That´s the f#@%&*g problem with Brazil´s military industry and with the whole country. They are always developing something for decades and they always come with nothing or a big white elephant.
AMX is ineffective.
Osorio was totally made with foreing parts.
The Space Program is a joke. As they say in Brazil “uma piada de mau gosto”.
The nuclear submarine is a white elephant. Today Mr. Lula makes a lot of noise about it but it´s just B.S. .
Piranha lacks performance.
They claim now that they developed a anti-radiation missile similar to the american Shrike a Vietnan era missile, just superb:eek: .Brazil lacks money, expertise and the most important of all:
Big balls to move foward these kind of programs.
Brazilians love to say that “Brazil is the country of the future” but it is just an ilusion from a people that has no acess to a good education.
What you are saying it is true, but also you are overdemanding too much from Brazil, as a fellow latin american, i can say to you brazil`s situation is not unique, it is shared by all the other latin american nations.
However if it is true we need more education, expertise and more will to achieve better results also i can say to you that Brazil`s space program has followed the right path, perhaps there is more room for improvement, no doubt about it, but you are forgeting general conditions in the technology market.
Let us analize the cases:
A)AMX, this aircraft is a good example where Brazil did follow the right path, they got some technological expertise even if the aircraft is not a Panavia Tornado or even like the JH-7 or Mitsubishi F-1 Now you are overcritical, let us put the case of the IA-63 Pampa, this aircraft has been purchased in lesser numbers than the AMX and only the direct copy of the spanish Mirlo by ENAER with local designation A-36 has been as succesful.
China has taken more than 25 years into putting the JH-7 in low levels of productions and the aircraft basicly is obsolete, the AMX flew very fast and was put very quickly in service.
B)The space program is also a good example where Brazil has followed the right path, Brazil is the only latin american nation poised to be a space power in less then 20 years. You can say yes but we are not yet, however the space program is folowing the right path involving Russia, Ukraine and China in the brazilian space program and the fact the VLS is going to give way to the new series of rockets
Brasil quer lançar dois satélites em 2010
Ano é alvo para primeiro vôo de foguete VLS melhorado e de parceria Brasil-Ucrânia.
Após deixar projeto da Estação Espacial Internacional, agência quer “foco” no programa
This says Brazil wants tol launch two satellites in 2010, and it will be the first launch of the improved VLS (the satellite launcher vehicle) after leaving the brazilian participation in the ISS
E o Pnae diz que, planos de lançadores, o Brasil só tem mesmo dois. O primeiro e mais conhecido é o velho VLS-1 (Veículo Lançador de Satélites), criado em 1980 e que fez três tentativas de vôo em 1997, 1999 e 2003 (nessa última ocasião, produzindo um acidente que matou 21 engenheiros em Alcântara), nenhuma com sucesso.
O segundo é o VLS-1b, uma atualização do antigo projeto concebida com auxílio de engenheiros russos para ampliar a capacidade do lançador brasileiro. Na versão original, todos os estágios (grosso modo, “andares” do foguete) usavam combustível sólido. Na versão 1b, os antigos terceiro e quarto estágios são trocados por um novo terceiro estágio, movido a combustível líquido — tecnologia mais adequada para a colocação correta de satélites em órbita.
here it is said Brazil has improved the original VLS with russian tech and the new version of the VLS has liquid fuel stages, even despite the first three attempts failed in 1997, 1999 and 2003, the later one when an accident killed 21 engineers.
http://g1.globo.com/Noticias/Ciencia/0,,MUL53085-5603,00.html
in few words Brazil will achieve goals only when they are economically viable, the VLS is becoming viable using Russian tech simply because it shortens developing time and get tech transfers
and already Brazil has sold more than 100 E-jets
Very likely brazil will build the nuclear submarine but the brazilian government has to have some economic profit to do it like Embraer did it
http://www.viafanzine.jor.br/tecnologia.htm
Do you think France will sell State of the Art Nuclear Technology Cheap! (i.e. France doesn’t sell anything cheap!) Regardless, even with help from other parties it will require billions of dollars and decades to develope and field…………..:eek: Funny, both countries want to spend billions and decades on a couple of sunmarines. Yet, can’t field an adequate Air Force????:p
I do not think brazil will take so long, why? simple modern nuclear submarines are basicly old technology the first nuclear submarines were fielded in 1954, they are not a new technology modern nuclear submarines are refinements of old technology to replaced worn out and old models.
Brazil can field very well have a prototype submarine by 2020 and put it into service in 2025.
