MiG-23MLDTo have some data from Israel sources -which i really doubt-, dont turn the j-10 into a copy of the lavi, even dont mean that they got some very useful data to being incorporated to the j-10 project, maybe some basics on FBW and unstable design…, that IF they got info from the lavi
Each airframe has an unique FBW design, the j-10 airframe has a closer configuration to the EF , than with the Lavi…that means the j-10 is a EF copy, or a Rafale copy?
A program does not mean you can not use several different variables and constants, the FBW technology accepts reprograming and this is where israel did help the technology (program) and the reprogramming of the IAI Lavi FBW went into the new airframe of the J-10 like the Russians have done it with the Su-27 to Su-34
MiG-23MLDOh dear this reads like a cheap tabloid report, let me guess no proof and un-named sources? “It is not possible to independently verify the Russian comments.” – that little gem of a sentance from the article says it all…
Iran to buy 24 jet fighters from China
By Yossi Melman
Iran has signed a deal with China to buy two squadrons of J-10 fighter planes that are based on Israeli technology, the Russian news agency Novosti reported yesterday.
The 24 aircraft are based on technology and components provided to China by Israel following the cancellation of the Lavi project in the mid-1980s. The engines of the J-10 are Russian-made. Advertisement
The total cost of the planes is estimated at $1 billion, and deliveries are expected between 2008 and 2010.
The estimated operational range of the aircraft, with external fuel tanks, is 3,000 kilometers, which means Israel falls within their radius of operation.
During the 1980s, Israel Aircraft Industries, along with U.S. firms, developed a multi-role aircraft that was considered the most advanced of its type at the time.
Following the development of a prototype, the Reagan administration stopped funding, bringing about the cancellation of the joint project.
Israel then began selling some of the systems it had developed to various countries, including China.
Experts point out that even with these aircraft, Iran’s air force is no match for Israel’s or even Saudi Arabia’s.
Some analysts expressed criticism at what they called Israel’s “short sighted” and lax export policies.
This is not the first time Israeli components were part of weapons systems aimed at Israel. Some reports claimed that China sold Saudi Arabia long-range missiles containing Israeli know-how.
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/916335.html
It is not only Jane`s but also Novosti and even Haaretz from Israel, too many people claiming it from Russia and Israel even the US .
MiG-23MLDBoy you sure don’t know stuff. S-400 started from the S-300. Actually just renamed from PMU3. Its still heavily derived from the S-300 and parts of the project began in the Soviet Union. Pantsyr, yes. Brahmos from Yakhont, also developed during the Soviet Union. T-90 is heavily derived from the T-72. Lada development already began during the Soviet Union, and its hardly an innovative sub. So is Borei. Only one you can claim there is Yak-130. Su-35 is NOT NEW. Just a guzzed up Su-27 airframe.
Bull. In 2003, the Russian share is a mere 0.3 percent. I don’t find Mikron products in any celphone, DVD, PC, and other form of commercial electronics. Besides TSMC, there is UMC, SMC, etc,. And then you have the memory manufacturers. You’re only talking about starting .18 micron facilities when China is already at least two generations and has begun already at the 0.09 micron going to .065.
MORE BULL from you.
Russia supplied 300 Flankers to China but only a 176 of these were actually made in Russia and the rest were assembled in China with increasing degrees of domestic content. This supply started in 1992, and that’s already 16 years.
During all these years, there was never a point where Russia exceeded over 30 aircraft per year. As a matter of fact, the Chinese orders came in batches of 19 or 24 aircraft. The Venenzuelan aircraft were Su-30MK2s that the Russians built in advance for future Chinese orders that never came through.
As for India, Russia started supplying right from 2002, and that’s about six years already, averaging 10 to 12 aircraft a year. Some of the MKIs were assembled in India for a trial assembly run.
The only one living in the PAST Is YOU. The first few J-11s were from kits, but gradually and quickly, domestic content came in. In fact the Russians were marveled and were surprised by all the machine tools the Chinese were using that enabled them to produce planes with superior fit and finish compared to the Russians.
As a result of this KnAAPO made plans to upgrade their own facilities by purchasing tools using the money from the Chinese contracts—which led to a battle with Sukhoi, which wanted the money to develop PAK-FA.
