MiG-23MLDEven if those comments really orginated from SIBNIA, they are just comments and opinions, and NOT fact per se.
But really, it is common knowledge of the extent the russians will go in trying to safeguard key military technology from falling into another country’s hands. One example being the “second rate” Su-27 that was supplied to China. That’s why I find it very odd that some russians are so quick in claiming credit whenever China comes out with any new military hardware. For example, the comments of the (ex?) russian general when China first successfully tested the ASAT.
Next , I think the title of this thread should be “Russians CLAIMS to confirm the Israelli…” simply because no one really knows the facts of the matter yet. And for some russians to make the claim based on some scribbling in hebrew in a chinese manual, it just doesn’t sound convincing to me.
The fact is that no country in this world can be so willing to transfer key military technologies to another country even if it involve a big sum of money – what is more, something that is one time only (against the most basic business sense!), and something that comes with unfavourable political or strategic ramifications, .
The closest thing in this regard under actual practice in the real world, is the license production of a certain product or the joint development of a new product where key technologies are still hidden in the components or modules that was used – for example, the engines, radar, the weapons system comes in as a whole module or in separate components, where the internal workings is still a mystery to the other party. No countries or manufacturers would be so generous as to teach their customers on how to develop and manufacture these components/modules or to transfer the technologies or knowhow to that effect. (Let us see what form of “technological transfers” the Russians is willing to make to the Indians in the PAK-FA project.)
In the case of the J-10, the engine may be of russian origin but did the russian teach the chinese on how to develop and manufacture it? – certainly not. The Israelli may be there (maybe with the blessings of the Americans who were there themselves for the peace pearl program.) for some project, did the Israeli actually teach the Chinese on how to develop and manufacture the system/component itself? (e.g. the radar or some FCS component.) – I certainly doubt so. (Why would they? The Israelli don’t owe the Chinese anything and it’s against the most basic business and strategic sense.) And, as of now, we know of no Israeli’s component or system flying in the J-10. – something which, if it happened, would have caused the americans to scream their head off!
It makes me laugh all the speculation in order to restore a common gossip and a speculation with great patriotic touches, SibNia lies, Jane`s is lying too why to say that simply to keep the great feat of engineering poluted by those russians who are lying just to steal the Su-27 from the Chinese.
please man in 1988 the J-10 would had been really top notch, in 2008 is at least 15 years behind the F-22 and versus the F-22 is just cannon fodder.
Even the latest Gripen NG leaves it behind, the F-16 of israel can also defeat the J-10.
Israel and Russia sold old technology to China, Russia sold the Al-31 an engine that is already more than 25 years old, the Su-27 is already 27 years old in the T-10S form and almost 31 in the T-10 variant those jets are old.
SibNIA said what they said because those statements come from Farnborough 2006.
The Su-27 has had several evolutions, the J-11A is basicly an F-15A/C class fighter, the Su-35 is a Rafale class fighter, the Su-35BM is an Eurofighter class fighter.
The J-10 is a MiG-29 or F-16 class fighter, israel sold good technology but not top notch, same russia.
China got soviet type aircraft same as the Russian ones but none like those of the Indians or equivalents to the Eurofighter, already Russia sold in 1996 old technology no MiG-1.44 or Su-47 technology niether Su-35BM.
China got the technology thanks to Russia and Israel, they have absorbed it and they did help in the design too but basicly the J-10 is an international program
Israel sold the IAI Lavi technology simply because they concentrated their efforts in radar and missile technology which basicly applied to a core system like the F-15 and into an AWACs makes the shell of the IAI Lavi obsolete and surplus, and selling the design they cashed back the investment poured in the IAI Lavi.
