MERCOSUR AIR FORCE

200 Su-30MKI, 400 AMX, 40 R-99 and 40 ERJ-145 AWACS, 40 EMB-190 tankers, and the rest of the combine forces of South america

And there it is, Flogger land. Maybe you would care to explain how two non production aerodynamic demonstrators equal the Rafale and the Typhoon?:rolleyes:

If you had said the yet to fly Su-35 you may have had an argument but the above quoted comment just means nothing.

The Su-47 and MiG-1.44 were shelved because the Russians wanted something better, the Soviets would had actually deployed the MiG 1.44 and MiG-35 in the late 1990s if the Soviet Union would had not collapsed, the MiG-1.44 was not flown for many years due to budget problems.

In 1999 was pretty obvious the MiG-1.44 and the Su-47 were not advanced enough to remain advanced fighters in the XXI century.

The Russian stealth fighter program was sluggish with respect the American one, they could had deployed easily in 1999, the Su-37, but they did not because of money problems, their pace of development was slow down dramatically and by 2004 the US won the race deploying the 5th generation by at least 10 years ahead of Russia, however it seems Russia will be the second country in the world to deploy a 5th generation fighter in 2015

here is flogger land

Interesting comments RSM55.

But I must say- if you think India will settle for anything less than full TOT/ production rights, it seems very unlikely. The only time I can see that happening is if New Delhi funds both the PAK-FA and the MCA programs. The latter will allow Delhi to get a handle on fifth gen programs without compromising its aeronautical industry and also allow it to settle for “comanufacture” of the PAK-FA. But that and two programs also mean that India will not bankroll the PAK-FA to the extent Russia wants.

Any details about the radar etc- I failed to understand what you stated earlier. If I read you correctly, you were stating that the PAK-FA would be built in Russia but its electronics could be licensed to India?:confused:

Coming to the MiG-35 vs F/A-18 E/F- there simply, is little comparison. The former is the last development of a mature design and its sensors are still in the early phases of development.

The Russians and the Indians are building nice birds, the PAK FA as far as August 2007 is being built, the debate as far as it goes is if it will be better than the F-22 is still an open one, however the fact they have already started the construction of the first prototype and some of the technologies available will improve other aircraft like the Su-35BM and the MiG-31, shows basicly the debate will be end in few years.

It is pretty obvious the PAK FA will be as good as the F-22 because the Su-47 and Mig-1.44 were as least as good as the Rafale and Eurofighter.

Really, Russia needs a export customer to make the PAK-FA viable! Which, could be a problem for a number of reasons. First, China has come such a long ways with the J-10. It maybe able to go its own way without Russian help. Second, India has been moving closer to the West. If, it selects a Western Type for its MMRCA? Who know what could happen further down the road. Especially, if the aforemention turns out to be wildly successful……..

Russia does not any other nation to build the PAK FA, the only thing they need from them, is their money, Russia bled cash in the 1990s and that is the reason of the collapse of its economy, several western banks in cahoots with a few russians planned the destructrion of the USSR and the weakening of the Russian economy in the early post cold war years.

In 2007 Russia is becoming a stronger nation and will have more cash to found the programs for the defence of the Russian air space.

Today Russia is fielding the new S-400 anti stealth SAM batteries, newer Su-34s and has started the construction of the PAK FA, Russia still is a nation willing to have very advanced weapons

Actually those were conventional rockets, who were welded fakes for president to see. The true naval missile is the one I showed up the thread. wich is bigger, and has missile look alikes. Pic taken from a sermar power point.

It´s very early o say if we´ll buy bombardiers, just because the plant is here, It´s not the kind of jet FAM buys. And certainly is not obligued to do so.
What is very probable indeed is proliferation of self adopted and developed industry, off course depending on its success.
The naval missile, the uav wich might be the most important asset of this fad, and flak vests developed by the army.

I can´t forsee future, but I can assure you that we´ll never build american fighters. No one would let a third party to build such estrategic part of your defenses. If the US would like such option a lot of countries would be subcontracted doing that now.