All the choppers the Russians have are from the Soviet Union, and it is very doubtful that most of them are in working order.
The fact remained that according to the interview, Tarkshent was more than capable of fulfilling the Chinese contract, but the Russians moved the contract to somewhere within Russia instead, then asked the Chinese to fork over the increased costs. So obviously someone is lying.
You signed a contract, you live with it. If you want people to live up to their contracts, start living up on your own. We have seen this trick pulled by the Russians on the Indians, who are now starting to increasingly purchase Western material.
Crobato
The Russians are not the Soviet Union in fact ask a modern russian citizen and they will say to you they are Russians and their nation is the Russian federation.
Ilyushin is Russian was Soviet true but now is Russian they have all the rights for the Il-76s because the Ilyushin bureax of design is now in Russia and a property of Russians, however there was some wrangling among former soviets states because some did supply parts for Soviet aircraft, however Russia was the most populated and the most advanced of all the former soviet states.
Ukriane and Russia came to the conclusion the antonov Bureaux was in need of its Russian suppliers and market and they continue the coperation in aircraft manufacture but in reality the Antonov is an Ukranian firm tha does coperate with Russia
Only Ukraine was in some areas as powerful as Russia in fact if you see the Antonov bureax is un Ukraine and therefore an Ukrainian company, Lotarev (now Ivchenko or Progress) also is Ukranian, each republic claimed what was in its soil, and the Ilyushin bureaux was in Russia therefore it is Russian and not soviet any more.
http://www.ivchenko-progress.com/welcome.do?id=12
For the first time in the world, specially for this aircraft Ivchenko Progress Design Bureau designed a Д-27 propfan engine and Aerosila Joint Stock Company developed a CB-27 multi-blade contrarotating propfan ensuring 30% less fuel consumption in comparison with current turbofan engines. The AN-70 aircraft comprises the best features of the transports created by the Antonov’s staff for the 50-year activity. The aircraft performed its maiden flight on December 16, 1994. Today, preparation for the aircraft serial production is being proceeded at manufacture facilities of Kiev plant AVIANT and Omsk PA Polyot in cooperation with other aviation plants of the Russian Federation
http://www.antonov.com/about/history/index.xml
see that Antonov needs russian cooperation to build aircraft
MiG-23MLDWhich doesn’t show it.
The links you are referring don’t work at all.
And this is what I found in an article dated April 22, 2008.
Google translated.
“ROSOBORONEKSPORT” FORUM TO “HIGH TECHNOLOGY XXI CENTURY”
Yeah, its an exhibit.
Sorry, but the IL-76 is a product of the Soviet Union, and so are the Su-27 and a whole bunch of other stuff that has to rely on parts from the Ukraine, or Belaruss or Uzbekistan. A lot of engineers were from all over the SU, and not particularly just Russian.
The fact remains that the Russians failed to deliver on a contract. That’s obvious.
Just recently a company for Norway canceled their major tanker contract with SEVMASH. Obviously SEVMASH cannot complete their contracts at the time frame and cost the Norwegians wanted. You can see a pattern here.
They do work what happens you want to pretend they do not work if that is the way you defend your prestige it means you are not able to admitt your mistakes, it is obvious you prefer to live in a lie that admit mistakes any one with some inteligence will open the links and see you are lying, any one that checks the April 22 and 24 will see you are lying and the most important you are not just pretending they do not work but you are trying to fool others by fooling your self however the links they do work and the sad of this is you prefer to live in a lie just to live in a fantasy just because of pride
MiG-23MLDMore fuel to flame the fire of debate. Yay internets!
Wasn’t it kind of obvious that the J-10 was based off the Lavi in the first place? Not a direct copy mind you, but it the lavi design was definitely used as a starting point.
many Russian internt article have said that for several years, PARALAY in fact has an excellent article about the Russian and Israeli involvement in the J-10.
here we have another source even a video about the J-10 being a LAVI clone
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jJoTN…eature=related
[В дальнейшем стало известно, что в формировании облика нового самолета J-10 принимали участие специалисты израильской фирмы IAI, передавшие Китаю технологию своего истребителя «Лави in a later phase was known that Israeli IAI specialists did participate in the J-10 program transfering Lavi technology to China
http://www.testpilot.ru/china/chengdu/j/10/j10.htm
При этом планер J-10 разработан с учетом конструкции израильского истребителя Lavi. The J-10 airframe was based upon the IAI lavi
http://www.avia.ru/press/6270/
Как добавляет сайт Lenta.ru, истребитель J-10 разработан в Китае на основе израильского экспериментального самолета Lavi, документация по которому была передана Китаю в 90-х годах прошлого века.