Russia sold also old technology no supermaneuvrability or engine technology with 3D Thrust Vectoring niether supercruise
MiG-23MLDAlthough not a lawyer the only “REAL” messure i see russia taking (that they can take legally) is smacking some type of embargo/sanction on china until china agrees to a compromise that is suitable to russia , other then that (and ofcourse attacking china in an all out war 😉 – not a possibility ) i dont see russia can do much . This isnt about a simple trade dispute (as it is russia aint in the WTO ) but complex weapons programs , tech transfer etc etc , solving by sitting down bi laterlally is the only way to resolve this , their is no court in my view that can rule on this that would be binding on china in any way. I doubt that any serious world power will team up with russia if such a hypothetical court passes such a hypothetical judgement and issue full sanctions on china for infringing upon rights of russia . This is most likely scare tactics by russia to china telling them they are on to it and that they should be more in line with russia or else face hurdles in defence cooperation , i dont see this much beyond that definately not like a major trade dispute that some might see this becoming .
i do not agree with you Russia forms part of the G-8 and several of those nations have complaigns about China`s behavior in several areas, Russia has enough clout to force the Chinese if they work with the G-8 group, also for the Chinese is not convinient cut relations with Russia i think China and Russia will reach an agreement for the J-11b production either by using russian engines or buying Su-35s or their related technology for the J-11B upgrdes
MiG-23MLDWill not comment on that………..patriotism, nationalism etc, etc………
Strictly speaking, why would they lie? I don’t know but I am sure someone can come up with a creative reason/conspiracy theory :D. And you are assuming I believe SibNia would lie? When did I say that “I believe” there is no basis to what they are saying? Huh? My personal opinion regarding the J-10 connections is irrelevant. Simply, what SibNia says (be it true or false) or what you or I think is irrelevant to the stance of the PRC (At least for the moment ::)). Officially we know their stance………and thats it. It might change in the future but……but I have to really stress the “MIGHT”…..
J-10 IS FLYING with the PLAAF. Like it or not that is the stance of the PRC Govt. For them it is THEIR great achievement (and considering what they were flying before J-6, J-7, J-8, JH-7 its is an achievement) …..
Man please SibNia is a research institute they have no reason to lie, the Chinese Governement has more reasons to lie specially since the Chinese use the aircraft in the news to stir the national feelings, they even interview Chinese engineers who say nothing about the input China has had from Israel or Russia, credibility is not in the Chinese side as you affirm.
SibNia is not making conspiracy theories simply commenting what Russia has done in the J-10 program something that the chinese do not report
MiG-23MLDIn what court and under which law is russia planning to take action ??
That question i do not know either, up to now we just know russia has informed China that the J-11B production is a violation of the interstate agreement between China and Russia and the Russians have not reported if they are filing a law suit or not simply they have informed china that they will violate the J-11 contract between both contries if they go ahead with the J-11B production.
Since it is an interstate agreement between the Russians and Chinese they have ways of dealing with such grievances between both governments. probably is a bilateral commision that will deal with such problems but in reality i do not know, perhaps the recent visit by the Russian president to China has something to do with that
MiG-23MLDAnd that seem to bother you? 😀 😮 Like I said, like it or not that’ll be what you hear from the PRC Govt. Unless off-course someone leaks out some actual footage. That MIGHT change their position….
😮 😀
Well yeah I guess maybe where you come from govt(s). don’t deny/lie/mislead……. News papers, TV channel have don’t have their own agendas and always report what is true……….
Yeah indeed, interesting……..more like wonderful………….but you know……………..some of us don’t have that luxury :(:(:(…….Yeah, so you are lucky in that sense…..
The Chinese use the J-10 as a way to stir patriotism in the masses for them is a way of use it as a national agenda, for the Russians and Israelies is just a report they do not care about the J-10 history beyond telling the truth, why SibNia will lie? SibNia is far more reliable than our opinions they are a scientific research institute.
Already the israeli media and Russian aviation companies say the J-10 is based upon the Lavi and before some Israeli Government officials did admmit some IAI lavi technology was leaked to China.
MiG-23MLD:confused: And? I am lost here………
Since this is “Russians Confirm Israeli Role Developing China’s J-10 Fighter” so I’ll just drop the “population, distorting history, patriotic feelings etc etc yada yada blah blah” 😀 😀
And I’ll repeat it! Like it or not. J-10 IS FLYING IN THE PLAAF and they will call it THEIR great achievement! That seem to bother you? 😮 😀 An probably is a great achievement in their context considering what they were flying before (J-6, J-7, J-8 :eek:. Only OK(ish) one would be the JH-7).
😮 😀 OK! I’ll go into demon mode :diablo:…..
