As an Israeli I can’t see Israel being one of the first export customers of the Raptor. If Japan, Australia and England will buy it, the price tag will get lower, which will make it affordable by more countries, and then, eventually, by Israel. Currently the price of a Raptor squadron is way too much for Israel, because it has much more urgent things to do with the aid money.

I can understand that, but do you actually think that Israel and the PA will be able to contain the terrorist threat in the near future? As I’ve come to understand things, the frustration which resides in the minds of many Palestinians will most likely continue to provide the circle of violence with momentum. Fed by Israeli military incursions, civilian casualties, the presence of Israeli settlers etc., how do you expect the level of frustration to decline enough for terrorism to cease?

By first finding a pragmatic Palestinian leader with real power, and letting him prove that he is capable of controling the civilian population and taking all of the weapons from the Palestinian terror organizations. This is where Abu Mazzan failed. Until the arrival of such leadership, what Israel has to do is to do is get all of the settlers out of the remoted settlements, except the major settlements blocks, and keep the army inside. That would make this occupation more conventional. The settlements are a relic from a time when some Israeli leaders told people to go and live there, thinking that one day these areas will be a part of the state. It’s time to make this occupation from a colonial attempt to a security measure.

I realize that many Israelis suffer due to terrorism, and I support Israel’s right to, with reasonable efforts, defend its citizens from e.g. the terrorist threat, but how on Earth do you expect this threat to disappear as long as Israel continues to maintain its pressure on the Palestinian population? Surely most Israelis are well aware of the fact that the occupation effectively feeds the beforementioned mechanism which is at work here, just as most Palestinians should know that terrorism won’t solve anything?

My opinion is that there is no other choice but keeping them occupied until they could be able to control themselves. Having dozens of “military” organizations is not the way to go. Arafat came closest of being a responsible leader who had the support of his people, but made the mistake of thinking that terrorism is a tool for negotiations. Once the majority of Palestinians realize that their way for prosperity, security and statehood is through negotiation, only then will peace begin to have a chance.
The pressure on the Palestinian population is a result of the Palestinians giving the terrorists their approval for their actions. The first step for the easing of the pressure on the civil pop. is for the Palestinians to denounce terrorism.

I gather that the issue of defence is among the reasons why Israel sustains its presence on the Western Bank. In simple terms, this measure itself is among the factors which trigger the very threat which it is designed to counter. Am I getting somewhere with this?

This is the tragety of the conflict.

In a previous discussion, I recall that you mentioned something about an increasing distance between most Israelis and the settlers. How is this relationship developing? Are the levels of public acceptance and support for the settlers declining in any way?

It’s an interesting time in Israel. Olmert plans a second disengagement, while the first clearly failed. I don’t think he’ll have enough support to pull this through. I think that while most Israelis realize today that the majority of settlements have to be demolished, they won’t support his plan. Once again, we’ll have to wait for a real Palestinian partner for a real agreement. Anything alse will result in more terror and death, and will eventually fail. If you think that the Israeli attack in Gaza as a result of the Qassams in southern Israel is harsh, wait until you’ll see the Israeli response of rockets at Tel Aviv.

to sum it up, for now, the best way to go is to convert the Israeli occupation of the West Bank strictly to a security measure, while Israel should do the best to support Palestinian leaders who will be willing to take responsiblity and stop terrorism. It might be Abu Mazzan, as he still has a lot of support in the Palestinian crowd, but it also might be someone alse.

Gollevainen’s special quiz of the week….Quess the name of the country??

A country with democratic and human rights to just one certain religious groups, Formed on stealed land form others, have driven few million people in to exile, occupates territority of other sovreing lands, opress the people in the occupated territory by not denying them the very basis of human rights and realistic means of normal living

fits right in to the neighborhood??

1) Israel has a legal equality for all of its citizens.
2) Israel’s land was gained in one of the following ways: Bought, given by the UN, and won by war. None was stolen. All of the aforementioned ways were used legally in other parts of the world.
3) The more serious estimates as for the number of Palestinian refugees who fled from the land range from 400,000 to 800,000. In which case, not “few million people”.
4) The Israeli law does not extend to the West Bank and Gaza as those were never annexed. Therefore, it doesn’t sees itself obliged to give the Palestinians the same rights as Israelis, even though the world sees Israel responsible for the Palestinians’ condition. But the truth is that that all violations of human rights in the occupied territories are a direct results of the conflict, and therefore are the shared responsiblity of Israel and the Palestinians themselves.

