Wow NASA get off the way, here we come. Come on man that is not a “space program” lets be honest ok.

A missile wich is belived to have been based or copied on the Israeli Gabriel due to a complete redisgn in a few months. An incredible transformation from an iron tube, to this.

And it´s ok, cool but the project is not over and there are no results to judge yet,the fact that they are building a misisle doesn´t garannte technical success or sales success.

You are just overdimentioning things.

Well I´pm sorry if you don´t belive it, you find explanation to what you want to, cause you just can´t accept the fact that The ex navy chief was corrupt. keep on conspiracy it´s easy.

Off course it´s a bigger and better deal, I don´t think you knew this, but russians wanted the governament o give them the terrains for free. Of course it didn´t happened. Bombardier came with the money and the investros.
I not know much, but this sounds like a beter deal, no matter if you are in mexico or china.

Who says i´t´s not correct, we are the base for a russian helos workshop for latin america, we are the secnd ones with mil mi´s simulators. We operate a huge fleet of russian equipment. so????

I gues you are looking what you want to look.

You are contradictory and I´ll proof it:
The Main turbines to create electricity fromthe brand new Hidorelectrical plant el cajon are russians, and the core of the energetic engeenieering of this and other projetcs are russians.

So pleas, forgiveme cause I failed to recognize the relation between a politized investment in russian energetics and the antirussian unpollitically correct conspiracy to buy jus american tech.

1923 Alvaro Obregón signs agreement economic, political, etc. with EU by means of “Treaties of Bucareli” in where Mexico is committed not to make certain products, it prohibited to our country the construction of factories and the development of any invention and not to develop no warlike, aerial or marine industry by the term of 75 years.
1944 the investigations in subjects of Space Physics begin in Mexico in 1944 under the influence of the Dr Manuel Sandoval Vallarta, with the works on cosmic rays that were initially carried out by investigators of the Institute of Physics and later also of the Institute of Geophysical (today Department of Space Physics), both of the UNAM.
1957 Some details on the construction of rockets arrived at the hands of the group of physics of San Luis Potosí. Gustavo of the Castle, director of the School of Physics, thought that the beginning of a program for the design and construction of rockets. The 28 of December place was taken the first successful launching. This same year, Walter C. Buchanan, then Secretary of communications and Transports, met weekly in a restaurant of the Narvarte colony to discuss the possibility of constructing rockets impelled by liquid fuel.
1959 a liquid-propellant rocket was launched in the outskirts of the Property the Begonia, in the state of Guanajuato, the 24 of October. The small Mexican V-2, baptized as SCT-1 reached a height of 4.000 meters.
1960 the 1 of October, launched the rocket SCT-2, that incorporated some technical improvements, among them the use of superior fins, in addition to the inferior ones, to give greater stability him of flight. One says that it raised 25 kilometers
1961 Buchanan signed an agreement that created the Mexico-EUA Commission for the Space Observation, tie with the project Mercury, one of the first space programs of the United States. As resulting from this agreement was constructed the surveillance radar Join.
1962 to canalize, to coordinate and to stimulate the space activities, 31de August I am created, by decree of president Lopez Mateos, the National Commission of Espacio Exterior (CNEE), like a dependency of the Secretariat of Communications and Transports, same that tapeworm like main function controlling and fomenting all the related one to the investigation, exploration and use with pacific aims of the deep space. After its incorporation, the missile technology group launched a first solid-propellant rocket, Tototl, that reached a height of 22 km subsequently, experiment with the Mitl rocket (of Nahuatl milt = arrow). This same year the Department of Deep space in the Institute of Geophysical is created of the UNAM
1963 Surgió a Renaissance movement that produced the series of rockets baptized like Zeus. This time, that were impelled by the push of Cardinal red Juan F., professor and exalumno of the School of Physics, it initiated the 3 of April, with the launching of the rocket Zeus 1 of a stage, and I culminate in May of 1967, with the launching of a two-stage rocket that reached a height of 10 kilometers.
1967 were sent first of the Milt series (Mitl I-op) and reached 50km of height
1966 Mexico became member of Intelsat.
1968 the first earth station is constructed, Tulancingo I, in the state of Hidalgo. The transmissions of the Olympic Games by television to color are made.
1969 the permanent communication channels with services of international telephony and telegraphy settle down.
1970 it is begun to use capacity in a satellite of Intelsat for domestic services.
1975 were sent first of the second Milt series (Milt II) and I also reach 120 km took to the country to make the decision to construct to another earth station for reception of satellites due to the increasing population and the greater demand, as well as the increase of the number of countries that signed agreements of telecommunication with Mexico
1976 renombra the Department of Deep space like Department of Space Studies, that has been growing and consolidating until even constituting in our days a solid nucleus in which all the areas of theoretical space exploration are developed practically and some experimental ones.
1977 Due to differences between the collaborating institutions, the CNEE did not work well and it disappeared. The personnel and resources of this commission assigned to different areas, same that based on his own interests they mainly continued the lines of work in the aspects of remote perception