Demon Mode On
Russians or their media or who ever is irrelevant! Those are your wonderful facts! Good for you! Doesn’t matter even if it come from the very top. They can say what they want. They aren’t the official spokes persons for the PRC. PRC will deny it. Official Israeli Govt. position is silent at best (Neither confirm nor deny). And I am not talking about individual MP comments news paper clippings here. Like I said….the whole thing seem to bother you? Like it or not read above….
Demon Mode Off
On serious note: Seriously this isn’t news for many of us. Many of us always believed J-10 connections. Heck, why won’t you ask Crobato! IIRC he believes there is/was a connection. How deep that connection off-course varies from member to member, but this seriously is NOT news for many of us.
yeah yeah yeah hyperwarp, so SibNia just made it, so the israeli TV Channel just made it, so the russians who were directly involved helping china are making up the news, haaretz just made it yah interesting.
Governments deny what they do not like and Governments also lie
any way i believe more SibNia than You and i Believe more Haarets and Kommersant`s reporter Kostantin Lantratov than you, therefore the J-10 as the Russians say is a derivative of the IAI Lavi with an Al-31
MiG-23MLDDoes the news quoted any authorized statement from Rosoboronexport? Or would you like to review your Wiki course on NEWS?
Even not clear on ABC, how to talk on Shakespeare?
Since the news were posted by Rosoboronexport too, Rosoboronexport is also crediting the report as NEWS, therefore all the fallacies you and Crobato use to justify your reasoning have no base.
MiG-23MLDThen show us Rosoboronexport’s official announcement not news, if you are not satisfied with Sukhoi :diablo:
Rosoboronexport posted the news, rosoboronexport press releases are only about international arms shows and are not related about daily news, however the news are posted in the media watch of rosoboronexport, Rosoboronexport is the Russian defence export state corporation and posted the news of both the Mi-17 assembly in China and the illegal chinese copies of the Su-27 aka J-11B in its media watch, Rosoborexport posts news that are true they would not post lies you are saying that Rosoboronexport posted lies so then the Mi-17 assembly of China is also a lie?
you are just following a loop and wrong and dishonest thinking it is not smart even if you post the emoticon with a little devil face smiling, it does not make your smarter for sure
MiG-23MLDSo what is the official announcement and not a news only, here is the example, which comes directly from the president of Sukhoi and he is promoting the co-operation between Sukhoi and Chinese partner.
http://en.rian.ru/russia/20080523/108160624.html
Flooggy, you can write to him directly to highlight whatever BS you have instead of throwing them here. :diablo:
Pinko
Please man you are again doing my milk shake is better than yours,Rosoboronexport is the Russian defence export state corporation and posted the news of both the Mi-17 assembly in China and the illegal chinese copies of the Su-27 aka J-11B, you do not believe news that bother you and just believe the news you want to hear, who is more believeable You and Crobato who even no one knows you internationally as Russian media outlets or Pravda, ITARTASS or Rosoboroexport who posted news about the illegal Su-27 copies in china?
of course you are no one in the Media specially in russia since you do not even speak russian and much less you have any real authorization to write in Itartass or rosoboronexport or to say what rosoboronexport will post who are you no one important in the Russian Media
Now the only reason you say the Russian media is wrong is simply because you were claiming for years the J-11B was going to be another J-7 and Russia was not going to complaign, all your speculation has been proven wrong and now to save your reputation you try to claim the news of the illegal copies of the J-11B are no reliable or simply are misinformation why simply because you were claiming to be experts in the field of Chinese aviation and now this news prove you, you were wrong
MiG-23MLDFlogger I really don’t care 😀 (Not that I believe everything you post). If PRC needed help then they should get help instead of getting stuck. They have to somehow learn. And eventually learn to do it themselves. Before J-10, what was the most advance locally built plane? J-8II? JH-7? J-10 is a fair jump. They are bound to bump into problems. Nobody is perfect. And if foreign help is required to overcome those problem then definitely get that help instead of treading water or very long development process with mixed results. Eventually they should learn to do it themselves (This is assuming they haven’t already got there). Unless this help given was free of charge or as good will gift (or unless stated otherwise) they don’t need acknowledge any of this help to anyone, or feel grateful, especially if one has to pay a huge thumping amount to get that help…(unless stated otherwise off-course in some agreement).
all that is a excuse, nations distort history only for one reason to give the masses a patriotic sense, the J-10 is the same, is a way of stir the patriotic feelings of the masses, it is not the same if you say our great achievements were domestic than saying we a nation of more than one billion people needed help from a nation of 8 million people and still we could not built the J-10 ourselves then we needed the help of russia a nation with only the 10% of the population of China.
