My god, what is the helmet sight for? Apparently even the basics escape hyou. In the first place, it is used to allow the pilot to see and target symbology outside of the field of view of HUD. The radar’s field of view is actually much greater than the HUD’s. Even in BVR, an HMS has an advantage because the radar’s FOV is more than the HUD’s so you can lock to a target outside of the HUD’s view.
If you have 60 degrees boresight how much of an advantage it is over 90 deg boresight, huh? Just a slight twist of the head in real world terms. Given the way the pilot is tied down to his hardness, the large size and inconvenience of the HMS, its not even easy to turn your neck a full 90 degrees in order to target something that is flying perpendicular to you. This has limited and debatable value, given that it is important for the pilot to maintain both his view of the enemy and that of his instruments at the same time.
Then what is the point of having boresight over 90 degs? You are not like a possessed Linda Blair who can twist her head around completely.
Even if you see a plane through your eyes, what makes you think its a friendly or foe? Human judgment when it comes to friend or foe identification has proven to be quite historically dubious in the face of blue on blue accidents. Hence you have to rely on the plane’s IFF to be absolutely sure, you’re not shooting down a comrade. So you have to rely on your nose IFF, and that means the target has to be in the view point of your nose, especially in the upper part of it (note the antennas sticking on top of the nose). This means you cannot fully exploit all that FOV without getting into the IFF’s FOV first. This might work within 30 or 60 degrees off the bore of your nose, but right at the side, at 90 deg? I kind of doubt that.
Statements like what you just said on the Derby showed your complete ignorance on missiles, because what you are saying is pretty much standard and universal with all BVR missiles SARH or ARH. Even the Sparrow has close combat modes.
By the way, if you are in a position that you would think you can launch a rear ward missile to an opponent in the rear, in the first place, you would already be dead, because he would have launched his missiles first the moment he got you on his nose.
Talk about selling things you really don’t need.
More excuses Crobato to claim the J-10 is almost an equivalent, however operational experieces show that difference of 2/3 in the head seeker`s field of view can mean victory of defeat, the PL-9 barely has 120 degrees in the head seeker`s field of view the Python IV has 180 deg and the Python V has 220 deg of field of view.
The PL-9 is limted to frontal attacks always with the J-10 nose in front of the target, the Python V or IV carrier can always fight and down any enemy that has just over passed and failed to launch a missile before it gets a good oportunity once more and gets the J-10 with its nose pointing at the Python V or IV carrier but of course this is something that in your fantasies you can not see.
Data link is not an inconvinience as you claim since the Derby has its own head seeker and modern aircraft use data link to lock on and cue targets via other sources today`s Gripen can do it.
The Derby can even be enslaved to the HMS
You conviniently also forget the J-10 also has a radar and this can be jammed and having no data link or Lock on after launch limits it more than the F-16s with Derby or Python IV or V, in fact data link allows the fighter to swith off its own radar😉
By the way the Python can hold 70Gs more Gs than what the PL-9 can hold in fact twice the Gs
In few words crobato that difference of 60 deg or 100 deg means the J-10 either needs to point the nose at the target and maneuvre and lose speed or over pass the target and being hit by a missile lauched at it
this F-16 has enough weapons to beat the more agile J-10
the J-10`s main weakness are its weapons that basicly are 1980s or early 1990s, far behind any eurocanard that are armed with ASRAAMs, IRIS-T, AIM-120C or Meteor and without supercuise the Eurofighter is in a more advanced technological stage than the J-10
The Derby does, being a radar guided missile. But IR misisles do not use datalinks. Even with LOAL, they have to be cued and preprogrammed to the direction of the target before the missile is launched.
More bull from you. Russia and China are opposed to tough economic sanctions but it does not mean they are not opposed to military sanctions which they have all agreed upon already. What they are opposed is taking it further without negotiation.
You really full of bull. It says it uses Link 16, but the problem of Link 16 is that it is far too big and complicated to be physically installed in any missile. The missile itself does not have Link 16 but it uses the Link 16 through the plane before it it is launched to cue it to the target’s direction. Once it is launched, it is completely autonomous.
If you have to use a datalink, that means you have to rely on other planes. It means some other plane has to use its radar to IFF the target. It also means the link can be jammed as well.
No matter what you cannot escape the fact that you have to put your target into your radar’s point of view, then IFF it. In effect, your effective boresight is no bigger than your own radar’s field of view, which is around 60 degrees.
Crobato more excuses, the Derby has Lock on after launch this means basicly like the Python V it needs a data link and also it has an active radar.