So people dont want to talk about numbers 😉 , POINT MADE :D, lets move on…

As if Israel has stopped assasinations, what you expect? Expect them to sit and quit while you pick and kill them off knowing you will kill civilians…you want them to sit back while IDF soldiers empty whole magazines into young girls and get away with it in courts…you want them to sit back while Palestinian children are ‘shot in the head’. ? and then you dont exactly remain a civilian after serving in the army. Its like a criminal shooting 3 people and living freely 5 years later.

The whole “who started” point is like the egg and the chicken question, unless you are asking it from a certain point in time to another. Let’s take the disengagement – we left Gaza to the last inch according to international law. There was an unofficial ceasefire in place, made by Hamas. Every once in a while rockets were still flying to Israel, but it chose not to retaliate. Then the Qassams began to land by dozens, and only then did Israel begin to fire artillery to Gaza, aimed at the Palestinians firing them.
During that time the assasinations and arrests were limited to people who were involved in the actual planning of terror attacks – do you really expect Israel to do nothing when it knows about people who plan to execute terror attacks whose goal is to kill Israeli civilians?
In none of the above actions did Israel had an objective to kill unarmed civilans, but those kind of things happen. If someone ever told you that war is not dirty, he’s the greatest liar you’ve met. Civilians are being killed in almost every single conflict, and in larger numbers than here. Israel always regrets the killing of innocent people, but again, this is one of the worst side effects of war.

Yep, Palestinians launched V-uber back in 20s and 30s to kill Jews.

Independant monitors think Palestinian family was killed on beach my Israeli shelling. And what cease fire are you talking about? Israel never declared any cease fire, it was the Hamas, which was forced to break it after the targeted murder of that family…We know Israeli shells are v. accurate and they know exactly where its going to land and on what its going to land. What matters is Olmert needs some upping of himself since Sharon is having a time of his life, people wanted war mongers, now they are all happy.

Again, egg and chicken. Only that as I said, the artilley fire is a result of the Qassam. And by the way, you can’t be as accurate as you think in artillery. You can fire at a certain point, but you can’t actually see it.

Its not only about Gaza here, More of West Bank is being stolen, same goes for East Jerusalem.

Wanna know my personal opinion? Israel has to get rid of most of east Jerusalem, and fast, and Gaza is a hell hole I don’t want to ever visit. The West Bank is a different thing. Want to know why? because when it comes to this part of land, I have to be selfish. Why? because if we’ll give this land to anything less than a Palestinian country with zero terrorists in it, I won’t feel safe. This land has to be given to Palestinian control only under a real agreement, under which Israel could make sure its civilian and industrial center is safe. Until then, we’ll have to stay in most of it.

Killing Civilians is not the only form of terrorism. Ask Israeli F-16s for other forms of terrorism. Olmert said no one in Gaza should be able to sleep, THAT is terrorism, that is collective punishment. People who went through Holocaust…are now using collective punishment..against others, its an insult to the victims of Holocaust, atleast respect them if you dont consider Palestinians humans, atleast respect your ancestors.

There is a very small number of things done by Israel and the IDF in Gaza which don’t have a very realistic goal behind it which has something to do with fighting terrorism. I’m ashamed of these few things. But all in all, the activity being done in Gaza has my support.

Lets no even talk about which territory belongs to whomee.

Alright, let’s not. There’s nothing to talk about anyway, the place where the army position is located is a kibbutz which never was Palestinian territory (and don’t tell me that “all of the land was Palestinian once”, we both know that’s not true – before the establishment of Israel, Jews bought the land where they settled from the local Arab Sheikhs) and will never be, nor was ever claimed to be Palestinian under any negotiation.

Palestinians caught Shalit before he and his tank party could carry out terror attacks in Palestine and execute them. So Palestine’s capturing and killing of Israeli terrorists is justified. The capturing/killing of innocent people is terrorism – the capturing/killing of armed terrorists who plan attacks on Palestine is not.