What is better for the masses? of course the one that claims we did it without help
specially if you can get in trouble the the people that sold you the Lavi documentation.
The real fact is simply the IAI Lavi was modified in china by Russian, Chinese and israeli engineers and the documentaion was sold by IAI to Chengdu
MiG-23MLDSorry, but that does not make it official. Anything from a third party source posted in a host does not make the third party’s opinion shared by the host. That’s how the media works.
If you really want to prove that a formal legal action has been made, print text from Ross or from the Russian government itself, not second hand from news reports. Name the international court its been filed. Please note that the Russians are not a member of the WTO and the WTO does not cover national security issues.
Somehow formally, Ross mentions the MiL-17 license officially and clearly in its web page as front page news but the J-11 issue is not? Furthermore, that webpage you referred to isn’t even directly linked from the main page, like its buried deep so people don’t notice it exactly.
You can see where its going.
The issue is all moot anyway. Russia isn’t going to win any law suits here but as complaints go, they’re going to get some kind of compensation anyway.
When Rosoboronexport posted the news is already crediting it, also the news posted about the Mi-17 are in the same section of the news of the russians sueing china because of the J-11B illegal production but they are in different day and the news are not official press releases as you affirm, the official press releases are about rosoboronexport exposition participation only
here is the proof
this is May 22 2008 about the Mi-17 assembly in China
http://www.roe.ru/news/lenty/lenta_08_05_22.html
Опасный конкурент
В Китае может быть организована сборка вертолетов Ми-171
RBCdaily. 22.05.2008. /Сергей Колобков/.
По мнению многих представителей авиапрома, создание на территории Китая мощностей по сборке вертолетов Ми-171 может стать серьезной угрозой российской промышленности. Противники этого проекта вспоминают, как разработанный истребитель J-11B стал аналогом Су-27СК, который производился в Китае с 1996 года. Мощность создаваемого вертолето-строительного производства составляет 100 машин в год. По некоторым данным, у китайской стороны уже есть заказчики из восьми стран, а на территорию завода поставлено 53 комплекта.
In China can be organized assembly of Mi-171 helicopters
RBCdaily. 22.05.2008. / Sergei Kolobkov.
According to many representatives aviaproma, establishment of the Chinese territory’s assembly capacity MI-171 could become a serious threat to Russian industry. Opponents of the project recall, as developed by J-11B fighter was analogous to the Su-27SK, which took place in China since 1996. aircraft-building production of 100 sets a year. According to some reports, the Chinese side already have customers from eight countries, and the territory of the plant supplied 53 sets.
here is the Su-27 piracy news
Обзор Прессы
22 апреля 2008 г.
Военно-техническое сотрудничество России с иностранными государствами.
Международное военное сотрудничество
Подозрительный аналог
РУССКИЕ “СУШКИ” ПО-КИТАЙСКИ
Независимая Газета. 22.04.2008. /Виктор Мясников/.
Пекин становится крупнейшим экспортером оружия за счет приобретенных у Москвы технологий
Попытки России закрепиться на китайском рынке вооружений с помощью передачи Пекину «отверточной» сборки истребителей Су-27СК не оправдали ожиданий. Освоив технологию выпуска, Китай наладил собственное производство их аналогов с прицелом на последующий экспорт в страны третьего мира. Россия официально уведомила Китай о том, что производство истребителей J11, копирующих российский Су-27СК, является нарушением межгосударственных договоренностей.
Press Review
April 22, 2008
Military-technical cooperation with foreign countries Russia.
The international military cooperation
Suspicious analogue
RUSSIANS “SUSHKI” PO-KITAYSKI
Nezavisimaya Gazeta. 22.04.2008. / Viktor Myasnikov.