Build components by certification is one thing, to build the whole fighter is diferent, particularly with classified technology, exposure of espionage, not having the industry at home, and risking your vital industry to eb easily atacked. NOt to talk the diplomatic problem, cause they would like us troops to be in the spot. It would be a mess. Very un realistic apreciation for this days. Past beongs to the past, today things are diferent.

Maturin

I do respect your opinions, but you are not realistic, I am latin american like you and fortunately i had the experience of have lived in Asia, Japan does build american fighters, South korea too and even Turkey did it, Mexico did build american aircraft in fact has built american fighters, if in the late part of the XX century Mexico did not is because the economic condition of that time did not need it.

The US could allow mexico very likely assemble fighters like the US did with Turkey, and as i see the new development of the mexican aircraft industry and the fact in mexico some design already is going on for american companies in fact the UAV Ehecatl is a result of that, mexico is becoming another gear of the US aerospace industry, and it will sooner or later create a situation similar like the one Japan has with the US or Mitsubishi and Boeing.

Globalization is the answer globalization will make Mexico become again a aircraft manufacturing nation and in fact the electric harnesses for the F-22 are built in Mexico and many modern control system for General Electric jet engines are built and design by mexicans so already the Mexican aerospace industry is part of the US military industry
Aerospace design and engineering activities are also taking place in Mexico. In Coahuila there is GE’s Center for Advanced Engineering in Turbo machinery, a place where Mexican engineers are designing control systems for jet engines

http://www.twinplantnews.com/issues/july06/Article%20of%20Month.htm
A “burning platform” existed within the electrical harness fabrication department at Lockheed Martin Aeronautics Company – Fort Worth (LM Aero – FW). During the Engineering and Manufacturing Development phase of the F-22 program, a decision was made to offload the fabrication of electrical harnesses for the F-22 mid-fuselage to Mexico.

source http://www.wiringharnessnews.com/Articles/2000/F22/f22.htm
Date of Notice Description of Equipment Transfer Type Price
11/9/1999 Manufacture of wiring harnesses and wiring harness panels for use on United States F-16, C-130, P-3, S-3, and F-22 aircraft. DCS >$50 million

http://www.fas.org/asmp/profiles/mexico_armstable.htm

This expanding workforce is changing the way multinationals view the country. They can now shift more complex production to Mexico, along with higher-skilled jobs. But it goes beyond manufacturing: Companies such as General Electric (GE ), General Motors (GM ), Honeywell (HON ), and Delphi (DPHIQ ) have created large research and development centers employing hundreds of Mexican engineers to carry out sophisticated design modifications and handle the testing of everything from new car models to military and commercial jet engines.

http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/06_21/b3985070.htm

If they buy anything, it would probably be the F-16. Its cheaper than the F-18, as cheap as the Gripen and has much better capabilitys than the Gripen. But even if corruption wasnt such a factor in Mexico, fighter defense is just not a big issue with the Mexican public, they would rather see that money go to hospitols and whatnot. As far as fighter and survailence aircraft for drug interdiction goes, the US should really kick in and support that. The USA´s , multibillion dollar drug habit is not something these developing nations should have to fight on their own. The US should lend aircraft to Mexico and other central american natios and create a common surveilence network.

i do agree 100% with your statement however how to fight the war on drugs, is a matter that has to do more with fight corruption in mexico and the US alike and prevention and education of the mexican and American population of the dangers of drug usage.

The US has F-22 and can easilly shot down any transpasser of the US air space however while corruption exists in either side of the border and drug usage is a cultural practice is difficult to combat those social cancers.

I am incline to believe that mexico will equip its arm forces in the decade of 2010-2020 with aircraft made in Mexico from the new Ehecatl UAV to very likely some Bombardiers built in Mexico, honestly i do not think they will adquire fighters soon, if they buy they should buy something new because unless the US demands Mexican help to fight wars that affect the US i doubt the mexican air force will be equipped with first class fighter however AWACS and light interceptors i see a great chance for them, they will need to be new since they do not buy interceptors very often i doubt old aircraft will be of great usage.