What you forget is as the Soviet Union desintegrated all its know how was spreaded all around the world, currently we are seeing the same in the US aerospace technology, Brazil also is a very practical nation, what they can not build they buy, until they have mastered the technology, by 2020 Brazil very likely will be making 100% made aircraft with exception probably of the engines.
Your are claming brazil can not afford to have a powerful air force, but you miss a point brazil is not looking to buy but to build, Brazil wants to buy the Su-35 if it gives them tech transfers, they are willing to buy PAK FA if Russia sells them some of the technology.
Now Brazil has small jets build in international programs, the AMX, the ERJ-145 AEW with ericsson radar, small trainers build by Embraer, so you miss the point that is Brazil is not in a Hurry to build military aircraft but economiclly successful jets Because currently brazil is the fourth largest civil aircraft maker in the world.
an Embraer jet being built in São José dos Campos Brazil
http://www.sjc.sp.gov.br/english/investidor/pqindustrial.asp
Brazil has built submarines, here is one of the submarines built by Brazil
Also Argentina is pooling resources with Brazil to support programs they can not entirely finance
MiG-23,
I realise that you are the resident cheering squad for Southern America and good for you on that score, BUT, please put into context the level of technical challenge that is involved in taking a submarine building capability still in its infancy in both Argentina and Brazil and evolving this to an industrial capability to design not just build a nuclear-powered fleet submarine.
There is a reason why the Indian Advanced Technology Vehicle is still little more than a research project decades after its inception and it has little to do with a lack of nuclear expertise in India. The IN at least had the presence of mind to lease a nuclear powered boat for a bit and get some experience on how a nuke boat is handled which puts them far in advance of where either South American service is.
There is also a reason why the PLAN has been deploying Han class SSN’s for the past couple of decades and that isn’t because they are under any illusion that the Han is a competetive design. Its because developing the technology for the creation of a comprehensive capable design has taken them years and they have only relatively recently been able to materialise that technology in a new class of boat.
Just having some fancy graphics of how a notional Arg/Braz SSN may look is absolutely no basis for the belief that such a design could be realised in 10 years.
If you read this article
Brasil e Argentina vão construir submarino de propulsão nuclear
Brasil e Argentina construirão juntos um submarino de propulsão nuclear, segundo anunciou o ministro brasileiro da Defesa, Nelson Jobim, em declarações publicadas neste domingo em Buenos Aires. “Conversamos com a ministra (argentina da Defesa) Nilda Garré e com os três comandantes militares argentinos e decidimos constituir uma empresa binacional para produzir o reator compacto” para propulsar o submarino, disse Jobim ao jornal Clarín.
Here it says Argentina and Brazil will build a nuclear submarine according to the argentine press three defences generals and the defence minister of Argentina agreed with brazil`s defence minister Jobim to make a submarine based upon Argentina`s nuclear technology and french submarine hull technology
No projeto, os argentinos contribuirão com sua experiência nuclear para a produção de um reator compacto e os brasileiros, com o combustível atômico e com a estrutura não nuclear do veículo, que terá tecnologia francesa. “Com o presidente (da França) Nicolas Sarkozy discutimos na semana passada uma aliança estratégica: decidimos criar condições para uma sociedade bilateral destinada a fabricar no Brasil a parte não nuclear do submarino”, informou Jobim.
here they say the nuclear reactor powering the submarine will be designed by Brazil and Argentina
O reator de propulsão seria produzido pela binacional argentino-brasileira”, acrescentou Jobim, que fez o anúncio em Buenos Aires durante a visita oficial de dois dias realizada pelo presidente do Brasil, Luiz Inácio Lula da Silva
here it is said Jobim proposed to Argentina the creation of a common defence program for South america where all the weapons build are made by south american companies..
Jobim disse também que o Brasil propôs à Argentina a criação de um Conselho de Segurança da América do Sul para centralizar na região a produção, capacitação e consumo em matéria de defesa.
http://noticias.terra.com.br/brasil/interna/0,,OI2562569-EI306,00.html
I can agree with you but any way i think if there is the will to make the submarine they will succeed because both nations have the nuclear tech to achieved brazil has the enriched nuclear fuel technology and Argentina advanced reactor technology, they even sell nuclear reactors to Australia
Honeywell is designing jet engine parts in Mexicalli, Baja california norte, Mexico for the A-350
http://www.skyscraperlife.com/transportes-y-comunicaciones/5966-industria-aerospacial-en-mexico-3.html
http://www.cnnexpansion.com/negocios/2007/11/09/turbinas-al-rojo-vivo/view
Some pictures of the Bombardier factory
sourceshttp://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=386303&page=8
http://queretaro.gob.mx/noticia.php?historico=true&clave=2498&pageNum_noticias=1209
Personally, I see little advantage for Argentina and Brazil to spend Billions on just one or two SSN’s?! Which, would very likely be inferior to most currently deployed SSK’s or SSN’s! For example considering the Technology, Resources, and Experience available. Does anyone really believe this new South American Submarine would be the equal to the many advance SSK’s coming out now? (i.e. some with AIP) As for SSN’s I wouldn’t even waste my time to debate the issue! As a matter of fact to develope such subs is a stretch for both India and China. At least they have the resources to attempt such a great under taking……….