Beijing has become the largest exporter of arms from technology acquired from Moscow
Attempts to Russia gaining a foothold on the Chinese market through the transfer of weapons to Beijing “otvertochnoy” assembly of Su-27SK fighters fell short of expectations. Mance technology issue, China has developed its own production of their counterparts with a view to the subsequent export to third world countries. Russia officially informed China that manufacture fighter J11, copied the Russian Su-27SK, is a violation of interstate agreements
http://www.roe.ru/news/lenty/lenta_08_04_22.html
here is the proof these are Rosoboron press releases and these only deal with international arms shows
http://www.roe.ru/news/pr_rel/pr_rel_eng/pr_eng_08_05_12.html
http://www.roe.ru/news/pr_rel/pr_rel_eng/pr_eng_08_04_21.html
Please Crobato you are no fooling any one only your self
MiG-23MLDExcept that the original article wasn’t made by Ross itself.
Nezavisimaya Gazeta. 22.04.2008. /Виктор Мясников/. / Viktor Myasnikov.In fact, every news article in that page isn’t something officially by Ross as you look further down. Its just a collection of various news events related to Russian armstrade.
Russia will increase the supply of weapons
Труд. Trud. 22.04.2008Pre artpodgotovka
ВРЕМЯ НОВОСТЕЙ. TIME NEWS. 22.04.2008. /Николай ПОРОСКОВ, Куала-Лумпур/. / Nikolay POROSKOV, Kuala Lumpu’Time News in Kuala Lumpur?
So don’t pretend that the article is some official statement from Ross like you falsely make it out to be.
The article is posted in the past news of April of the Rosoboronexport`s webpage , they are part of their media watch and rosoboronexport is basicly posting the news.
The News are in the rosobornexport news section of its official webpage therefore they are giving credit to this.
Rosoboronexport does post news from other russian outlets, if the official russian defence export state corporation has in its own webpage that news what does it mean, that rosoboronexport posts lies?
you know perfectly the answer the Russian media has reported that Russia has already informed China that the J-11B production is a violation of the interstate agreement.
Do you want to believe it? no of course not for you your pride is more important
MiG-23MLDAnd? :confused: :confused:
Whats wrong with getting help be it the Russian, Israeli’s, Aliens who ever? When faced with difficulties, get help instead of getting stuck in one place!Like I said, help or no help J-10 IS FLYING!
Oh and strictly speaking, neither Janes nor these Russian engineers nor some news papers are the official mouth piece for the PRC.
And about the whole “most respected defense and aerospace publication publicly on earth”…..?? Especially thing related to PRC Military developments….. Heh! Thats upto each an every individual…. Especially when it comes PRC Military developments!
And don’t forget who runs this forum!
Lastly, my person opinion is that there is quite a connection between the Lavi and J-10. But thats just a personal opinion….
here no one questions if the J-10 is flying but only the history of its development.
Partners with Chinese Industry
SibNIA’s work with the PRC started out as helping the Chinese understand how the Su-27 and Su-30s they were purchasing from Russia actually performed and how Chinese industry could improve in its efforts to license assemble and support these aircraft. But SibNIA found itself acting as an instructor and scientific “guide” in helping the Chinese understand how to design a new aircraft from the bottom up.
According to SibNIA, the J-10 is a melting pot of foreign technology and acquired design methods. “The aircraft is more or less a version of the [Israel Aircraft Industries] Lavi,” say those Russian designers who have worked with the Chinese on this program, “but there are a number of other pieces of other aircraft or technologies that are part of the configuration that they have acquired from different sources.” Those who have observed the process of the J-10’s design also stress that the Chinese not only needed external help in acquiring the building blocks of the aircraft, but they needed assistance to synthesize all the elements they had acquired into a cohesive design.
Since SibNia is an Institute of design they are a reliable source, also now several israeli media outlet also admitt the israeli participation.
Too much people with a reliable background
MiG-23MLDSame old Russian BS.
The Russians often claim to have intimate knowledge about Chinese military projects.
They even claim to have been assisting as far back as the 1980s!
Some of them even claim to have been working with the Chinese for decades!
That’s when Russia and China were still Cold War enemies!
They claimed that because any fighter built in China has russian technology.
J-11 a Su-27 built under license in China
J-8I has some input from the Ye-152A and the russian R-11 engines built under license in China.
J-8II has some MiG-23 input from Egyptian MiG-23MS and it is evident in the ventral fin and the inlets that were reversed engineered as well it was powered by a reversed engineered R-13 that is an evolution of the R-11 it self.