read this basic articlehttp://aexa.divaac.org/cronologiaEraEspacialMexicana.php

man you think i do not know how corrupt is the mexican government? do you think getting acces to Russian tech won`t benefit mexico? the answer is not Mil or Antonov lack money or tech, since everything depends in the deal and the offsets offered by each nation, the Russian influence in mexico has limits imposed by NAFTA and the US preassure, do you think the corruption is only isolated to one single individual? the mexican goverment is corrupted to the bone, if they claim one individual is corrupt is just because they can take some one who is getting out of the system.

The case of the navy secretary is only the case of a guy who was going beyond the limits imposed by the system, the kick backs by Bombardier are stronger than the kick backs by Mil or Sukhoi. same happend in Brazil with the FX program when Embraer by preassure of Dassault stalled the Sukhoi bid.

The case in Mexico is the same.

OK, how is this for an idea. If you want a fast jet with long range and that is affordable, you cant beat a bizjet! The Bombardier Global Express XRS and the Gulfstream G550 are both jets that have 6500nm range and a mach .85 cruise speed. And both these jets are very cheap compared to military aircraft, I believe they cost around $20 million or so, cheaper than a freakin Hawk 200. On long patrol missions the pilot can rest back in the cabin area, it would be great for fatique reduction.

The Global Express

The G550

If the current plans go ahead, mexico might assemble Bombardier aircraft in the next decade, if this happens i guess the anti-narcotics war will be fought with Bombardier aircraft, even it is possible Mexico will buy a few ASTORS, that is more probable than Su-27s and if you read the news a Hawker beechcraft is not out of the question yet:D

To buy second hand doen´t mean youare buying crap, you are not buying underware, you are buying machines, wich are still reliable. Israelies have done marvellous things wit second hand fighters. The term crap is very “relative” when talking about aircraft.

Now let´s get things honest. We returned those hueys wich were a present, and then we spent a lot in buyin 80 and so Cessnas, we put them to do recce runs inside cannons, and now we have a lot more cessnas and pilots lost than with hueys. Cause they are doing something they were never desigend to do, speccially to recive narc fire.

The idea is that we feel proud to return crapy helos, to buy our own crapy assets so our pilots could die ina crappy way, created by us.

Mexico is not Perú, nor has enemies or territorial disputes or recent wars to develope armament. And Mexico buys whatever it wants, that´s an old myth about tied hands is just that a myth. I don´t think harriers area good Idea, they are expensive and I can´t see a tactical or estrategical justification to have them and I just don´t know what you are talking about helo carriers, Mexico has none, and is not planing to build any. Maybe yuo are confusing the all prupose bullom, with a helo carrier. Just beacuse you have a flat plattaform doesn´t mean you can operate harriers. To be honest you have some contradictory idea there about crap, harriers and buying mate.:rolleyes:

The only justification to have fighters of any kind is for training purposes, otherwise there is no such need, really there is not. But a low budget option would be as Logan says and t rent aicraft for a few years. But the landscape looks not very promising in the jet combat area in the Mexican naval and air forces.
Future calls for helos, transports, elint´s and turboprops. 😮

Man it is surprising me how you follow a non independent way of thinking. If Mexico is a free nation buying new aircraft won`t affect any one, if Mexico is an independent nation then Mexico does not need to ask any foreign power if they can buy new aircraft.