The J-10 was based upon the IAI Lavi technical documentation that was sold to China in the last part of the XX century in the decade of the 1990s
MiG-23MLDOf all of your examples, this is the only aviation project that doesn’t date from the Soviet era. Keep in mind that almost all of the Russian projects with first flights after the fall of the Soviet Union were conceived and partially completed during the Soviet era.
Man please the Yak-130 is a post soviet era design flown after 1991 and flown five years after the collapse of the Soviet Union rooted is just a time of begining of the project but in reality it flew in Russia not in the Soviet Union but then the F-22 is also a Cold war design as well the Eurofighter, Gripen and Rafale or even the AH-64 or the C-130 or the F-15 and F-16 are cold war era fighters;)
MiG-23MLDStrictly speaking then, the overwhelming majority of all Western military aviation programmes has its roots in Cold War era as well.
Can we stop this stupid bickering about technicalities that every thread with participation by star49 seems to degenerate into? I seriously cannot fathom why people even read what he posts. It’s not worth the effort.
You are correct in fact many of China`s projects are also rooted in the cold war era, the JH-7 is one, the J-10 too since it has AL-31s and is based upon the Lavi and the JF-17 too since it is powered by the RD-33.
MiG-23MLDThe Su-27/J-11 stems from the Soviet era, and quite frankly, the status of Soviet era intellectual property is entirely uncertain. Moreover, in this case, it is hard to say whether a government-to-government treat, a Soviet era contract, or a post-Soviet era contract governs the continued Chinese production of the Su-27/J-11. In short, it is wrong to use provocative language, or to make anti-Chinese statements, because, after all, China might be well within its rights to continue production of the Su-27/J-11.
You can cite any number of Western licensed production deals, but the fact remains that the same rules don’t apply to Soviet, or even post-Soviet, deals because of fundamental differences in the rules of property and commerce. It might be entirely possible that all of the intellectual property pertaining to the design and production Su-27 now belongs in the public domain, and that any corporation or entity outside of Russia has every right to it.
The Original Chinese-Russian agreement dates from 1996, five years after the Soviet union`s collapse, so the agreement was signed between Russia and China not by the Soviet Union and China.
The first kits were delivered after 1996 and were only assemble several yeas after 1996 so your full argument is not logic.
Russia has totally the right of the Su-27 production
MiG-23MLDThe truth is Russia isn’t producing any 21st century weapons. All its weapons under production are Cold War types updated with more modern electronics.
Name one weapon that is actually designed in the 21st Century that isn’t rooted in some Cold War design.
Who cares. Read the industry standard semiconductor publications and I will ask what is the Russian share of the world semiconductor production which is less than 1% of the world.
Russia never produced over 30 Flankers per year after the Cold War. That’s a fact.
And the Russians can’t produce 80 medium class helicopters which is why they’re sending kits to China.
Which means that the Russians are lying when they claim Tarkshent isn’t capable of producing the IL-76. You only proved my point.
The Yak-130 was first flown in 1996, it is not a soviet era design.
Berkut is also the base of the PAk AF aslo flown in 1997
http://www.airwar.ru/image/idop/fighter/s37/s37-4.jpg
Ka-60 first flown in 1998
Tu-334 flown in 1999 for the first time
http://www.aviaport.ru/directory/aviation/207.html
Sukhoi super jet first flight 2008 May 19th
MiG-23MLDAnd still you have not produced a reputable article that officially states that Ross has filed a law suit. Please everyone knows how you intend to lie in the way you put Ross link with another article from a different news agency, and yet not a single article of such can be found in Ross website.
Mil-171 is an old design but the Russians are still using and selling it to everyone. A lot of designs are old but they are still good, e.g. Blackhawk.