The building of the submarine is worthed even if the submarine is not the most advanced, why simply because as in the past making such machine will mean getting better technology and the capability to build subsequent submarines.
source http://www.defesabr.com/Mb/mb_meios_futuros_Parte6.htm
http://www.naval.com.br/novas/news2005-03_04.htm
Why it is good? basicly because if Brazil quits the submarine race simply it will become another nation who is a buyer and not a seller, it is better to sell than to buy.
here is for example the very early sonda rocket built by Mexico in the early 1960s and the Argentine Condor II missile, for example Argentina, Mexico and Brazil started almost at the same time the space race with sonda rockets but only Brazil has achieved better results why? simply because not quiting means developing the technology and getting the expertise quiting on the gounds it will be inferior is simply letting others do your job and to end buying foreign tech which is more expensive than local designs
here is the Condor II argentine missile
the mexican rocket sonda of 1960, the SCT-1
Mexico and Argentina quit the race, Brazil did not see the results
Brazil has a real satellite launcher
Mexico pays more in its satellite program than Brazil however it has inferior technology than Brazil in fact the AEXA (mexican space agency) was just recently formed, for Brazil is better not quit the race for a nuclear submarine
Not only am I not from the USA, I’ve never even been there, & certainly do not see Mexico from a US point of view.
At last! Some sense!
None of which has any connection whatsoever to the possible purchase of fighters by Mexico. Can’t you get it through your head that not everything should be seen through a prism of military rivalry?
man let us analize why Mexico wants F-16s or F-18s, any drug dealer will fly aircraft that have speeds at the most of 900km per hour, even LEARJETS or HAWKs
however the average drug dealer operates something more like this with a speed of 600km/h
in the close support the Mexican insurget groups do not fly any jet or aircraft in fact with some gunships and light aircraft they can deal with them
Why then they need a fighter of Mach 2 or one of Mach 1.8?
Logic simply other nations are modernizing with Su-30s, Mirage 2000 or F-16s in south america, so obviously in Mexico there is a need for at least a token force of modern fighters.
However the Mexican government is trying to adquire an aircraft manufacturing capability similar to Brazil that can produce even AWACs and light attack aircraft, it is obviously a reaction to the latest developments in South america and the need of creating an industry that gives jobs to the mexican people.
In fact the ERJ-145 has military versions, like the Bombardier challenger that also is going to be build in Mexico
Interesting thread on the state of relations and economics on the Southern American continent. You’ll forgive a facile observation but the discrepency in views and apparent goals stated by the contributors here seems to torpedo the credibility of your ‘United States of South America’ vision to a very large extent MiG-23. I dont think you can get around that no matter how many pictures of ‘indigenous’ Southern American cars, helicopters etc you post up.
To the point anyway – joint Brazillian/Argentinian SSN’s. Both have some experience building HDW designs or mods thereof….neither has actually designed a boat from scratch. The French are willing to chip in with some assistance all well and dandy….do you think they’ll fax over the Barracuda engineering blueprints at the merest request?. Nope!.
The scale of the engineering challenge here CAN NOT be glossed over. SSN’s, before you even get close to cutting steel for the hull, have to have a comprehensive support infrastructure built up ashore. You cant simply lash together a suitably sized modified SSK hull, drop in a nice compact reactor module, head it out to sea and then start thinking about things like shore facilities!.
Simply put the amount of work involved here cannot be understated and even that huge effort will only create a first-generation boat. The PRC have been in the nuke game for decades and they are only just, open source media to be believed, getting to a point in sub design that the superpowers were at twenty years ago.
Simply put it is great news, for them, that Argentina and Brazil are looking at developing SSN’s – both nations naval services have a requirement for deployed, high endurance, sea denial capability and the SSN is the natural platform. To imply that the project is anything other than a long-term feasibility exercise at this point is greatly exaggerating your chances!
I understand your skeptism, it is natural, however i am not so pessimistic as you are, Brazil and Argentina have enough nuclear research to create a nuclear reactor suitable for a nuclear submarine, one of the reasons why in the past they did not built it was simply politics.