The seeker for the Derby missile is a state of the art active radar seeker for all weather, all aspect air-to-air missiles. Advanced seeker performance enables engagement of several targets from short ranges to BVR with autonomous search, acquisition and tracking airborne targets, as well as look down capability.
sourcehttp://www.iai.co.il/Default.aspx?docID=22367&FolderID=16724&lang=en&PageNum=6
The Python V has a 360 deg envelope there is no need to be behind the target
The J-10`s PL-9 is far less advanced, it relies in a far more limited seeker and it has a more reduced engagement envelop, the J-10 has to be behind the target with its radome pointing at the target in a 120 deg range of off bored sight; the F-16 with the Python V can be in front of the target or even below or above it and its nose does not need to be in front of the target it has a full 360 deg engagement envelop.
For engagements against targets behind the launch aircraft, a datalink such as Link 16 must be used to provide information of target position
also the F-16 sufa has Infrared gogles for night combat.
And after all that shameless hyping of marketing material of yours, regardless whether you use an HMS or not, everything still boils down to doing IFF, and that means bearing down your radar on the target since it is the radar that will still do the IFF interrogation. Which means you cannot just fire your missile to the back and expect to hit a hostile, not your wingman.
It just seems to me that you try to cover up your technical ignorance by displaying and posting large amounts of marketing info without really trying to understand and discriminate what really is in it.
yeah yeah Crobato more excuses of you, if they are Russiasn sources blame it on the sources if they are western sources blame it on the sources yeah, yeah.
The Python V uses data link to achieve 360 deg engagement envelope and its head seeker has a +110deg or -110 deg off bore sight cabaility, compared to the PL-9 it is twice the off bore capability.
The Python IV even has +90deg or -90deg off bored capability
The best F-16s like the Sufa have enough electronics to have situational awareness and with the Helmet mounted sight they will enslave the missile into the target
Really I kind of doubt that, especially against a two seater J-10S, since the F-16’s image is that of the two seater F-16C with the spineback. The J-10S also has a spineback. And these kinds of images are taken in ideal conditions, without consideration in the real world of atmospheric refraction, diffraction and attenuation. And do tell me what kind of image do you get if the target is like 20km away. And what if the targets are coming head on to you?
Regardless, its not a missile’s job to do IFF. If a missile is specifically programmed not to engage an F-16 for example, you will get into a major problem with an F-16 vs. F-16 fight, like Israeli F-16s vs. Arab F-16s, and the Arabs have quite a number of F-16s on their own. There are also aircraft there that can be either friend or foe depending on their actual allegiance, like Mirage 2000s. Program your missile not to engage Typhoons for example, and what if the Arabs went and bought Typhoons, and you find yourself facing the type. Then there is the nightmare scenarios when a friendly plane goes rogue, carrying a bomb, even a nuke, that can be potentially be used against your cities. You need that final option to destroy a rogue plane.
cueing with the Elbit HMS the Python IV or V will hit the target most of the time specailly since it has good discrimination of flares and chaff once is cued
Elbit Systems’ fixed wing Helmet Mounted Display (HMD) technology provides the basis for the U.S. Joint Helmet Mounted Cueing System (JHMCS) program. Through the joint venture with Kaiser Electronics, Vision Systems International Inc (VSI) is equipping all frontline U.S. fighters (F-16, F/A-18, F-15 and F-22) with the advanced helmet mounted display and sight. Additionally, VSI was selected by Lockheed Martin Aeronautics Company to be its HMD source for the Joint Strike Fighter (JSF).
http://www.defense-update.com/directory/elbit-hmd.htm
The Elbit Dash IV Display and Sight Helmet System enables the pilot to aim the weapon by looking the target. Dash IV shortens the lock-on procedure time for engagements. The helmet measures the pilot’s line of sight to the target so the sensors, avionics and weapons are slaved to the target. Dash IV improves situation awareness by helping the pilots to visually detect targets at high angles off the nose of the aircraft, providing critical information in any direction the pilot looks.
-16I SOUFA FIGHTER AIR-TO-AIR MISSILES
The air-to-air missiles will be the short range Python 4 and Python 5 and the short range to beyond visual range radar-guided Derby, both supplied by Rafael.
The all-weather Derby has an active radar seeker, look down / shoot down capability, lock on before or after launch, and programmable electronic counter countermeasures (ECCM). The lock on before launch mode is deployed for tight dogfights.