Mexico can buy JAS-39 new, economically speaking it is possible, mexico can buy even french Mirage 2000 or MiG-29s, the budget is not the problem, the only reason why Mexico they do not buy such aircraft has to do with the fact Mexico has a not a policy of independent defence and the Mexican government believes there is not need of independent defence policy because they think living under the US umbrella assures them defence.

The reality is Mexico should not follow such policy for several reasons, number one technologically speaking has costed a great deal of money

Example:Brazil is the fourth largest aircraft maker and everything started from a military program EMBRAER is the result of that, Mexico has no company like that, Brazil is developing satellite launchers at a lower price than the entire Mexican space program budget and basicly mexico only buys satellites built by american companies without creating any mexican technology in fact while Mexico spends more in its space program than Brazil, Mexico is behind technologically several decades and even chile has more domestic aerospace technology than Mexico.
http://www.itaspace.com/news.html#anchor1407


Brazil is developing a nuclear submarine source
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/6290234.stm

The real difference is Brazil is emerging as the real leader of Latin America, its ensuring the creation of domestic technology and has an economy as strong as Mexico in many areas.

In Mexico, the armada is aware of that in fact Mexico buys brazilian aircraft, from ERJ-145SA to Embraer 190, today Mexico is lagging behind Brazil, is uncapable of defend it self while Brazil already has set south america towards the creation of an entirely independent south america continent.

Conclusion Mexico is niether helping the US niether helping the mexican interests with a weak position in defence, Mexico should buy new aircraft not old and follow the brazilian example very carefully.

Mexico can afford to buy new JAS-39s or Mirage 2000 even Rafales a purchase of such aircraft won`t affect the US because 20-30 Rafales won`t afect the US that is the reality in fact Mexico should become like Canada a trusted ally of the US that can buy contemporary US fighters in fact see Turkey does buy JSFs and it is more probable they are less likely to remain US allies in the near future.

Dear Mig, those are some cool declarations but lets be realistic , they belong to a non state plan, they are most in the field of education and science, but they are far away from true political will to set a strong industry. Though interetsing ¿what else would you say at le bourget? Sadly I don´t see nor feel conditons in Mexico. Just take a look at the budget for science.

Well interception is not a task for the Air force, it belongs to the federal police, AF is support and elint,but it can be summon to intercept.
ROE does not allow AF pilots to shoot unles shot upon, and that did hapen in the past, when some shots were recived by Kalashnikovs from some aircraft. And pc-7´s shot them down. But most of the time is just survelliance and gruond interception.

I am not so pesimistic, because what is developing the aircraft industry in Mexico at this moment in time is not the mexican government but rather foreign aircraft industry, that is outsourcing and building aircraft technology in a cheap labour market as Mexico is, currently in 2007, in the state of Queretaro, Bombardier is building fuselages, GE also outsources some of the design of GE`s turbines and several other companies build aircraft parts in Mexico, so it is not an issue of the Mexican government but basicly that foreign aircraft manufacturers are taking the best mexican engineers and using the cheap labour market to build aircraft.

Mexico is not still in the level China, Brazil or India are where there is a strong governamental support to the domestic aircraft industry, but it is in the begining where the best Mexican minds will create alongside the foreign industry the basic infrastructure that will force in future years an increase in the budget for science and education.

I think Mexico most likely will continue the same policy for several years but no for more than a decade, the current mexican economic development is forcing a complete change in the current mexican policy in what regards science and education.

I guess Mexico won`t buy Su-27s in the near future and very likely they will continue buying aircraft that only do support logistics and the anti-narcotics war such as AWACS or helos perhaps aircraft in the class of the YAk-130, but this will change because once some of these foreign companies start building their aircraft in Mexico this will force some civilian products to enter military service as the EMB-110 and ERJ-145 did in Brazil

Absoloutly

To be exact navy was behind a project to assemble a US built and designed, recreational Lancair and a helicopter. Those were not projects made from scratch nor original ideas, we bought them and assembled in México. Nowadays the project is dead.

True, deals really not agreeble to President Fox, and to the US. Project was buried even before Fox´s period was over, fox focused on russian energetics and heavy industry, but never was much interested in defense deals.
By contrast Bombardier did stablished a factory, and lot of subcontractotrs sprung in northern mexico for U.S Major defense companies.
Russians only could achive to stablish a second level workshop for helicopters along with the navy.