What is swindle is Russians claiming that Tarkshent Aviation is not capable of providing the IL-76s to the Chinese contract when in fact, Tarkshent could. So the Russians are lying just to find a reason to reassign the contract somewhere else.
If you get the Russian version of the Rosoboronexport webapage and you click in Novosti or news of 22 and 24 April or in Обзор Прессы and later in 22 апреля 2008 г.
you get the news article Rosoboronexport has posted, effectively the news are from pravda but posted by Rosboronexport so Rosoboronexport is giving credit to Pravda and i can prove it to you
this is the home http://www.rusarm.ru/
and this is the news article http://www.rusarm.ru/news/lenty/lenta_08_04_22.html both are rusarm.ru, the home page is rusarm.ru and the page is rusarm.ru/news/lenty/lenta_08_04_22.html so your intent is first is not accurate niether logic and can be disproven quit easily
Also you are wrong the Il-76 is a russian product, Illyushin is Russian it is no more Soviet but a product of the Russian federation, therefore capitalist Russia has the right to say who ever Russia has to that the Illyiushin is now a Russian product and therefore only a product Russia can commercialize no swindle Crobato just capitalism
remember ROSOBORONEXPORT is the Russian defence export state corporation so if they posted that it is really a fact and no matter how you deny it you can not avoid that fact
MiG-23MLDYou are mixing military developments with Civilian.
You can sit tight that Pentagon won’t send out a military order out to the mexicans.
A “burning platform” existed within the electrical harness fabrication department at Lockheed Martin Aeronautics Company – Fort Worth (LM Aero – FW). During the Engineering and Manufacturing Development phase of the F-22 program, a decision was made to offload the fabrication of electrical harnesses for the F-22 mid-fuselage to Mexico.
http://www.wiringharnessnews.com/Articles/2000/F22/f22.htm
You are unaware of certain facts the US has a growing industry in mexico building weapon or weapon related items
He expresses also on the grounds of MD Helicopters in Monterrey we will work with many special processes, as hidroformado, laser cutting and chemical processes, and thus require more staff. “Cuando menos serán 50 en la segunda etapa y esperar a la tercera, que van ser otros sub-ensambles como arneses, que nos va a incrementar el número de empleados. “At the very least will be 50 new employees in the second stage and we wait for a third, which will be other sub-assemblies such as harnesses, we will increase the number of employees. Para finales del siguiente año, ya vamos a tener todos los procesos especiales trabajando y cuando menos la mitad de la transferencia de arneses”. By the end of next year, and we will take all special processes and working at least half the transfer of harnesses. ” dice. said.
Buenrostro destaca que algunos de estos procesos no hay quien los haga en Monterrey, ya que la FAA (Agencia Federal de Aeronáutica de Estados Unidos), exige que todos los proveedores de todas las partes estén certificados por ellos, o certificados en alguna norma internacional aeroespacial, cosa que no es frecuente en México. Buenrostro stresses that some of these processes there is no one who made at Monterrey, since the FAA (Federal Aviation Agency in the United States), requires that all providers of all parties are certified by them, or any international standard certificates in aerospace , Which is rare in Mexico.
Buenrostro señala que todos los fuselajes van a Mesa, Arizona, donde está la empresa madre, ahí se completan, les ponen las turbinas y todo lo demás. Buenrostro said that all airframes are going to Mesa, Arizona, which is the parent company, there are completed, they put the turbines and everything else.
El primer fuselaje armado en Monterrey va a ser embarcado a la Armada de Estados Unidos. The first fuselage armed in Monterrey will be shipped to the U.S. Navy.
http://www.industrialcommunity.com.mx/01/01ENE/ed_ene-01.htm
MiG-23MLDYou are so awfully naive.
Its not whether the parent country allowed. To answer your questions, all the licensing countries built all what they wanted, and its the parent countries that happily provided. Its not what the parent country DECIDED for them. If the US wants more Harriers, the British are more than happy to provide them. You have no idea what licensing is, its the licenser—the CUSTOMER—that decides what they want.
Here is the reality, from an article by UPI, which is at least some steps above Russian rags that take Internet photos without attribution.