The F16I will be equipped with the Rafael Python 5 air-to-air missile when development has been completed. The Python 5 is capable of lock on after launch and uses imaging infrared guidance. The new seeker uses a dual wavelength focal plane array and is equipped with robust infrared counter countermeasures capability.
source http://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/f-16i/
this is the derby
The Python 4 has a multi-element all-aspect IR seeker with digital signal processing. It is described by Rafael as ‘more than an imaging infra-red seeker’ in terms of functionality, though it does not use actual IIR techniques. There are unconfirmed reports that the seeker has the ability to discriminate in three spectral bands and can detect targets at a range in excess of 40 km. The seeker is optimised for use not only against conventional fast jet targets, but also against low- and slow-flying targets (such as helicopters) against a cluttered background. In order to engage a target, even at very high off-boresight angles, the pilot simply has to look at it through his helmet-mounted sight and fire. The seeker is mounted on a three-axis gimbaled platform with an up/down/rolling action. It has an advanced IRCCM capability, thanks both to the seeker and the imaging software. The seeker tracking rate is described as ‘faster than the eye’ with a ±90º off-boresight capability. The missile can manoeuvre at up to 70 g, with the ability to turn through 180º after launch and intercept a target behind the launch aircraft.
http://www.waronline.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=55
The new seeker allows lock-on at more than 100º off-boresight. It has a wider field of view than the seekers used on the ASRAAM, IRIS-T or AIM-9X, says Rafael. This wide angle was required to ease target-acquisition in a dogfight and to allow lock-on after launch (LOAL) attacks.
This extended control time allows long-range LOAL attacks. The maximum range of Python 5 has not been revealed, but is in the beyond visual range (BVR) category. Minimum range is “practically zero”, says Rafael. The company describes the new variant as a “full sphere” missile able to launch attacks against targets positioned ahead, above and below or even behind the launch aircraft. For engagements against targets behind the launch aircraft, a datalink such as Link 16 must be used to provide information of target position.
Python 4’s seeker is not that far off from the PL-8B’s seeker. Again, you’re talking of cryogenically cooled seeker using multispectral wave bands, which leads you to suspect if there was any more Israeli influence that goes on to the improved PL-8B seeker (used on the PL-9C).
As for your Python 5 seeker imagery, you can’t tell an F-16 from a J-10 with that. Since you (Flogger) cannot tell the difference between a Lavi and a J-10, a microcomputer with less intelligence than a cockroach isn’t going to do any better.
Yeah crobato yeah yeah the israelies do not use lock on technologies, the missile is designed to lock on and kill the target, besides the Israeli aircraft have electronic systems that allows them to tell apart friend and foe fighters, do you know what is a IFF? this allows them to know who is out there.
Israel usually also fits Israeli equipment to the F-16s so basicly they are not the same to the F-16s of Egypt or Turkey.
The Targeting system is in charge of locking on the Python V or Python IV either with the helmet mounted sight or radar, so pretty much an Israeli F-16 pilot will distinguish very well a J-10 from an Israeli F-16 and will lock on the Python V or IV into the J-10.
read about the Sufa
The F-16I is based on an advanced F-16 Block 52 aircraft. The Israeli version has integrated several new systems, developed and produced in Israel, required by the IAF, to maintain and enhance its operational capability. Despite the inclusion of many additional systems, the empty weight of the aircraft was maintained at the level of current Israeli Block 40 (Barak) F-16s. The “diet” included the use of lightweight materials, as well as the use of advanced avionics that offer considerable saving in weight and space.
The Sufa version of the F-16 Block 52 has a distinctive dorsal avionics compartment that accommodates all of the systems of the single-seat model as well as some special mission equipment and additional chaff/flare dispensers. The Israeli model is powered by the Pratt & Whitney F110-PW-229 Increased Performance Engine (IPE) engine develops over 29,000 lbs of thrust but weighs only 3,740 lbs. It incorporates modern turbine materials, cooling management techniques, compressor aerodynamics and electronic controls – many of them derived from F-119 and F-135 engines used in the new F-22 Raptor and JSF. The Advanced Block 52 aircraft use the Normal Shock Inlet (also known as the small mouth inlet).