False, there was ill management in the navy and corruption, the chief of the navy is involved ina legal situation because of that. Otherwise they would be here, and they are not.

I don´t know, but there are not public plans to establish not even a mid level indigenous industry, not one sponsored by the governament. As far as I know in the national plans, there is nothing focusing on that. I´d love to see some docs about that.

Yes navy is working on few low profile programs, some succesfull, some other not so much, but that doesn´t mean that plans for a huge industry are on course.

true

I guess you can read spanish, here is an extract that claims mexico will built aircraft and helicopters soon in a time period of 5 years so by 2010 and 2015 we will see aircraft coming out of mexican manufacturing factories.

París, FRANCIA.- La industria aeronáutica de México tendrá la capacidad de fabricar aviones dentro de cinco años, aseveró ayer el jefe de la Unidad de Promoción de Inversión de la Secretaría de Economía, Eduardo Solís.

En México hay más de 140 empresas que se dedican a la cadena aeronáutica. (Archivo)

“México va a desarrollar la capacidad para fabricar un avión completo en cinco años”, declaró Solís en rueda de prensa en el marco del salón aeronáutico y del espacio que se realiza en Le Bourget, en las afueras de París.

Solís rechazó identificar a la empresa que fabricará el primer avión en México, pero insistió en que se “van a desarrollar las capacidades para lograr tener un avión completo fabricado en nuestro país”.

http://www.elsiglodetorreon.com.mx/noticia/281692.en-5-anos-mexico-podra-fabricar-aviones-se.html

The Mexican navy was involved in the first indigenously built military aircraft in mexico these were built in the 1920s and 1930s these were mexican domestically build aircraft by mexican manufacturers, the LANCAIR were not the first aircraft built in Mexico, in fact the Tonatiuh was a mexican design aircraft built by the IPN and the mexican navy here is the source

Señaló que la Secretaría de Marina y el IPN desarrollaron en forma conjunta durante la década de los 80´s uno de los proyectos de mayor envergadura que fue el prototipo de avión denominado “Tonatiuh”, cuya meta fue la conjunción de esfuerzos para desarrollar una tecnología propia e independiente, además de sustituir importaciones y disminuir la dependencia del extranjero. Asimismo, dijo que aprovechando la infraestructura académica y de investigación del IPN y la colaboración del personal idóneo de ambas instituciones, se logró la construcción de ocho aeronaves ligeras y robustas que respondieron perfectamente a las necesidades de fortaleza y sencillez que exige el adiestramiento primario de vuelo, con un costo 35 % menos de su equivalente en el extranjero.

source http://www.semar.gob.mx/boletin/2006/bol_117_06.htm

The Azcárate O-E-1 was a reconnaissance-bomber developed in Mexico in the late 1920s. It was designed by General Brigadier Juan Azcárate and built at the TNCA workshops near Mexico City.

source http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azc%C3%A1rate_O-E-1

here are some of the mexican designed aircraft of the 1920s

http://avia.russian.ee/air/mexico/tnca_microplano.php

http://avia.russian.ee/air/mexico/tnca_tololoche.php

If you want to read more about the mexican aircraft of the 1920s read tis articlehttp://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache:j8z09BYwLnEJ:www.iztapalapa.uam.mx/cemanahuac/cem23.pdf+TNCA,+the+Talleres+Nacionales+de+Construcciones+Aeron%C3%A1uticas&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=10&gl=jp

in fact if you read what they say and you look what companies and institutes are building the new mexican UAV you will see those are part of the mexican government and some offical scientific and technological mexican institutes and in fact the new mexican UAV will enter service in the mexican navy
see

Presentan en Francia primer avión mexicano

Por: Enrique Corte

Puede volar con autonomía de 8 horas y 10 países quieren comprarlo

El primer avión diseñado y fabricado por mexicanos de la historia fue presentado por la empresa Hydra Technologies de México, de nombre Ehécatl (Dios del Viento), durante la Feria Internacional de la Aeronáutica y del Espacio de Le Bourget en París, Francia.

Se trata de un aparato de sistema aéreo de vigilancia no tripulado que se empezó a desarrollar hace 50 meses y está pronto a entrar en operación, en cuanto lo apruebe la Armada de México.