Really? do you know what that tank was doing there?
The first time Israel entered Gaza with tanks after the disengagement was after Shalit’s kidnapping. The tank he was in was simply watching the border. And besides, even if you think that Israel carries out terrorism, you still can’t call soldiers of a regular army “terrorists”. If you would have called every army that ever accidentaly killed civilans “terrorist”, there would have been no major army today that wouldn’t be “terrorist” under your definition.

next point..
How many Palestinian prisoners are in Israeli jails…without Trial..Erez and I agree that capturing of innocent people is terrorism, I want to see how many Palestinian civilians are in Israeli jail without trial and how many Israeli civilians are in Palestinian jails, we’ll assume the civilised notion of not guilty until proven….lets see… :diablo:

The only thing that bothers me is the amount of double standards involved here…the ‘free world’ sees one soldier captured, and does not sees hundreds of women and children in Israeli jails without trials in independant and neutral courts….is that the civilised western world? Uncle caveman was better.

People who have been captured as terrorists are not innocent even if they were indeed not trialed, not for me. Also, there are almost 10,000 Palestinians in Israeli jails, and as far as I know, most have been trialed.
As for Palestinian women and children in jail, except for certain cases, they deserve to be where they are. Keep in mind that the Palestinians do use women and children for terrorism.
By the way, the US army captures terrorist children in Iraq as well. What’s wrong with capturing people who try to kill you, even if they are so young?
I think, though, that such children deserve a second chance, but only after they’ll understand that terrorism is not the way to go.

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Well we gain independence in 1917…so having citizenship in 1918 pretty much makes them more “equal” than our working class at that time… :rolleyes:

yeas jews are not considered as a ethnic minority, but religious one…And me sounding like Iran’s president?? My point was that palestinians are suffering from crimes and misconducts of others…why should they pay for europeans wrongdoings??

Come on, this is not a discussion about Finland. Let’s say that the 2000 or so Jews of Finland were always well treated. That’s a drop in the ocean.

http://memri.org/bin/articles.cgi?Page=countries&Area=iran&ID=SP114806

How about gybsies??? There are more of them than jews but how come they are not entiteled to their own nation???

We finns have always tought all finnish speaking people living in here are one of us…So thats why we protected our jews during WWII altough we fought alongside nazis…(there where few released to the nazis, but only fraction of our jews were involved)

I’ve always thinked that “Israel” should have been formed somewhere near Germany, they ar ethe ones treating them worst so they should pay for it, not the arabs that had nothnig to do with any of the misseryes of jews…

Gypsies=Roma.

I’m not saying that all countries gave their Jews to the Nazis – but at some point in history, Jews were persecuted almost anywhere they settled. When it comes to Finland, the first Jews arrived there only in the 18th century. They were given full citizenship only in 1918.

About a Jewish homeland in Europe – I’m afraid to say that you sound exactly like the president of Iran. It’s probably because in Finland the Jews are generally not considered an ethnic minority.

Anyone got the numbers of how many Palestinians rockets been fired into Israel compared to the Shells and missiles Israel has fired into Palestinian terroritories…

Ok, IDF kills or ‘captures’ Palestinian gunmen, its not terrorism, but if Palestinians do the same its terrorism? Terrorism isnt involved one bit in Shalit’s case.

I want to see how many people have been killed by 100s of Qassams and I want that compared to how many civilians have been killed by Israeli shelling and Missile attacks.

The numbers will speak for themselves. Period.

If we’re talking since the disengagement, Palestinian terrorists have been firing rockets at Israeli cities even during the so called Hudna. It’s not about numbers here, it’s about who attacked first, when, and why. The terrorists were the ones who attacked first, it was during a ceasefire, in order to kill Israeli civilians. That’s all that matters.

The Palestinians attack unarmed civilians, and in Shalit’s case, a military position outside of their territory. Israel attacks people who are planning to carry out terror attacks before they manage to execute them, so Israel’s capturing and killing of Palestinian terrorist is justified. The capturing/killing of of innocent people is terrorism – the capturing/killing of armed terrorists who plan attacks on Israel is not.

Erez has Israel recognised Palestine with free borders, air , sea and land in their control?

There are millions in Gaza who cant sleep every night. Shocking you failed to see that. 1 Israeli family cannot be compared to entire population of Gaza, atleast not from a sane person like you Erez.

Israel didn’t recognize Palestine at all – there is currently no such thing in the real world. What it did recognize was the Palestinians’ right for such state.