It is also possible that in few decades Mexico might built american fighters as it did in the past here are some Vought aircraft built in Mexico in the early 1920s

source http://portalaviacion.vuela.com.mx/articulos/corsarios.html

here is one oof the earliest aircraft in History that gave to mexico a brief technological advanteg over many nations in the early 1920s
I also attached the foto of the Toloche one of the few aircraft built in mexico by the defunct TNCA or in English National aircraft workshops, this was one of the few companies that built aircrft in mexico
Source http://www.laahs.com/artman/publish/article_16.shtml

source http://miarroba.com/foros/ver.php?foroid=720871&temaid=3505072&imprimible=si

Buying 50 K-8s is just a good way to lose more pilots. It’s not a bad aircraft, but increase the number of pilots by a factor of 5 is going to lose a lot more airmen. The L-15 might be a good option, however. It has the twin engines that would give the over water reliability (if that was desired), has the speed (Mach 1.4 clean), is advanced, cheap, easy-to-fly, and can be armed with everything that Mexico might need to get the job done.

It’s main downsides will be the fact that it’s made in China (although less politically negative than Russia), it’s not going to have a chance of dealing with anything more than a bizjet, it has even shorter legs than a Gripen with no current IFR capability, it’s not nearly as robust as say a Frogfoot, and it’s relatively untested. I don’t think I’d want to be its first export customer.

On that note, an Aermacchi M-346 or M-346K (or Yak-130, although it’s Russian, again) might not be a bad idea. It has all the capabilities necessary and is a nice platform to upgrade to something a bit tougher at a later date.

Yeah, the M-346 would probably be about perfect for Mexico. Keep everyone happy, get plenty of airframe hours to work with, get something advanced, docile, yet has some teeth. It’s got two engines, yet would have low operating costs. Furthermore, if you decide to upgrade to some Rafales or something like that later, you already have a cadre of modern fast jet pilots and a good advanced training platform. That might be perfect.

Logan Hartke

i see more chances for the AMX than for the aircraft you mentioned, the AMX is one of the best options, however do not discount the JAS-39 Gripen already some mexican pilots have flown it in order to asses it. it was also rumourd the intyerest in the L-150

AHOOO so…then there is no “conspiracy” and tied hands from the evil US on us. Just buissnes. But thats a normla thing around the world.

No it´s not, but it´s childish to keep saying yes, then no. I won´t waste my time no more. I know I´m right is not like I´m proving or guessing or giving my own conclusion of the buissnes. I´m telling a fact.

You may belive whatever you feel secure to belive.

Maturin

Politics do affect economics, the only point i said is due to politics the Russian proposal was not accepted and due to politics and economics mexico destroyed its initial aircraft industry; Mexico in 1920 was at the level of many european nations, in fact Mexico sold even products to the Japanese empire in the 1930s, if only Mexico would had followed a correct policy Mexico would have become a aviation power like Germany or France, however you like it or not the US aircraft industry was interested in destroying its competitors and that included Mexico`s initial aircraft industry and this and the corrupt politicians that managed the aviation industry in mexico destroyed mexico`s excellent start position at the begining of the XX century that is call capitalism, not a conspiracy but a reality, same happened with the early Mexican space program.

Russia wanted to transfer technology to Mexico and i can assure just by looking the Brazilian experience the Russian tech transfers are better usually than the Western ones because the Russians are always willing to transfer more technology, see the case of China and India or the Brazilian space program, in Brazil they decided the Russians offered better deals than the US or France in fact the F-16 was rejected very early in the F-X program and only the same aircraft the mexico did indeed review remain as the most competitive, the Rafale Su-27M and the JAS-39 continued to the final but at the end the Rafale and the Su-35 were the only options and indeed there were rumours the Su-27M was the best option but powerful interests did not allow the purchase of these excelent birds.

The naval mexican Flanker most likely would had given excellent technology for the money, the Mil-8 also would had given an excelent oportunity for the Mexican aircraft industry, the same can be said about the Antonov proposal.

However happily for latin american, Brazil is adquiring lots of technological transfers, EMBRAER IS THE FOURTH LARGEST AIRCRAFT MAKER and in Mexico a new policy is aimed at achieving some parity with Embraer.