“Queremos destacar que el sistema central y la biónica son totalmente diseñados en México”, dijeron fuentes de Hydra Technologies.

“Su función es observar lo que sucede en tierra o mar. Como no es tripulado puede entrar en zona de riesgo y es muy difícil detectarlo”, explicaron.

El aparato es producto de un proyecto del Gobierno federal, el sector financiero a través de Nafinsa, instituciones académicas y científicas como Conacyt, el Instituto Politécnico Nacional, la Universidad Autónoma de Guadalajara, el Iteso y empresas que desarrollan alta tecnología.

http://www.omnia.com.mx/not_detalle.php?id_n=6035

Air force has 10 F-5´s left from originally 12 bought back in 1982, at any time only 7 are operational due to maintenance, wich is excelent bye the way. Problem is that the army is choaking the Air force, converting it into an army private airline quiting all trases of creativity, inventivity and initiative, Mexican pilots are simply excelent, if only they were encouraged, suported and cared they would astonish half world. For example on this depression a regular F-5 pilot is gainig 2 or 4 flthrs a month!!! if he is lucky. And they do not fly in a constant patrol status, they just do trainig arround the central portion of Mexico and some sporadic deployments, an anual live fire exercise and very scattered calls for scramble for suspicious flights. But basicly they do nothing else but training cause they ( al 30 f-5 pilots) are not allow to do nothing else.

The other portion of jet aviation is set on 10 T33 still in active status wich isa miracle, they have just reached theyr 50 th anniversary, unbelivable isn´t it?

And this has a political reason, there is not any threat from any country on Mexico, the US is unbeatble, Belize is UK territory and guatemala is in far worst condition. So plan makers don´t invest much in tactical aviation.

That is why our combat aviation is basicly focus on turbo prop pilatus, helos, elint, and medium cargo.

The navy tried to set stakes pretty high when dealing for the Flankers, but it was a dream made of sugar, navy wanted them cause they had some surplus in the all ready compromised budget and since in Mexico is tabu to talk or to show any improvement in the army muscle they tryed to justify the purchase with the “theyr for patroll” argument, but obviously it was sucha lie. They wanted theyr own combat wing, saddly they were theyr worst enemy.

I think the question is not as simple as you have stated, the answer it is more a political one rather than a budget one, Mexico like the other latin american giant has not purchased large amounts of fighter aircraft for several decades, this has to do more with politics and lack of vision rather than lack of budget or even lack of technology.

Aircraft manufacturing and military aviation were stablish very early in latin america, in fact the brazilian Santos Dummont was one of the first aviation pioneeres and in the mexican revolution aircraft were used as as weapons.

From the early 1920s to the 1940s Mexico had an avaition industry and did indeed built military aircraft, however the Mexican government lacked the vision that in Brazil they had.

In fact the Mexican navy was behind the few domestic aircraft built in mexico with military purposes by the now almost unknown mexican aircraft manufacturers.

From the 1950s to the 1980s the mexican aircraft manufacture almost disappeared however the success of the brazilian company Embraer in the 1990s prompted a reaction in Mexico, this forced the Mexican navy to even to assembled kit aircraft and helicopters and approach Russia in order to build Antonov aircraft and Mil helicopters, both projects seem to have remain just as pure paper proposals; during this period Russia offered the Su-27s, the visits made by Putin to Mexico and the former mexican president Fox to Russia were in part prompted with the desire to re-stablish a Mexican aircraft industry and the stablishment of a mexican-russian alliance in military affairs.

The Mexican government also did approach Canada, and Bombardier stablished an aircraft manufacturing plant in Queretaro that will built regional jets under license in Mexico in 2010.

The real reason why Mexico has not bought the Su-27s is not so much the lack of budget but basicly a political one, the mexican government has seen the success of Brazil in aircraft manufacturing and has in mind the stablishment of a mexican aircraft industry, however the problem is basicly what nations are the best providers of that technology, Russia seemed for a while as the best candidate but now seems the politically speaking Russia is not because before bombardier offered the manufacturing plant, Mil and Antonov offered a very attractive proposal to the Mexican government and the Sukhoi offer was a secondary result of such deals.

Mexico has basicly decided to build aircraft from a NAFTA partner rather than from Russia and this reflects a political alliance with Canada and the US.