As for the situation in Gaza, there are some things I disagree with that are being done there (one being the the sound made by Israeli fighter jets breaking the sound barrier, I think it’s just pointless), but as for the rest of the activity there, and especially the one whose goal is to release Gilad Shalit, I support it wholeheartedly. The Palestinian population suffers from these actions, and I’m sorry for that, but I’m also sorry to say that they brought it over themselves. I was a strong supporter of the disengagement last year, but now even I admit that it was a serious mistake (except for the destruction of the Israeli settlements – I still believe we had nothing to do there). We left Gaza and were willing to let the Palestinians take control of it, but once we were out – they pulled us back in. By rockets first, and now by kidnapping.
Again, it’s a real shame that the Palestinian population is suffering, but who holds the resonsibility for that? Israel, or the Palestinian terrorists?

Jews…Israelis…understand that sometimes I use the terms interchangeably when discussing the situation, given that this appears to be as much a Jew/Muslim issue as it does an Israeli/Palestinian issue. In no way did I mean any slight to the Jewish religion by that remark.

I don’t know if you can refer to it as a Jew/Muslim issue, since just a bit over 50% of the world’s Jews are not Israelis, and most of the world’s Muslims are not Arabs, let alone Palestinians.

Seems to me that they place a certain degree of significance on the historical-religious context.

Well, I think they were using this as a symbol of the ancient Jewish presence in the land. If it was really something religious, you would have expected them to quote from the Bible of something. Most of the people who wrote this declaration, and David Ben Gurion who read it, were atheist, or had very little to do with Judaism. They were socialists, some even with a bit of communist background.

That’s my problem-I don’t believe religion (as in being Jewish) is a good enough reason to be owed your own homeland.

We’ve been through it before, and as I’ve already said, there is a distinction between Judaism and Jews. I’ve already shown that there are planty of evidences which clearly show the most of today’s Jews (not including converted Jews, such as Ethiopian Jews) are of Hebrew national origin.
And what alse could they be? Slavs? Aryans? Latins?
The truth of the matter is that you can’t really put them under any such definition. They are Semites, even though some of them are blue eyed blonds. 2000 years of exile from their home enviorment are a sure path to intermarriage, but because of the fact that they inherited their Judaism from their parent(s), and Judaism is not a missionary religion, most of today’s Jews can be genetically traced back to Levantine origin.

The Jews weren’t the only people persecuted in Europe. Are the others deserving of their own nation states simply because of the acts of one now-extinct regime?

They were the only national group which included millions of people througout Europe that I can think of that didn’t have their own homeland. The Roma are the closest I can think of, but even they don’t know exactly where they came from – probably from around India.
And can you think about one European regime where Jews lived in that didn’t persecute its Jewish inhabitants?

The operative word in your answer being “former”.

That’s the problem with this issue; Israelis think that for some inane reason they have a right to that plot of land and noone else does. Palestinians are wondering what the hell happened and how they’ve managed to end up with about 15% of the living space they had seventy years ago. Both sides are doing things to exacerbate the situation and make it worse (Israel arrests politicians not involved with the kidnapping, Palestinians throw rocks and blow things up, Israelis blow up city blocks, etc). Neither one is ever going to compromise because they both feel they are correct: Israel for having some belief that something with as much tangible form (and therefore credibility if you ask me) as my fartgas decreed that they own that land so it just has to be so, and Palestinians because they think they have constantly been wronged for over half a century.

Now, logically speaking, what argument holds more water? Fartgas being able to decree complete and total, everlasting land ownership, or having your land taken away gradually over half a century? If you think the former holds water, then you certainly have to appreciate the validity of the second. Not that the Palestinians don’t have certain flatulent issues themselves, but you get the point.

Of course, if you think the former holds water, I can always be persuaded to visit Taco Bell and come up with a sermon 😀

Incidentially, the Jews believe that they are the “chosen people” and deserve that land for themselves, right? Anybody want to draw a comparison between Aryans and the Sudetenland? You can really draw a lot of interesting parallels there, it’s both ironic and extremely interesting.

That’s untrue – Israel has acknowledged the Palestinians’ right for the land.

How the Palestinians ended up with what they now got, or what most of the world thinks they are entitled for (1967), is quite simple – they got around 45% of the land from the UN in ’47 (which is mistaking, because most of the Jewish part was desert. BTW, they also got much more from the British before that – and they refused again and again), refused, went to war, and lost more land.

