fifth generation projects, there is really none that is more than paper or speculation. The most viable are probably the multiple projects from CAC and SAC.

Considering that the J-10 was thought to be nothing more than rumor (and photoshops) just year and a half ago, it would be far less surprising to see one of the J-XX projects suddenly popping into reality. (It’s a trend we saw with not just the J-10 but the Z-10, the J-11B and a host of naval projects like the Yuan SSK and Type 054A.)

Your list should be modified

1. J-10
2. F-CK-1
3. F-2
4. J-8II
5. JH-7A (fighter bomber/strike fighter)

and the reason is the F-1 should be included there

1. J-10
2. F-2
3. LCA (a few flying)
4. IDF Ching Kuo
5. J-8II
6. F-1 (retired but was succesful)
7. JH-7A (fighter bomber/strike fighter)

The IDF Ching Kuo is an excellent aircraft but not as good as the F-2

Now the F-2 can probably beat the J-10 if the new Japanese missiles are better than what latest Chinese weapons can achieve, one example is the AAM-5 and AAM-4

Title
AAM-5 (Type 04) (Japan)

Section
AIR-TO-AIR MISSILES – WITHIN VISUAL RANGE

Appearing in
Jane’s Air-Launched Weapons

Publication date
Feb 06, 2007

Type
Infra-red guided air-to-air missile.

Development
Reports in 1991 first stated that design studies had started for a new, more manoeuvrable short-range air-to-air missile to replace Japan’s AAM-3, which itself entered development only in 1986. This new missile emerged as the XAAM-5 programme. As with previous Japanese AAMs, it was a joint development between the Japan Defense Agency’s (JDA) Technical Research and Development Institute (TRDI) and Mitsubishi Heavy Industries. In 1997, it was reported that the AAM-5 design would be evaluated against the Python 4, ASRAAM and AIM-9X missiles and that Mitsubishi had been awarded a lead contractor role for its further development. Flight tests are understood to have begun in 2001 using F-15 aircraft, carrying the missiles on shoulder-launch rails fitted to the main underwing pylons. Almost nothing is known about the design process and development history of the AAM-5. By 2003 TRDI sources had referred to ground-launched trials from the southern sea ranges at the Nijima test centre. The first deliveries of weapons were made to the JASDF in 2004 and its official service designation, Type 04, was allocated. By 2005 the AAM-5 was no longer listed as a major development programme by the TRDI.

http://www.janes.com/extracts/extract/jalw/jalw3022.html

I disagree with the above. Technologically, Tejas is unlikely to be inferior to ANY Asian fighter like J-10, J-11 or F-16 clones like F-2, Ching-Kuo or T-50.

In my opinion the J-10 is the best far eastern fighter because of the following reason.

Both the LCA and J-10 have delta wings but both have different ways of dealing with flow separation at high AoA, the J-10 uses canards, the LCA uses less swept at the the root of the leading edge to delay flow separation like the AJ-37 Viggen

However the F-2 and Ching Kuo use LERXes to deal with flow separation.

The J-10 has a high TWR and canards that also double as tail first surfaces.
The Ventral inlet is better fit for high AoA flight.

All of these makes me feel the J-10 is more agile than the LCA, also the J-10 has a proven engine and a spare one in the WS-10, the LCA is not operational in the numbers the J-10 is.

In my opinion the J-10 is the best fighter
The SU-30MKM or Su-30MKI are still the bests of all them all

The iranian fighter is not more than an upgraded F-5