The US has its max political power in south america in the 1960s, the US always influenced the area to avoid a weapons race and more independent south america economically and politically.
However in 2008 South america has become a more independent political entity, and the United south america will eventually happen in a time frame of 20-30 years from now.
The nuclear submarine is expected to be in the ocean in just one decade and the first operational satellite launcher rocket in 10-20 years, all this indicates that a common currency and free movement of people within south american nations will happen in a time period of 30 years.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ThEzX83Mj4&feature=related
BRASILIA, Brazil: A new international parliament was born on Thursday — one that can pass no laws and so far has few members.
Brazil’s President Luiz Inacio Lula da Silva outlined lofty — if unspecific — goals for the new Mercosur Parliament at an inaugural ceremony for it in Brazil’s Senate chambers.
Silva said the parliament would promote “democracy, liberty and peace and sustainable development with social justice” as well as encouraging integration among the five Mercosur nations, which have struggled for years to give some muscle to a trade bloc that has served more as a symbol of regional identity than as a functioning South American free-trade zone
Initially, the parliament will have no power other than persuation, serving as an advisory committee for the foreign ministers of Argentina, Brazil, Uruguay, Paraguay, and Venezuela.
Each nation’s congress will name 18 deputies to the 90-member body, which is supposed to begin meeting in March at its permanent home in the Uruguayan capital of Montevideo. Only a few so far have been named. They also have to decide how it will function and what it will talk about.
In the long term, the parliament is intended to help unify legislation in the member nations and foster greater cooperation.
It was not immediately clear how legal unification might be achieved or what form it might take, although for years there has been a discussion of a common Mercosur currency along the lines of the European Union’s euro. Monetary officials of the five countries were scheduled to meet Friday in Brazil’s capital to discuss ways of avoiding use of the dollar in commercial transactions within Mercosur.
Plans call for direct election of Mercosur deputies by 2014.
http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2006/12/14/america/LA_GEN_Brazil_Mercosur_Parliament.php
I have to disagree with the write up on the website you provided a link to. It bears more resemblance to the Gipsland Airvan than the Cessna 208. Is there any update on the turbine powered variant?
It is going to be a turboprop version, and it is going to be denominated the Gavilan G-358T however it seems to be still in the drawingboards
All of which is completely irrelevant to Mexicos military. Whatever happens to the US economy, it will still be able to squash anyone who even looks hard at Mexico. Geography, m’boy, geography. And Brazils military remains of no significance whatsoever to Mexico. THEY ARE NOT MILITARY RIVALS. Might as well claim that Italy has to boost its armed forces in response to an Indonesian build-up.
Buying a few fighters has nothing to do with Mexicos aerospace industry. Mexico spends about 0.5% of GDP on the armed forces, & there’s no sign of it increasing, because there’s no need. The threats are civil unrest & organised crime – only.
Your talk of military rivalry is inappropriate. Except for officers who look enviously at the more & better equipment Brazil has, planners in Mexico take no account whatsoever of Brazils armed forces. They don’t matter to Mexico. A war between them is as unthinkable as a war between Poland & Paraguay. They have nothing to quarrel about, & there is nowhere they interface.
Your words reflect what americans thinks about Mexico, not what Mexicans think about Mexico.
Mexico is a Latin American nation, the Mexican Government knows Mexico won`t start a war, has no weaponry basicly the mexican army is a anti guerrilla force that is used against local insurgents and drug dealers, that is true.
However Mexico has a limited weapons manufacturing capability, currently Mexico builds fuselages of US military Helos for McDonnel Douglas Helicopters, electric harnesses for F-16s and F-22 on one hand these are built by foreign companies and in the other hand some ships, rockets, light aircraft, UAVs and guns by mexican firms.
this is a Oaxaca class ship built in mexico
Mexico has bought Brazilian aircraft and the impression they caused was great, Embraer has become an example of success, this and the economic competition by China forced mexico to modernize its technology, mexico has been forced to increase the number of designers and high tech research centers, some do work for foreign firms or off shots of western firms, however as brazil advances and China takes more markets the Mexican government knows in order to create jobs they need tech transfer or at least trained specialists in the fields of high tech.
These technicians in some instances have created local weapons like the S4 Ehecatl UAV, as time passes the Mexican military willl have more people capable of creating weapons and also will demand better weapons, this might take between 20-40 years however the seeds are already planted, that is the reason the the mexican navy has demanded to create a naval missil, bought Russian SA-7s. courted Russia for the installation of a Mi-8 manufacturing plant in Veracruz mexico and by Ukraine when Ukraine offered to build Antonov aircraft in Zacatecas Mexico .