You are talking about “the Jews” as if we have some collective mind. It’s well known that if you have three Jews you have four opinions 😉
So I can’t speak for anyone alse, but I’ve never personally met anyone that claims that we are the “chosen people” out of the biblical context. That term has been used to describe the chosing of the people of Israel by the Hebrew God to be the only people who must follow all of his rules. It doesn’t mean that Jews are superior in anyway to other human beings or deserve any special rights.
We don’t take Israel’s right to exist from the Bible, we take it from history:

ERETZ-ISRAEL [(Hebrew) – the Land of Israel, Palestine] was the birthplace of the Jewish people. Here their spiritual, religious and political identity was shaped. Here they first attained to statehood, created cultural values of national and universal significance and gave to the world the eternal Book of Books.

After being forcibly exiled from their land, the people kept faith with it throughout their Dispersion and never ceased to pray and hope for their return to it and for the restoration in it of their political freedom.

Impelled by this historic and traditional attachment, Jews strove in every successive generation to re-establish themselves in their ancient homeland. In recent decades they returned in their masses. Pioneers, ma’pilim [(Hebrew) – immigrants coming to Eretz-Israel in defiance of restrictive legislation] and defenders, they made deserts bloom, revived the Hebrew language, built villages and towns, and created a thriving community controlling its own economy and culture, loving peace but knowing how to defend itself, bringing the blessings of progress to all the country’s inhabitants, and aspiring towards independent nationhood.

Your comparision of the Germans of the Sudetenland and Jews with Israel is similar only in a superficial way. While these people have always had a national German homeland, Germany, the Jewish people didn’t have any other homeland. Palestina/Land of Israel has always been considered the Jewish Historic homeland, and the birthplace of the nation, but even until today isn’t the actual, real homeland of most of the world’s Jews. But the fact remains that Jews have nowhere alse to go, no other place on earth which is their national homeland.
As far as I understand you, SOC, you don’t believe Israel has a right to exist because of the reasons it says it does, but only because of the fact that it’s now there. That’s also partially true. But the fact remains that for three generations of my family, both for the one who came from Europe and the two who were borned here, there is no other home. After being unwanted in Europe, some of us realized that we can’t continue to live under the rule foreign people. So for those people, who were forced away from their actual homelands, there was only one more address: The place they were praying to reach for generations, as their ancestors before – Israel. Not because of some dubious verses in the Bible, but because it is where the very real last Jewish kingdom existed and where their people were exiled from by the very real Roman Empire. The world has never seen a people going back to its historical homeland after 2000 years – it’s something new. And this people did not return to an empty land – there were Arabs there, some of which lived there for centuries, some for less time, but they too had no other home. The Zionist leadership has agreed to divide the land to Jewish and Arab countries, because they were a secular, realist movement, who saw millions of Jews whose life are threatened all over the world, and needed a place to go, and fast. It was the Arab Palestinian side who didn’t see that the Jewish people, much like them, had no other home, and no where alse to go to.

I got that – it’s just the militant rhetoric you’re bringing up here. I wouldn’t expect you to associate yourself with such phrases, i’ve got to know you here as a reasonable person to disagree with when it comes to Israel (unlike some other of your fellow countrymen , IMHO).

I apologize if what I said was too strong for you. My meaning wasn’t miltant at all. What I meant is that I don’t want to insult humanity by calling cold blooded murderers of women and children under the name ‘human beings’.
I indeed hope that your view of me as a reasonable person hasn’t changed, as this is what I always try to be…

One thing: i don’t understand anybody believing this recent invasion/incursion/penal expedition of the Israeli military into the Gaza strip is nothing more but an improvised response after the capture of that Israeli tanker. The penal expedition is just too large and too well-organised for that; there is no way even the omnicapable IDF could have setup such an operation in just a few days.

It’s an open secret that Israel is using the current events to deal with the rockets issue as well.

It was another excuse, that’s all. I wouldn’t be suprised if conspiracy theorists start coming out of the woodwork if the tanker is found alive but no captors are ever detained. You could make an interesting argument for an Israeli conspiracy put together to enable them to take down Hamas members and other assorted terrorists inside Palestine. Not that I’d believe it in any fashion, but I’m almost shocked it hasn’t come up already.

I understand that you don’t believe it yourself, but the reason it didn’t come up until now is the fact that there is one Israeli family in the Galilie who doesn’t sleep at night for the last ten days. Everybody realizes that this kidnapping is very real.