Cockpit:
The Israeli F-16I cockpit features a helmet-mounted cueing system, color multifunction displays and recording equipment, cockpit lighting and external strip lighting compatible with night vision goggles, and large-capacity data transfer sets. Cockpit displays are driven by the Integrated color display processor (ICDP) developed by Elbit Systems, which drives the six multifunction color liquid crystal displays with 484×484 pixel resolution, built by Astronautics CA. HUDs are delivered by BAE Systems (initial 18-25) and El-OP (77-84). For the first time, the company embedded a digital map system and digital terrain flight algorithms into the ICDP computer. Such integration has saved considerable weight, wiring and logistical and technical support, previously required for separate systems. The Inertial Terrain Aided (RITA) system, developed by RAFAEL, uses proprietary algorithms based on accurate terrain reference navigation that improve low-level flight safety, and enable terrain following flight in all weather conditions, day or night and improve flight safety by avoiding ground collision. The aircraft is also equipped with a LANTIRN navigation pod, which enables automatic terrain following flight, utilizing a combination of forward looking imager and TF radar. This system enables the both crew members to fly safely at low altitude, as they were flying on “autopilot”, and concentrate on the employment of mission system and weapons. The fully missionized rear cockpit is used for navigation and Weapon Systems Operation (WSO).
Each cockpit has three displays and Head Up Display (HUD). Color coding is designed to match specific information, in different operational modes, to emphasize the information most important at every phase of the mission. All cockpit lighting, including the color displays, are designed to work with night vision systems. The tandem cockpit utilizes two fully functional positions for the pilot and weapon systems operator and navigator, both are equipped with the DASH-IV helmet mounted display and sight, developed by VCI Inc, a Rockwell-Collins / Elbit Systems Joint Venture which is also developing the new JHMCS helmets for the USAF and US Navy. The helmet display also provides critical flight and target information to the pilot — similar to a head-up display, but in any direction the pilot looks. DASH IV is a fourth generation of the DASH system, of which 500 are already in service. The new system offers several advantages compared to previous models, such the addition of a video camera that can record the pilot’s view to the mission debriefing system, more accurate line-of-sight tracking, etc. The system offers improved tracking accuracy and a miniature helmet mounted video camera that records the pilot’s line of sight view.
Core Avionics Systems
Another improvement over previous F-16 versions was introduced in the core avionics, which utilizes the General Avionics Computer (GAC) delivered by EFW, a division of Elbit Systems. This computer benefits from technology advances including increased processing speeds and memory capacity, by the using off-the-shelf technology, which improves supportability. The aircraft is equipped with a high capacity, ultra-fast network based on a fiber-channel backbone, which links all avionics modules, external stores and sensors into a unified, high capacity multi-channel network. Utilizing a high capacity (1 gigabyte) switch, the FiberChannel runs data streams over five channels with standards based protocols such as 1553 and 1790.
The navigation equipment is based on a 7 channel GPS and ring-laser Inertial Navigation System (INS), an integration of systems produced by Honeywell, Raytheon and General Dynamics. The TACAN is provided by Rockwell, which also provides the ARC-217 HF radio. BAE Systems is providing the ILS system and an advanced IFF transponder/interrogator. which improves the operation of the aircraft beyond visual range, and enable safe employment of long range A/A missiles. The communications equipment is based on an integrated voice/data system, that incorporates RAFAEL’s Green Radio, a localized and improved version of the Rockwell Collins ARC-210 VHF/UHF radio, equipped with a data modem, and an advanced data-link system, produced by IAI/MLM. These classified systems are believed to be more advanced to Link 16, offer integrated, secured and jam-resistant communications was designed to provide instantaneous high quality, high capacity communication between surface and air elements.
The aircraft is also equipped with an advanced data recorder, Advanced Data Transfer Equipment / Digital Video Recording (ADTE/DVR) developed and produced by Smiths Aerospace. The system uses a 15 gigabyte memory cartridge to store the entire flight records. The system records and time-stamps three video and databus channels, including video (HUD, helmet view, sensor view etc), audio (radio, intercom), avionics and sensor data (radar, digital map and flight data systems.) 3 digital video channels. A special mission debriefing system (SIMNET), designed by RADA is used to extract the data and present it for post mission debriefing and analysis.
source http://www.defense-update.com/products/f/f-16I-details.htm
LOL. They discriminate between plane vs. decoy. Not plane vs. plane. Missiles do not do friend or foe idenification.
And its all useless unless you can IFF your target first. That means putting your target into the plane’s radar bore first.
The Python V and Python IV are better than any missile currently deployed by China or Russia, and the Israeli air force uses plenty of AWACs and the US too, israel has also satellites and the US too, is pretty much senseless to say the Israelies won`t know where are the Iranian J-10s, they also use UAVs and UCAVs, so in terms of the over all package is pretty hard to defeat Israel and the Western powers are not fielding a fighter like the Eurofighter or Gripen over the persian gulf except when Saudi arabia gets its Eurofighters, Crobato you like it or not the J-10 has not weapons like the competition.