In other words, something more like the Mil-171 deal is the way to go.
I doubt that Russia will ever win in court, but some compromise will be made, possibly in terms of monetary payment or allowing Russian suppliers to participate and supply for the J-11B program (engines, parts of fuselage, avionics).
Technology transfers from Russia? The Su-27 technology is not completely Russian in the first place, but shared with other former Soviet Republics.
Because the Chinese are in a hurry. You honestly think that’s the only aircraft they had plan? The J-11B is nothing more than a stop gap to their own 5th generation project.
What Russian tech the J-10 other than the engines which is changeable to something else? The Russians are still sore that the Chinese did not pick Phazotron for its radar and choose not to equip the plane and buy R-77s and R-73s for it.
Who does the con job here?
Pinkov interviewed Tarkshen Aviation and Tarkshent claimed they were more than capable of producing the IL-76s the Chinese contracted for. But the Russians want the money to themselves (Tarkshent is in Kazakhastan) and moved the contract inside Russia, which however lacked the facilities to manufacture the plane without a massive investment to build the facilities. Now guess who is helping SAC to build a new transport plane.
The Chinese had enough of these con games the Russians pull trying to get more money AFTER a contract is signed, the same tricks the Russians pulled on the Indians at least twice.
Crobato please do not use these childish games you know perfectly that when any nation pays that nation will build the aircraft they want in the numbers they want, however the Russians are suing China because China is not paying for the aircraft they are building, also the Mi-17 is an old helicopter and China is assembling kits and it`s paying it is not like in the Su-27 where Russia has already informed China that the J-11B production is a violation because it broke some parts of clauses of the original agreement
In fact if SAC is helped by Taskhent Aviation is another company with another country, it is not Russia and a Russian company doing busines is not a swindle is simple capitalism
MiG-23MLDOf course they are going to complain like little babies, because China is not buying their stuff anymore.
There are parts to the contract, like the purchase of ToT, the parts to the aircrafts and the royalty for 200 units of flankers. The only one they canceled is the parts to the aircrafts. It’s nonsensical for China to keep on wasting money on junks like su-27sk. Or do you suggest that China should keep on paying for the parts that it’s just going to trash anyways?And in this case, the royalty for 200 units of flankers are already paid for. We don’t know what kind of arrangement they put in after the 200, but we are not at that point yet.
those are technology they already paid for. That’s where the 200 units of royalty + ToT are for. Bottom line, Russian pride is hurt here.
they are not exporting any J-11Bs! They are not even allowed to export the Russians built su-27s without Russian approval.
that’s rubbish, since we know WS-10A is already in mass production. There are avic1 articles on this. So, if they are behind su-35 in Russians opinion, then don’t be worried.
they simply decided to go with 100% indigenization.
China will simply not build any more flankers if it has to accept a fighter that does not fit their requirements. Either way, they are not going to pay for more Russian components. Do you really think China will risk flying Su-27SMK level fighters against F-15K, MKI and super hornets? Russians knew this, so they tried to offer upgrade programs, which still simply were not good enough. Then, they tried to cut off the supply of certain parts for J-11B, which then got replaced by Chinese parts. Nothing worked, that’s why they sued.There are only so many more weapon systems worth buying. Why should China buy more weapon systems that are below their requirements? It’s totally nonsensical. Mi-171 deal is different, it’s signed like the Z-9 agreement. They can do 100% localization + export as many as they need in the future.
man more fantasies to justify a terrible policy by the Chinese.
The agreement was made considering resposabilities and limits, China withdrew unilaterally and said we do not want more Su-27s, the issue is the J-11 is a Russian airframe with Chinese parts built thanks to technology transfers made by Russia.