The J-7 a MiG-21 itself.
the J-6 a MiG-19 built in china and so the list basicly proves China copies a lot the Russian stuff.
PL-12 has a russian seeker.
J-10 has a AL-31 and some aerodynamics changes made by the Russian institute SIBNIA.
JF-17 Russian engine and Russian involvement in the aerodynamics from MiG itself
But, being far away from Moscow has also had its drawbacks–namely that the several time zones between Novosibirsk and the Russian capital also meant that SibNIA was much farther away from sources of funding. For good or bad, Moscow is where the major money fountain in Russian aerospace is located, and SibNIA had to find ways to keep its coffers full and pay its staff.
This has forced SibNIA to go into the business of exporting its skill and expertise in aerodynamics and aircraft design technology, mostly to some of the major purchasers of Su-27/30 fighter aircraft. Most prominent among these has been the work that the institute has performed for aerospace enterprises in the People’s Republic of China (PRC). SibNIA officials would not discuss the details of their work for the Chinese, but they would talk about what they see as the state of Chinese aircraft design and what they see as the path that the PRC’s Chengdu aircraft enterprise took to develop the J-10 lightweight fighter.
Partners with Chinese Industry
SibNIA’s work with the PRC started out as helping the Chinese understand how the Su-27 and Su-30s they were purchasing from Russia actually performed and how Chinese industry could improve in its efforts to license assemble and support these aircraft. But SibNIA found itself acting as an instructor and scientific “guide” in helping the Chinese understand how to design a new aircraft from the bottom up.
According to SibNIA, the J-10 is a melting pot of foreign technology and acquired design methods. “The aircraft is more or less a version of the [Israel Aircraft Industries] Lavi,” say those Russian designers who have worked with the Chinese on this program, “but there are a number of other pieces of other aircraft or technologies that are part of the configuration that they have acquired from different sources.” Those who have observed the process of the J-10’s design also stress that the Chinese not only needed external help in acquiring the building blocks of the aircraft, but they needed assistance to synthesize all the elements they had acquired into a cohesive design.
The fact that SibNIA, which has arguably been one of the most advanced research facilities in all of the former USSR, had to essentially go fishing for ways to make money from external sources to keep the institute’s doors open also demonstrates the inherent weakness of Russia’s aerospace sector today. While the production enterprises and design bureaus are still able to come up with interesting design studies and paper airplanes, there is some question about whether or not the detailed, aerodynamic validation of these designs can be carried out in the same manner it was in the late 1970s when the Su-27 was a brand-new design. If Russia is not able to perform this baseline type of analysis, its ability to produce a next-generation aircraft design is in question.
What also remains to be seen is what SibNIA’s new role might be once the formation of the new Russian Unified Aircraft Co. (OAK) begins to take shape. The institute’s senior scientists told Aviation International News that since RSK-MiG general director Aleksei Fedorov–named by the Russian prime minister to lead this new conglomerate–has been closely associated with SibNIA most of his professional life, it is likely he will turn to it first to solve technical problems associated with the development of a next-generation fighter and other major programs.
But, in the short term, say SibNIA officials, there needs to be some plan or program that details their role in the development of a new-age fighter in Russia. In their view, the development and advancement of basic aerospace science and technology is something that needs to be nurtured over a long period of time and cannot be instantly created by throwing together various firms. “If OAK is to be a success, then we need to be a part of its plan for the future of Russian aerospace,” one senior manager concluded.
MiG-23MLDThis NEW is attested by MIG-23MLD, The J-10 deliveries are expected in 2008….should wait the full year:rolleyes:
China denied the claims but there is one reason the Russians claimed the J-10 was going to be sold to Iran The WS-10 is not for the J-10 they say the WS-10 is uncapable of powering the J-10 (at least as it is now) and still it is behind the Al-31, so to export the J-10 you need Russian engines and China asked Russia if the Al-31 was okay to be re-exported to Iran so therefore the Russians knew about the chinese intentions to re-export the Al-31 and if you watch this video you will see it
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jJoTNOqFrNk watch it and see why they said that
in fact they quoted Kommersant`s reporter Kostantin Lantratov
See the video is from an Israeli TV channel
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