Is it a good aircraft? yeah i think is must be an excellent aircraft in agility and performance but in air to air weaponry it is not the best
PL-9C and PL-8B seeker tech is actually quite close to the Python 4, which also uses cryogenically cooled multispectral array. This allows all these missiles better decoy discrimination, something the R-73 needs to improve at. Range of the Python 4 is still around 15km.
Python V uses a different type of seeker technology that works more optical than thermal.
And under what circumstances do you get the 105km range? Aircraft launching speed and altitude is important. You can take the same missile, launch it at different altitudes and speeds, and you can come with a major difference in range as far as 60km vs. 100km. Unless you can show the exact launching circumstances, comparisons in range is not valid.
The PL-9 features an all-aspects cryogenic liquid nitrogen gas-cooled seeker infrared-homing seeker head unit utilising proportional navigation guidance techniques. The missile seeker ’s off-boresight capability is said to be better than that of the AIM-9L/M Sidewinder missile, and comparable to the Russian R-73 (AA-11 Archer). 607 Institute has improved upon the PL-9 by marrying it to the Chinese indigenous helmet-mounted sight (HMS), which is similar to the Arsenel helmet sight from the Russian R-73. A Chinese brochure credits the helmet sight with a 60 degrees off-boresight capability, or a 120 degrees field of fire. At the November 1996 Zhuhai Air Show, a Chengdu (CAC) engineer confirmed that the PL-9 HMS will be fitted onto the F-7MG fighter.
DESIGN
The missile is fitted with a cryogenic liquid nitrogen gas-cooled IR seeker capable of +/-40 degree off boresight angles. Flight control is by long span pointed delta fins at the front of the missile with Sidewinder-type slipstream driven rollerons on the aft tail fin surfaces to prevent roll and so enhance the operation of the guidance system.
SPECIFICATIONS
Missile length: 2.90m
Missile diameter: 0.157m
Wingspan: 0.65m
Launch weight: 115kg (PL-9); 123kg (PL-9C)
Warhead: 10kg HE (PL-9); 12kg (PL-9C)
Propulsion: One solid-propellant rocket motor
Off-boresight capability: 60 degree
Speed: Mach 2.1
G Limit: 35G (PL-9); 40G (PL-9C)
Range: 0.5~5km (PL-9); 0.5~6km (PL-9C)
Guidance: All-aspect infrared + helmet-mounted sight guidance
http://www.sinodefence.com/airforce/weapon/pl9.asp
versus
The Python 4 missile employs a unique tailored proportional navigation homing algorithm. As a result of these design features, the Python 4 seeker is credited with the capability to engage and track targets throughout most of the forward hemisphere (the exact figure has not been disclosed, UK sources suggest in excess of 60 degrees off-boresight capability), with a high but undisclosed tracking rate.
Length 295 cm
Span 50 cm
Body 15 cm
Weight 120 kg (warhead over 11 kg)
Guidance Type IR
Model 1 x spr.
Range 15 km
now Python V
By definition, the Python 5 is considered to be a short range air-to-air missile, yet its range exceeds regular air-to-air missiles, and is more close to what is technically called BVR (beyond visual range) missiles. Those missiles can be shot upon targets which are not visually seen at the moment of launch, and are acquired by the missile itself during its flight path. New technologies implemented in the Python 5 give it maneuvering and launching skills unimaginable just few years ago. Instead of talking about certain “killing hemisphere” we are talking about an ability to shoot any target at any angle, including backwards launch (!). This ability is possible by applying LOAL (lock on after launch) technology. In oppose to LOBL (lock on before launch), that is used in all short range air-to-air missiles (excluding the Python 5 of course) in LOAL mode the pilot can launch a missile without being locked on the target, by getting the aircraft’s estimated location from an array of sensors which are deployed on the launching aircraft. From the moment the Python 5 is launched, its head seeker scans the designated area constantly while it flies in a direct path to the estimated location of the target. Once the missile “sees” the target, it employs its unique, first of its kind, electro-optical head-seeker and locks on the target. Then the missile switches to a close hunt combat which holds no future to the target aircraft.
Length 3096 mm
Span 640mm
Body 16 cm
Weight 103.6 kg (warhead over 11 kg)
Guidance Type Electro-Optical
Model 1 x spr.
Speed 4 Mach
Range More than 20 km
source http://www.israeli-weapons.com/weapons/missile_systems/air_missiles/python/Python5.html
winner of the contest F-16I will shot down the J-10 any time since the Python is better than the PL-9
this is the python V engagement capability
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