Russia up to a degree knew the risks, the shell of the J-11 is not Chinese in fact it shows how limited are the Chinese in aerospace and aerodynamics, why use a limited old airframe to fit new weapons and avionics?
why not make a new airframe? but what we can expect if basicly all the Chinese aircraft have Russian tech.
the issue is simple China wants to con Russia under the excuse the subsystems are made in China, the Russians will sue not because they need more sales, no they sue because China should build its own fighter, but it is evident that all the chinese fighters need Russian experts so the Russians are not going to abandon the military lnks with China still there is money to make in China because China soon will be at least 15 years behind Russia when the PAK FA flies and already the Su-35BM is 10 years ahead of any Chinese design.
even the J-10 has Russian tech and still won`t beat the Su-30MKI and Su-35BM, the JH-7 still is uncapable to compete with the Su-24 and much less with the Su-34 and China still has no Tu-22M or Tu-160 equivalent and the J-8II won`t be better than upgraded MiG-29s or MiG-31s
MiG-23MLDAnd somehow it’s not in Ross’s official web page in the last three months while it mentions the Mil-171 license agreement? LOL.
What makes you think the news can actually be trusted? News agencies like Pravda have reported arms deals that actually never went through. If anything Russian news agencies have never learned accountability of facts like the media does in the West—and the latter still often fails at that. And its very funny to see you link to news sites that use pictures of planes taken (stolen) from the Internet and don’t attribute their sources—a trait of amateur, not professional journalism.
Look at this one. Where is the attribution for the pics?
http://www.arms-tass.su/?page=article&aid=53875&cid=121
These J-11 pics were taken from the forums.
Now read the bottom of the article. The concern is about the plane being exported to other countries. Has China exported any? In court you cannot accuse someone of violating a contract on the belief that someone will do so in the future tense. This is just an indication that the Russians don’t know how the legal system works, or what a contract means—considering how they broke their own contracts with the Chinese on the IL-76 issue, why the Algerians are pissed off on the quality of their MiG-29s, on how the they suddenly raised prices on the Su-30MKI and the Indian carrier above the negotiated contracts or why the Indians are short. [Funny how the Russians “trust” the Indians, when the Russians warned the Indians the ownership of the Brahmos source code or the fact they don’t even let the Indians inside the reactor room of the leased Charlie class submarine.]
Bring it on I say, on an international court, if you like to expose how the Russians themselves don’t abide by their own agreements.
If you claim that a legal suit has been filed, its very simple to prove that. Name the court where it is filed in, plus the date and time. Which country and city the case is filed in. Simple as that.
And another thing, filing a suit does not mean you can win it. Even if the Russians did file suit, like they did against a number of countries that manufactured the AK-47, its not winnable. Filing suits is easy. Being winnable isn’t.
It is Rosoboronexport it is part of the April news of course you need another excuse in fact they are part of the archive news of 22 and 24 april and if you look in the Russian version old news you will find them.
http://www.roe.ru/news/lenty/lenta_08_04_24.html
and the proof is the home page for rosobooexport is http://www.roe.ru see how both pages start with http://www.roe.ru
The deal is not like you are saying the J-11B is not more than a copy and illegal copy of the Russian technology illegally and treacherously copied.
If you remember the F-15 deal Japan never sold or built more than what was allowed by the contract who does not know about international law is you.
When you have a product and you buy the license it does not mean you own the product it simply means you are allowed to build a limited number of examples only that and all the examples of Japan, India, Germany, US show they always respect the number of examples allowed.
Did the US build more Harriers than the number allowed by England?
Did Norway, the Netherlands, Denmark and Belgium build more F-16s than the allowed by the then General Dynaics now Lockheed Martin?
Did Italy build more speys than the allowed by Rolls Royce when they built the AMX?
Did India build more Jaguars or MiG-27 than the allowed by Russia, France and England?
Did Japan build more F-4s and F-15s than the allowed by the US?
Did England build more AH-64s than those allowed by the US?
Did Chile build more C101 Mirlo than the allowed by Spain?
Does Brazil build more Eurocopter helos than the allowed by Eurocopter?
Does Mexico build more Fuselages than the allowed by Bombardier or MD helicopters?
Did Turkey build more F-16s than the allowed by the US?
Did Israel build more J-79s than the alllowed by the US?
Did Sweden and Saab build more Pratt & Whitney JT8D engine than the allowed by the US to power their Viggens, or GE F404 for their Gripens?
Did India build more MiG-21 than the allowed by Russia?
The answer is not because in the west as in many other countries the norm is respect the license
MiG-23MLDThe AN/APQ-120 wasn’t operational until the mid-70’s.
my apollogies i thought it was operational in 1967
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