In Mexico there is a desire of not being left behind by Brazil in terms of the tech race and make a nation with more designing capability in terms of high tech to resist more the US economic crises
Brazil is militarily irrelevant to Mexico, & always has been. It is not a threat or military competitor. Nor is Venezuela, nor any other Latin American countries. Mexico has no external threats or military competitors. Mexico is quite content to be “left behind” by every significant Latin American country. It has been for decades. It doesn’t matter, it doesn’t make any difference. The USA will not permit any stronger (than Mexico) country to intervene in Mexico, & its other neighbours are so much poorer & weaker that they cannot possibly pose any threat. Mexicos armed forces exist for internal security, border patrol, EEZ protection, & national pride. What else would they do? Invade Guatemala?
That is the Current state of affairs, however you are not realizing that Brazil is going to build a nuclear submarine and Russia has offered a partnership to Brazil in the PAK FA, besides in Mexico they want to create an aerospace industry, this means at the long run is Brazil will become a more powerful country in fact it has the fourth largest aircraft industry ( commercial aircraft ) in the world and will become a space power in less than 15 years, very likely Mexico will remain for at least in the near future an US ally however it does not mean that the development of an aerospace industry at the long run means in Mexico they do no want to catch up with Brazil by the way the US economy shows signs of a weaking economy that won`t be able to remain to continue its past role in latin america very long.
Embraer C-390
Already GE has developed an research center in Queretaro Mexico using mexican engineers to help develop a new engine or the A-380, this means that in Mexico in few decades an economy with more technological development and this will need a more powerful aerospace industry and military
Mexico City— General Electric Infrastructure Queretaro expanded its
engineering center, specialized in the design of airplane turbines
and ecologic energy generation turbines.
This expansion will generate around 600 jobs for Mexican engineers
recently graduated from different colleges, the Company’s officers
said.
Around 1,050 engineers in aeronautics industry are currently working
at this plant in Queretaro.
“This project not only means employment generation, but also the
development of technology in Mexico”, said President Felipe Calderon
in the Center’s inauguration.
Giovanni Aloi Timeuz, Director of GE Energia in Mexico said that
they will focus on making space industry evolve; among their plans
stands out the new GX turbine, “in which design more than 120
engineers participate and will achieve a 20% reduction in fuel and
is also less noisy”.
Mexico’s aeronautics sector generated around 20,000 jobs and
contributed to exports with US$2.6 billion. General Electric is
planning to invest US$100 million in Mexico only this year.
Source:CNNExpansión
But Mexico doesn’t need PGMs, or a powerful strike capability! It needs fighters, for enforcing sovereignty over its airspace.
In latin america things are changing fast it has been said that recently Russia offered partnership to Brazil in the PAK FA, nowadays the countries that are not following strictly Washington are buying Russian or European in some cases Chinese like venezuela`s radars, in two or three decades the situation might be different but it seems that Brazil wants to become the ipso fact new military power in South american and eventually a new miliatry and economic power, this meas that in Mexico they will try to catch up and with hot things like Venezuela`s stand a new role will emerge
“É um claro sinal de vontade política. Caberá a nós preencher esse espaço de idéias”, avisou. O ministro comentou com a reportagem que uma delegação russa deve vir a Brasília ainda no primeiro semestre do ano. Na mesa de negociações, ganha força a colaboração nos planos civil e militar. Na área de defesa, está “o desenvolvimento de um protótipo de um caça de 5ª geração”, o chamado PAK-FA T-50. “Teremos muito a ganhar em termos de capacitação e aprendizagem”, disse. Mangabeira também cita a cooperação espacial para veículos lançadores e na operação de satélites geoestacionários. “São as áreas mais promissoras”, acredita. Ele destaca ainda a parceria num novo modelo de ensino médio, transferência de tecnologia não-controlada para pequenas empresas e projetos de geração hidrelétrica. Na Rússia, Mangabeira se reuniu com assessores do presidente eleito Dmitri Medvedev, até então diretor do Projeto Nacional de Desenvolvimento, uma espécie de PAC russo.
http://www.defesanet.com.br/md1/fr-ru_22.htm
It is very likely that those events are also been followed by Mexico that clearly see a potential south american power in the making in Brazil and the fact brazil already is an aerospace power.
This means that very likely in Mexico they are trying to do not be left behind, i do not think what what they want is simply a counter guerrilla force they probably are aware that they need a different role in the modern world.
At the long run Mexico is trying to become an industrial power
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